218 réponses à ce sujet

[Iwillbeback]

Arcian wrote...

bleachorange wrote...

I have to bring it up - TIM was partially indoctrinated for years, and he defeated it until he decided to modify himself like his soldiers - only then did the Reapers control him. It can be successfully combated.

Tell that to Rana Thanoptis. Sovereign indoctrinated her, but the Reapers deliberately left her with control of herself for 3 years making her believe she was free of it... until the Reapers arrived to start the cycle anew. Then they took control of her and made her murder several top asari officials.

So no. When the voices and hallucinations starts, it's too late. The Reapers might not take control right away, but at that point the mind is an open door for them that cannot be closed, not unless the victim kills itself. Shepard is no different.

I didn't know she did that.
Seeing the way Mass effect 3 goes I am not sure I care either.

[spz123]

I like how people know what can or cannot be done in a fictional universe.

Modifié par spz123, 26 mars 2012 - 06:13 .

[vasametropolis]

I cannot unsee the ending... sigh.

[Irishkev]

Paxcorpus wrote...

http://i39.tinypic.com/1gnlw2.jpg

If that is true then FU bioware why you ask? Let me tell you

1) this has been planned for months according to the leak so they never intendted to give us 16 different endings
2) They ending they describe in the DLC is  destroy  as any other choice is  Shep = dead 
3) Means the game was never finished as you don't introduce a last minute cast an leave a hanger at the ending they just want more money.
4) We all knew the ending was going to be post galaxy war as there is no way to get home.
5) the plot is shep's body lives for a 1000's years and then decied it time to stop people from building  AI machines last I checked the human body couldn't live pass lets say 200 years to be save of ME magic. so no one questions sheps long life and youth.
6) by the sounds of the DLC we will need to buy ME4 sorry mass shift to get clourse on what happen to the galaxy when we ****ed it up. Guess thats why they said keep ME3 saves.

[bleachorange]

Arcian wrote...

bleachorange wrote...

Arcian wrote...

TIM was indoctrinated, just not to the point where the Reapers could control him. Over time, TIM began to expose himself to their technology, making the indoctrination stronger and allowing the Reapers to influence him more and more. Towards the end of ME3, he has been fully indoctrinated.

Nowhere during this period did he "overcome" his indoctrination. Until the end of ME3, he wasn't even aware he was being indoctrinated at all. They made him think he was in complete control.

He was in complete control - until he tried to 'improve' himself by using reaper tech at the end of me3, per the video logs. don't tell me the reapers let him stop them in me2 all those times. that would be illogical, and not like the reapers at all.

Of course they didn't - TIM's indoctrination at that point wasn't strong enough to give them control. In ME3, TIM starts to surround himself with Reaper tech, which progresses his indoctrination and makes it stronger, allowing the Reapers to finally influence him.

I stated this in the post you replied to, but you selectively ignored it to prove your own point.

exactly my point, though. I'm using the same informatino as you, and coming to a different conclusion. you are saying it wasn't strong enough to give them control - what if shepard makes it long enough (years from TIM account) before succumbing? I think there is plenty enough time to overcome the indoctrination attempt, and destroy the reapers before shepard loses his/her mind to them. notice I said attempt there - your choices with the catalyst determine the success success or failure of the attempt.

admittedly, the low ems allowing only one option (depending on whether you kept the collector base or not) debunks the theory. I'm just debating the semantics of it for the sake of argument.

[Montana]

Don't know if this has been widely read, but this is a must-read imo.
(It concerns the writing)
jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/#comment-214

Read it, it's full of insightful comments about the writing in ME3, and especially about the ending.

[jimbo32]

Arcian wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Arcian wrote...
What I refuse to believe is that Shepard is capable of rejecting it, because according to EVERY SINGLE REFERENCE TO INDOCTRINATION, that's not possible. Once you're indoctrinated, you can't become unindoctrinateed. Simply. Not. Possible.

I can buy an ending where Shepard wakes up and is controlled by the Reapers, and where he/she tries to fight his/her allies and ends up shot. I can buy that Shepard, in this wounded state, manages to temporarily "snap out of it" for a few minutes, long enough to fire the Crucible, after which he/she asks a friend/LI to shoot him/her in the head to free him/her from the Reapers.

The problem with this is that there is literally NO ROOM for a Golden "Happy" Ending for Shepard, and I believe this game should have that if you maxed out the Total Military Strength.

THAT is why I hate this sh!tty theory.

