300 réponses à ce sujet

[AutumnGhost]

Lethys1 wrote...

According to the Indoc theory, the "destroy" option is the only way of breaking free from the Reapers.  Why, then, with a low Effective Military Score (between 0-1749) is the destroy option the only one that is offered?

So if you do the absolute minimum, you always overcome indoctrination?  That just makes no sense.

I really wish it was indoctrination theory, but it's not.  I believed in it about three days ago, but the level of writing required, the idea that all of what we saw was fake.....

And the idea that they sold us a game without an ending.  If Indoc Theory is true, we still need to fight off the Reapers.  Since no one made it to the actual Crucible, according to the theory, we might as well all be dead.

Edit: Many people think it has to do with that if Shep is weak (as shown by a low EMS score) then they no longer have to indoctrinate him.  

But why show him a hallucination at all if this is the case?  Why wouldn't they just kill him immediately then?  Why waste time showing him these images if he's so weak that he's not worth indoctrination?  Why even offer him the destroy option in his head, as people claim is the case?  It's just a waste, and Harbinger would probably be happier knowing the Shep knows the entire cycle is now doomed.

It's because the ending is so vague and ****ty with so many loopholes and iillogical, idiotic choices like synthesis (homogenous DNA, are you retarded?), and because it overall didn't make sense to anyone, it can only make sense if it's a hallucination and still only have any real meaningful impact as an ending if it's Sheperd fighting indoctrination.  It's hard for people to reconcile great writing in 99% of the game existing with an absurdly contrived  'the ending has to be bigger than the game!' ending.

However, Shepard is still probably useful as an indoctrinated agent to more easily win the war or perhaps they want to use his DNA to create that new Reaper. 

Modifié par AutumnGhost, 26 mars 2012 - 10:56 .

[schneeland]

The Smitchens wrote...
In the scientific community there's a saying.  A better theory can always exist.  That doesn't mean to say they throw them out completely, but rather they tweak them.  They keep the aspects that work and update the parts that don't.  Same thing here.  If it doesn't make sense then don't just throw the whole theory out.  Find a reason to make it fit with the rest.

The thing is if Bioware already had this figured out then they are very good at writing.  If they didn't and they wanted to see what the community came up with then we all have an opportunity to write the conclusion to ME3.  Can you think of a better way to engage the fan base in the creation of something?

While I totally agree with the first one (I believe, IT is currently the best explenation we have), I am afraid that either Bioware have prepared additional ending content in advance, thus proving IT or a similar explenation, or they don't. Starting with addtional content only after the release would possibly delay that content far too long.

[CavScout]

The Smitchens wrote...

I'm curious what everyone's going to say when they come out and reveal it was indoctrination.

What are you going to do when they don't?

[CavScout]

Lakeshow1986 wrote...

EMS could be the difference between fighting the Reapers off and frying your brain, I don't know. The FACT is that IDT solves A LOT of plot hole issues, but may have the odd thing that stands out unless BioWare confirm otherwise.

Indoctrination Theory doesn't solve anything... it just says it was all fake. You wasted 40 hours playing the game.

[The Smitchens]

CavScout wrote...

The Smitchens wrote...

I'm curious what everyone's going to say when they come out and reveal it was indoctrination.

What are you going to do when they don't?

Doesn't really matter to me either way.  If they confirm it then they play off the set of principles everyone has pieced together themselves.  If they don't then they give us a whole new set of principles to make sense of things with.  I merely think it's more likely they'll verify indoctrination as opposed to debunk it.

[Cyberfrog81]

They still want to study Shepard's mind even when he brings a much less impressive fleet. Harbinger was almost in love with Shep during and after ME2, after all. I assume that while Shepard proves stronger than TIM did before him, they don't need him alive as an agent. The choice is symbolically all Shepard can think of, but it doesn't matter. The Reapers have won.

And for the record, I'm not completely sold on IT, but it's the best anyone has come up with thus far. Yelling "lazy!" or "bad writing!" or "rushed!" (while any or all of this may be true) is simply not satisfying.

[magikbbg]

I thought you don't "wake up" with low ems. Maybe you think they fight is over and you let your guard down being fully indoctrinated. -long shot I know.

[Cant Planet]

I see this as an issue of the endgame mechanics and the endgame story being developed in two separate little boxes and then being kludged together at the end. A blow to the reputation of the team overseeing development, not so much a blow to IT per se.

