300 réponses à ce sujet

[CavScout]

ryuasiu wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Not liking the ending =/= Evidence of Indoctrination Theory

The ending is what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. You not liking it doesn't make it "invalid".

Actually I loved the ending and I cant see what comes next. Problebly comes from loving other mind provoking endings in the likes of blade runner and inception. Any other IT beliver myths I can help you bust?

You dont' love the ending, that's why you ascribe to a fan theory so you can disregard the current ending.

[The Smitchens]

CavScout wrote...

The Smitchens wrote...
Well.  To an extent yeah.  A lot of it would have been in his head.  That's the point.  It's indoctrination.  It's all about everything that is in his head.  It's all about Shepard's slowly deteriating state of mind.  That's the underlying idea of what ME3 in its entirety is about.  All the pressure of the galaxy on him coupled with the reaper influence.

Indoctrination theory isn't just an explanation for the end, but a suggested secondary plot to the game as a whole.  The reapers finding his weaknesses and exploiting them to lure him to their side.

It's a silly fan made reaction that basically says the game you just played was a waste of time. It replaces a "bad" game ending with a infinitely worse ending (or some might say, no ending).

How is something that encourages people to think silly?  Part of what makes indoctrination so great is because the fans thought it up.  Armed with nothing more than brains and obsession the fans observed, compared, and pieced together a very stable suggested interpretation.

You're saying thinking is silly.  How?   NNGNGNNAAAA *head rockets off shoulders in a fountain of blood*

[ryuasiu]

leapingmonkeys wrote...

The whole IT thing is just silly. Laser beams do not indoctrinate - they kill you. Go redo the Quarian home world quest - you can get hit by one of those Reaper laser beams there as well - and you die.

We're told that IT takes time, that one experiences head aches, the feeling of being watched, etc - none of which happened to Shepard.

IT is simply the final, tragic spasms of an ME fan's mind before it collapses under the knowledge of having been lied to and lead to a nihilistic dead end by Bioware where everything you have done is completely irrelevant.

You call it silly but atleast you bring up good points and trying to be intelgiant about the discussion.

You are fully right on that, but it was never shown hitting you directly. the force of it hitting near you could have knocked him out. still a slight hole though

It does take time, but you spend alot of time gathering assets to fight the reapers. Also keep in mind harby talks to you inside your head throughout ME2. I am sure that would not help matters

Actually if IT holds up everything you did was relevant, We just have to wait till april to see how that works.

[CavScout]

Yahmosa007 wrote...
Increase in sheps willpower via increasing his connection with the galaxy via war assets and recruiting result in the reapers being able to change his feelings into more choices that result in indoctrination.

The more willpower Shep has, the more easily the Reapers can confuse him?

[hexediter]

CavScout wrote...

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

Eh no theory is infallible, that's why it's a theory. It still makes more sense than the endings, sadly.

Anyway I think both sides have good arguments. For me I think you shouldn't get the best ending anyway if you don't have the highest EMS so I don't think this disproves IT completely

Why does EMS even matter if the whole thing is in your head?

Without an army to protect you while your unconcious, they'd kill you no?  Also do they even need to indoctrinate you if your army is easily defeated?  The reapers have already won, your fleet is destroyed, humans are harvested, game over you lose.  Star child even asks you "Why are you here?" at low EMS instead of saying "wake up".

[Yahmosa007]

The Indoctrination part that got scrapped was Shepard fighting against it with game mechanics, Which bioware said, would be hard to implement. So they went with trying to trick the player into choosing to be indoctrinated. and once you choose to give in its game over, Shepard loses. That's why the game ends there.

It was a while before people figured out the suicide mission and how to get a perfect ending, yet shepard could still die in 2.

[NReed106]

CavScout wrote...

NReed106 wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Not liking the ending =/= Evidence of Indoctrination Theory

The ending is what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. You not liking it doesn't make it "invalid".

Agreed, the Indoc theory is picking up the pieces of a past plot point in the game abandoned but not "cleaned up/removing the evidence of its existence".  The endings we got are just that, the current endings. 

That said, with enough effort they could be changed to make the indoc true and release a real ending after it

You can't even support the Indoctrination Theory was intended enough for them to put "evidence" in the game for it...

False: Why are there ghostly trees as Shep walks his way to the beam? Why does his gun have infinite ammo? How did Anderson beat him to the conduit? Where did TIM come from? Why is the catalyst's voice both fem and male shep echoing? How did that child survive a reaper's laser blast? Why do we hear random growls when the child disappears and Shep's concentration turned to Anderson? Why does no one acknowledge the child?

Essentially all the evidence for the indoc theory just surmounts to a point where it can be considered a likely possibility it was a past plot point that was removed.  Hell the "Finals hour " app says they wanted to make that part of the game but couldn't implement it with normal game mechanics.