2 thoughts:

1.  Isn't the whole point of Indoctrination theory that Shepard isn't actually indoctrinated yet?  IE, if you choose destroy, he resists indoctrination and holds onto his free will.

2. Is there established lore on how indoctrination works when every last reaper in the known universe is destroyed?

1: If the subject is experiencing hallucinations or hearing voices, it's too late. Indoctrination in the early stages is EXTREMELY subtle. You literally won't feel the effect or know when to avoid it. Then, you start hearing a hum. Soon, you start hearing voices and experience hallucinations, seeing shapes and shadows. Generally, after starting to hear the hum, you're screwed. Manuel from Eden Prime eventually became indoctrinated as well, and all he did was to hear the hum like everyone else on Eden Prime at the time.

2: The brain-damage is permanent, that's for sure. As for the Reapers having any influence over their slaves after death... as we saw in Arrival, the indoctrinees became extremely anxious and violent when the voices stopped, as if having become addicted to them. Dr Kenson outright tried to kill Shepard for denying her the Reapers. This implies indoctrinees go into frenzies when their connections to the "voices" are severed.

I suspect commands that are already given remain in effect until the death of the indoctrinee (like real-life brainwashing), even if the voices stop. A person who has simply been indoctrinated without being issued commands may retain control, but they're unlikely to be able to live a normal life ever again thanks to the damage caused to their brain and psyche.

All of your posts imply that you believe that the story is somehow immutable...as if the information that's been presented in the games, books, and comics can never be added to or adjusted depending on writer whim or fiat. No offense, but that's ridiculous.

If they want to say "Commander Shepard has been constantly and succesfully resisting indoctrination ever since his first encounter with Sovreign" or "Harbinger has been subtly trying to indoctrinate Shepard throughout ME3 (ie the dreams), which culminates with the final battle in London, etc", they aren't necessarily negating established canon by doing so. They would just be adding to it, which is how serialized fiction works.

My point is that just because something (in this case, indoctrination) has worked in a certain way throughout the material we have seen so far, that doesn't mean that everything else is contradictory. We aren't talking about them breaking the laws of physics.

spz123 wrote...

I like how people know what can or cannot be done in a fictional universe.

Exactly.

[bleachorange]

bump

[Elevas]

IT is even gong further than necessary. Just have Shepard wake up outside the beam. Maybe Harbinger's been taken down and he is helped by his comrades to the conduit.

[Njald]

Clearly Casey Hudson is pulling a "The Producers" on us. Deliberately torching the old fanbase and hoping for CoD players to come into the fold now that all us RPGers have been chased away.
The only people we see defending the ending are people who don't care much or people who don't pay much attention. Not sure what age group they belong to but I really wish they could stick to ALL the other games in the world that caters to people with short attention spans dreaming of the next "Biceps McBaddassery and his technicolour machinegunchainsaw".
Why did Bioware have to ****** on their own IP to cater to these people?

Modifié par Njald, 27 mars 2012 - 06:21 .

[Senario]

It is hard to say, but it is indeed bad writing. It seems that everything was thrown away at the last minute o-o. Which is confusing since most other major parts of the game were so....Amazing.

[StarcloudSWG]

It is bad writing. And it could very well be a "Torch it and run" situation, where Casey Hudson doesn't want to deal with the established lore anymore.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 27 mars 2012 - 06:28 .

[Big_Choppa]

I'm in amazement (horror, actually) that the endings were -this- bad.

These made the DA2 endings good, which is god awful.

Modifié par Big_Choppa, 27 mars 2012 - 06:35 .

[NeecHMonkeY]

The endings weren't great but they also weren't the only problems ME3 suffered due to poor writing. The game has some great moments that are brilliantly written, heartfelt and truly emotional but then there are other sections that are completely mediocre and shallow.

Shepard seems like a completely different character than the previous games and Vega is the equivalent of a cardboard standee. The Illusive Man also seemed to undergo a character change and not for the better - how is that he was more imposing when you were working with him in ME2 than when you're fighting against him in ME3?

[Tietj]

I agree that Shepard seems like a different character in this one. Actually one of my main problem is that the writers don't actually seem to like him very much. I got that feeling long before the ending, and it was just compounded by them.

[Jadebaby]

Bomma72 wrote...

Or indoctrination?

this ftw^

[NeecHMonkeY]

Tietj wrote...

I agree that Shepard seems like a different character in this one. Actually one of my main problem is that the writers don't actually seem to like him very much. I got that feeling long before the ending, and it was just compounded by them.

Yeah, I was wondering if it was just me who felt that way but now I see it isn't.