[Phearmonger]

Interesting point. I've actually for a while felt that if this is an indoctrination sequence then the actual indoctrination attempt ended after the confrontation with TIM/Anderson. I don't know for sure what the rest would be, maybe Shep's mind trying to recover afterward and keep from falling into a coma/dying, or perhaps a mental warning about what the crucible would do (destroy the relays, etc) and having all three choices represent a forewarning of what would happen with each choice, so that when Shep finally made it to the Crucible he/she would be better informed as to what the choices amounted to. This is and always has been speculation. Of course, without IT, the same problem still exists. Control and Synthesis don't really seem to be any better solutions than Destroy in a literal interpretation, so why should they be added to the options with higher EMS, especially when the only ending that offers any hope of Shep's survival appears to be Destroy anyway?

Modifié par Phearmonger, 27 mars 2012 - 12:05 .

[lordofdogtown19]

Eh no theory is infallible, that's why it's a theory. It still makes more sense than the endings, sadly.

Anyway I think both sides have good arguments. For me I think you shouldn't get the best ending anyway if you don't have the highest EMS so I don't think this disproves IT completely

[CavScout]

The Smitchens wrote...

CavScout wrote...

The Smitchens wrote...

I'm curious what everyone's going to say when they come out and reveal it was indoctrination.

What are you going to do when they don't?

Doesn't really matter to me either way.  If they confirm it then they play off the set of principles everyone has pieced together themselves.  If they don't then they give us a whole new set of principles to make sense of things with.  I merely think it's more likely they'll verify indoctrination as opposed to debunk it.

But it does matter to you....

[CavScout]

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

Eh no theory is infallible, that's why it's a theory. It still makes more sense than the endings, sadly.

Anyway I think both sides have good arguments. For me I think you shouldn't get the best ending anyway if you don't have the highest EMS so I don't think this disproves IT completely

Why does EMS even matter if the whole thing is in your head?

[IronSabbath88]

Even Harbinger thinks if you went into London with that low of EMS you aren't worth his time.

[The Smitchens]

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

Eh no theory is infallible, that's why it's a theory. It still makes more sense than the endings, sadly.

Anyway I think both sides have good arguments. For me I think you shouldn't get the best ending anyway if you don't have the highest EMS so I don't think this disproves IT completely

The best argument I'd heard was if you have a lower EMS then you've done less in the game and pretty much blazed through it so the indoctrination process just didn't have time to fully seed itself into Shepard's head.  And that on its own makes sense.

[CavScout]

The Smitchens wrote...

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

Eh no theory is infallible, that's why it's a theory. It still makes more sense than the endings, sadly.

Anyway I think both sides have good arguments. For me I think you shouldn't get the best ending anyway if you don't have the highest EMS so I don't think this disproves IT completely

The best argument I'd heard was if you have a lower EMS then you've done less in the game and pretty much blazed through it so the indoctrination process just didn't have time to fully seed itself into Shepard's head.  And that on its own makes sense.

Yes it makes total sense to say that if you skip the war preparations and just go to the end with a poorly built military force that it makes it easier to win.

[Leafs43]

If you don't wake up i.e. get the breathing ending because of low EMS, it means while you resisted the reapers indoctrination but in the end it killed you because it made your brain pudding.

Modifié par Leafs43, 27 mars 2012 - 12:26 .

[CavScout]

Leafs43 wrote...

If you don't wake up i.e. get the breathing ending, it means while you resisted the reapers indoctrination but in the end it killed you because it made your brain pudding.

The Reapers are still dead....

[Leafs43]

CavScout wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

If you don't wake up i.e. get the breathing ending, it means while you resisted the reapers indoctrination but in the end it killed you because it made your brain pudding.

The Reapers are still dead....

If its all in your head, they are very much alive.

[Aimi]

I thought that the reason indoctrination theory was wrong is because indoctrination doesn't work that way, at even a cursory glance.

[lordofdogtown19]

CavScout wrote...

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

Eh no theory is infallible, that's why it's a theory. It still makes more sense than the endings, sadly.

Anyway I think both sides have good arguments. For me I think you shouldn't get the best ending anyway if you don't have the highest EMS so I don't think this disproves IT completely

Why does EMS even matter if the whole thing is in your head?