Modifié par NReed106, 27 mars 2012 - 01:39 .

[noobcannon]

Lethys1 wrote...

According to the Indoc theory, the "destroy" option is the only way of breaking free from the Reapers.  Why, then, with a low Effective Military Score (between 0-1749) is the destroy option the only one that is offered?

So if you do the absolute minimum, you always overcome indoctrination?  That just makes no sense.

I really wish it was indoctrination theory, but it's not.  I believed in it about three days ago, but the level of writing required, the idea that all of what we saw was fake.....

And the idea that they sold us a game without an ending.  If Indoc Theory is true, we still need to fight off the Reapers.  Since no one made it to the actual Crucible, according to the theory, we might as well all be dead.

Edit: Many people think it has to do with that if Shep is weak (as shown by a low EMS score) then they no longer have to indoctrinate him.  

But why show him a hallucination at all if this is the case?  Why wouldn't they just kill him immediately then?  Why waste time showing him these images if he's so weak that he's not worth indoctrination?  Why even offer him the destroy option in his head, as people claim is the case?  It's just a waste, and Harbinger would probably be happier knowing the Shep knows the entire cycle is now doomed.

oh wow. this thread again.

if you choose the destroy one with low ems you dont take the breath under the rubble at the end. starboy also has slightly different dialouge.

[RSX Titan]

I have no problem with the current ending aside from the lack of polish and I'm starting to believe IT has some weight to it. You don't have to hate the ending to see how IT could be plausible.

Modifié par RSX Titan, 27 mars 2012 - 01:39 .

[hexediter]

CavScout wrote...

Yahmosa007 wrote...
Increase in sheps willpower via increasing his connection with the galaxy via war assets and recruiting result in the reapers being able to change his feelings into more choices that result in indoctrination.

The more willpower Shep has, the more easily the Reapers can confuse him?

EMS is not willpower that is wrong EMS is exactly what it says it is.  The more EMS shepard has, the harder the Reapers try to indoctrinate him.  Shepard is more and more valuable the higher your EMS.

[noobcannon]

The Smitchens wrote...

CavScout wrote...

The Smitchens wrote...
Well.  To an extent yeah.  A lot of it would have been in his head.  That's the point.  It's indoctrination.  It's all about everything that is in his head.  It's all about Shepard's slowly deteriating state of mind.  That's the underlying idea of what ME3 in its entirety is about.  All the pressure of the galaxy on him coupled with the reaper influence.

Indoctrination theory isn't just an explanation for the end, but a suggested secondary plot to the game as a whole.  The reapers finding his weaknesses and exploiting them to lure him to their side.

It's a silly fan made reaction that basically says the game you just played was a waste of time. It replaces a "bad" game ending with a infinitely worse ending (or some might say, no ending).

How is something that encourages people to think silly?  Part of what makes indoctrination so great is because the fans thought it up.  Armed with nothing more than brains and obsession the fans observed, compared, and pieced together a very stable suggested interpretation.

You're saying thinking is silly.  How?   NNGNGNNAAAA *head rockets off shoulders in a fountain of blood*

[CavScout]

hexediter wrote...Explain why when shepard shoots Anderson that Anderson does not show a visable wound, but later shepard is oozing blood in the exact spot he just shot Anderson.

Shep was wounded long before that scene. You can't even prove a bullet wound, let alone a magical bullet that goes one way and turns around another...

Explain why in the "shepard takes a breath on earth" cutscene how he survived an explosion on the citadel, re-entry through the atmosphere, and landing at terminal velocity.

Is he on Earth?

And if he is, how does that prove Indoctrination and not just some heroic survival?

Explain why the destruction of the mass relays doesn't destroy the systems they are in like in arrival.

Oh, maybe the lack of ASTEROIDS hitting them....

Explain why even when shepard talks his/her voice has an echo to it.

Not sure what you mean... and this is proof of indoctrination how?

Explain what the Normandy is doing and how your squadmates walked off of it.

Who knows, unexplained scene is unexplained. How does this prove indoctrination?

Good luck with all of that...

Didn't need luck.

[ryuasiu]

CavScout wrote...

ryuasiu wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Not liking the ending =/= Evidence of Indoctrination Theory

The ending is what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. You not liking it doesn't make it "invalid".

Actually I loved the ending and I cant see what comes next. Problebly comes from loving other mind provoking endings in the likes of blade runner and inception. Any other IT beliver myths I can help you bust?

You dont' love the ending, that's why you ascribe to a fan theory so you can disregard the current ending.