Casue if the IT theory is true then Shepard would be dead in the rubble in London without sufficient miliaty strength to hold the reaper forces back from his body.

Plus in ME2, the ending was determined by loyal squadmates and picking said squadmates for the right job. So having high EMS would effect the ending similarly

[The Smitchens]

CavScout wrote...

The Smitchens wrote...

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

Eh no theory is infallible, that's why it's a theory. It still makes more sense than the endings, sadly.

Anyway I think both sides have good arguments. For me I think you shouldn't get the best ending anyway if you don't have the highest EMS so I don't think this disproves IT completely

The best argument I'd heard was if you have a lower EMS then you've done less in the game and pretty much blazed through it so the indoctrination process just didn't have time to fully seed itself into Shepard's head.  And that on its own makes sense.

Yes it makes total sense to say that if you skip the war preparations and just go to the end with a poorly built military force that it makes it easier to win.

These words you mention.  They are not native to my mouth.

I didn't say that.  I said that it makes it easier to fight the reaper's influence on the mind.  What it comes down to is you have a weaker military with stronger personal mental strength against the reapers vs. stronger military with more time for the reapers to influence Shepard's mind.

[CavScout]

Leafs43 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

If you don't wake up i.e. get the breathing ending, it means while you resisted the reapers indoctrination but in the end it killed you because it made your brain pudding.

The Reapers are still dead....

If its all in your head, they are very much alive.

It seems that indoctrination is the excuse for anything that tears apart the Indoctrination Theory....

[CavScout]

The Smitchens wrote...

CavScout wrote...

The Smitchens wrote...

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

Eh no theory is infallible, that's why it's a theory. It still makes more sense than the endings, sadly.

Anyway I think both sides have good arguments. For me I think you shouldn't get the best ending anyway if you don't have the highest EMS so I don't think this disproves IT completely

The best argument I'd heard was if you have a lower EMS then you've done less in the game and pretty much blazed through it so the indoctrination process just didn't have time to fully seed itself into Shepard's head.  And that on its own makes sense.

Yes it makes total sense to say that if you skip the war preparations and just go to the end with a poorly built military force that it makes it easier to win.

These words you mention.  They are not native to my mouth.

I didn't say that.  I said that it makes it easier to fight the reaper's influence on the mind.  What it comes down to is you have a weaker military with stronger personal mental strength against the reapers vs. stronger military with more time for the reapers to influence Shepard's mind.

So yeah, weaker military = easier win.

[ryuasiu]

Lethys1 wrote...
But why show him a hallucination at all if this is the case?  Why wouldn't they just kill him immediately then?  Why waste time showing him these images if he's so weak that he's not worth indoctrination?  Why even offer him the destroy option in his head, as people claim is the case?  It's just a waste, and Harbinger would probably be happier knowing the Shep knows the entire cycle is now doomed.[/b]

Its not necesarily harby showing him. Its more likely the final visions he has himself before he dies since you do die if your EMS is low.

Aditionally the other idea why destroy is the only option with low EMS is becuase indoc. is a very slow process. Since you did not spend the time to collect assets you were under the influance less. I personally like this idea since high EMS gets you the 'best' solution synthsis, wich is full and complete indoc

[The Smitchens]

CavScout wrote...

The Smitchens wrote...

CavScout wrote...

The Smitchens wrote...

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

Eh no theory is infallible, that's why it's a theory. It still makes more sense than the endings, sadly.

Anyway I think both sides have good arguments. For me I think you shouldn't get the best ending anyway if you don't have the highest EMS so I don't think this disproves IT completely

The best argument I'd heard was if you have a lower EMS then you've done less in the game and pretty much blazed through it so the indoctrination process just didn't have time to fully seed itself into Shepard's head.  And that on its own makes sense.

Yes it makes total sense to say that if you skip the war preparations and just go to the end with a poorly built military force that it makes it easier to win.

These words you mention.  They are not native to my mouth.

I didn't say that.  I said that it makes it easier to fight the reaper's influence on the mind.  What it comes down to is you have a weaker military with stronger personal mental strength against the reapers vs. stronger military with more time for the reapers to influence Shepard's mind.

So yeah, weaker military = easier win.

Oh... yeah... I guess so.  In a manner of speaking yeah.  Touche.