LOL wow...I dont like the ending becuase I spent 2 min thinking about it and discuss it with other players. You do realize thats what people have done for inception, blade runner, and shutter island right? or how about 2001 a space odyssey? Oh you trolls, stay classy. though I will still listen to ya if you come up with something better then IT. I love having inteligant discussions about stuff like this

[Yahmosa007]

CavScout wrote...

Yahmosa007 wrote...
Increase in sheps willpower via increasing his connection with the galaxy via war assets and recruiting result in the reapers being able to change his feelings into more choices that result in indoctrination.

The more willpower Shep has, the more easily the Reapers can confuse him?

Yes, just look at the whole idea of the kid, The reapers use this to play off of shepards emotions and the idea he can't save everyone. The more people you become connected with throught the series (higher ems) adds to this.

The reapers use your own mind agaisnt you.

[Rafe34]

CavScout wrote...

The Smitchens wrote...
Well.  To an extent yeah.  A lot of it would have been in his head.  That's the point.  It's indoctrination.  It's all about everything that is in his head.  It's all about Shepard's slowly deteriating state of mind.  That's the underlying idea of what ME3 in its entirety is about.  All the pressure of the galaxy on him coupled with the reaper influence.

Indoctrination theory isn't just an explanation for the end, but a suggested secondary plot to the game as a whole.  The reapers finding his weaknesses and exploiting them to lure him to their side.

It's a silly fan made reaction that basically says the game you just played was a waste of time. It replaces a "bad" game ending with a infinitely worse ending (or some might say, no ending).

I think you spend more time trying to convince people that IT is wrong than most ITers do trying to convince people IT is right. Why do you care?

Honestly, you're completely wrong, it's a far better ending than the one we got. And we don't have the real ending yet, so the idea that we have no ending is just garbage, as we've explained a hundred times it seems.

But even if its not true, why do you care so much? People are happier believing that BW didn't utterly destroy the ME franchise with a 10 min sequence than believing that they did. And all you seem to do is insult the people who've put a lot of time into coming up with evidence for the theory, presenting zero counter-evidence, or if you do present a piece, when the argument is answered, your response is to fall back to an insult then.

You need to learn how to debate, bro.

[Cucobr]

CavScout wrote...

Cucobr wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Indoctrination Theory says that nothing can invalidate Indoctrination Theory because it will just be attributed to Indoctrination Theory. You have folks setting up Indoctrination Theory being prove by Indoctrination Theory.

Show me ONE failure of IT.

This is the common tactic of all conspiracy types, they demand you disprove their theory instead of actually supporting it.

The failure of Indoctrination Theory is there is no evidence for Indoctrination Theory.

see this video.



cheers.

[CavScout]

Rafe34 wrote...

Lethys1 wrote...

tommythetomcat wrote...

Dare I say there is...

Lots of speculation for everyone in this thread

Actually, I'd say it's the opposite.  The thread completely dismantles nearly 20 mins worth of evidence of Indoc Theory in one sentence.  It makes it clear that the endings are just awful and not open to interpretation.  

The "speculation" referred to by devs has to do with, oh man what cool planet are they on, or, wow wonder how the turians and quarians will live.  Not whether Shep is indoctrinated.

No it doesn't, lol.

What an arrogant statement.

So one plothole that fifteen people have told you how to fix dismantles the entire thing, but 15 plotholes in the original ending doesn't show anything?

IT is not a perfect ending. It is the best ending, in terms of the one that fixes the ending the best.

Please list the 15 plot holes. Before wasting time, be sure you understand what plot hole means.

[hexediter]

CavScout wrote...

Sirartistic wrote...

Also, you guys are forgetting one major thing. If you have a low ems, you will NOT get the ending where Shepard awakes! That means he died.

Yet the Reapers are still destroyed. That's a win.

In his dream they are (along with everyone else).  In reality I'd assume they are happily turning humanity into a reaper because you've lost.  They don't even need to indoctrinate you, because your shepard is full of fail.

[Vehemyth]

hexediter wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Yahmosa007 wrote...
Increase in sheps willpower via increasing his connection with the galaxy via war assets and recruiting result in the reapers being able to change his feelings into more choices that result in indoctrination.

The more willpower Shep has, the more easily the Reapers can confuse him?

EMS is not willpower that is wrong EMS is exactly what it says it is.  The more EMS shepard has, the harder the Reapers try to indoctrinate him.  Shepard is more and more valuable the higher your EMS.

Which means that EMS is still important because yes if IT is correct then the battle is not over, just the one for Shepard's mind. EMS makes the Reapers try harder to indoctrinate him because he is closer to destroying them.

[Inujade]

Ok, here's my theory as to why the 'destroy' option is the easiest to achieve.

Game logic. Just like when the colours for paragon and renegade are switched (Anderson red and Illusive Man blue? That is no coincidence)...it's another way to trick the player, because a veteran gamer will always assume the easiest option is the 'worst' one.

It wouldn't be the first time a game has used a taken-for-granted game mechanic and used it to obscure a part of the plot...I mean, think back to the first Bioshock, would you kindly.

[CavScout]

Rafe34 wrote...

CavScout wrote...It's not confusion, it's utter amazment that people think that by invoking Indoctrination Theory nothing can invalidate because well whatever
invalidate Indoctrination Theory is just proof of the Indoctrination Theory!

It's a sophistry ladden argument.

What?

It's not sophistry at all, lol.

It's a matter of saying, "Look, there's a ton of things in the game that point to this being an attempt to indoctrinate Shepard. Maybe it is. Let's run with that theory and see how it fits the rest of the evidence. Oh look. It fits the rest of evidence very well. There are a few unresolved matters, but is it a better fit than the endings we have? Why yes, yes it is. Okay, let's run with that until told otherwise."

Perfectly and completely logical. Unless someone is saying IT is proven true beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The argument is really easy to follow- Bioware wrote a fantastic game. IT is more logical and has far less plotholes than the original ending. Thus, Bioware intended IT. - as a working theory, mind you, not as proof.

Now based on what they've said, I don't think IT actually occurred, but saying it's worse than the original ending, or saying that one single plothole invalidates it when the original ending has a dozen is just fail logic. The fans created a better ending in a week than BW did in two years, lol.

It's utter sophistry. Not liking the actual endings IS NOT PROOF for the Indoctrination Theory.

Indoctrination Theory doesn't have "less plot holes" it creates a massive one by essentially saying the game doesn't have an ending. Claiming "it's in his head" doesn't make plot holes go away...

[The Smitchens]

CavScout wrote...

Shep was wounded long before that scene. You can't even prove a bullet wound, let alone a magical bullet that goes one way and turns around another...

Ever seen The Matrix?  The fiction of The Matrix argued that just because something was happening in your head your mind made it real and thus falling off a building would cause a physical reaction.  A similar argument could easily be translated to this.

CavScout wrote...

And if he is, how does that prove Indoctrination and not just some heroic survival?

Well.  He wasn't floating out in space.  Gravity.  He was laying on something.  If the citadel broke to pieces like we saw he'd just be floating in a vacuum where there is no oxygen for him to take a quick breath from.

CavScout wrote...
Oh, maybe the lack of ASTEROIDS hitting them....

Yeah, because the image of the Milky Way at the end when we saw the relays blowing up they certainly didn't show a diameter of lightyears upon lightyears.  Oh wait.  They did.

Modifié par The Smitchens, 27 mars 2012 - 01:47 .

[hexediter]

Deganis76 wrote...

The reason I disagree with indoctrination is this: wouldn't it have been a heck of a lot easier for Harbinger to just shoot a second death ray to vaporize Shepard and be done with it?

This is true, but it's also true if IT is not what happened.  It's a plot hole not matter what you assume lol.

[CavScout]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

leapingmonkeys wrote...

The whole IT thing is just silly. Laser beams do not indoctrinate - they kill you. Go redo the Quarian home world quest - you can get hit by one of those Reaper laser beams there as well - and you die.

We're told that IT takes time, that one experiences head aches, the feeling of being watched, etc - none of which happened to Shepard.

IT is simply the final, tragic spasms of an ME fan's mind before it collapses under the knowledge of having been lied to and lead to a nihilistic dead end by Bioware where everything you have done is completely irrelevant.

Watch the video I linked at the top of the page. While Shepard never had the feelings of being haunted, that would have been a narrative give-a-way. I'm not a die-hard IT guy, but it does explain a lot, as well as why BW/EA said they wanted the community to discuss it, as well as the ridiculous deflection that's been going on.

So Shepard never shows signs of indoctrination because BioWare never wants to you see Shepard being indoctrinated... yet this is proof of indoctrination how?

[CavScout]

The Smitchens wrote...

CavScout wrote...
It's a silly fan made reaction that basically says the game you just played was a waste of time. It replaces a "bad" game ending with a infinitely worse ending (or some might say, no ending).

How is something that encourages people to think silly?

Birthers and Truthers encourage people to think and they're beyond silly. At least IT is harmless.

Part of what makes indoctrination so great is because the fans thought it up.  Armed with nothing more than brains and obsession the fans observed, compared, and pieced together a very stable suggested interpretation.

You're saying thinking is silly.  How?   NNGNGNNAAAA *head rockets off shoulders in a fountain of blood*

You're presuming there was something there to "piece together". You use Indoctrination Theory as proof for the evidence of Indoctrination Theory. It circular reasoning.