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Adding a happy ending IS breaking artistic intergrity.


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#526
R8edR

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boardnfool86 wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

Hmm,
1) Photoshopped Tali's face from stock image - CHECK
2) Photoshopped Stargazer background from stock image - CHECK
3) Apply the wrong theme to the ending AND screwed up its application - CHECK
4) Took content out of game and sell as DLC - CHECK
5) Shameless advertisement @ end for future DLC - CHECK

It's official, ME3 is not art - it's a product that may have a defective ending. The CONSUMERS are right, yet again.


4 is also false and unfair to bioware, they allow you to expand on a game that needs TWO discs the day it comes out and you complain? thanks to people like you DLC ready on day one will get delayed so we have to REPLAY the game or play DLC from post game scene - thanks BRO


I'm not 100% positive, but I believe Javik is already on the disc.  The character and all his interactions and voice is already on the on the disc.  The only thing the DLC has is the mission to unlock him.  They could have easily fit the 600mb mission onto the discs.

Everything seems to point to Javik being a main squad member, which bioware/ea decided later on in development that they can milk another $10 out of their customers.

#527
Promchek

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jreezy wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
In fact, ending the current universe and creating a new beginning IS A GOOD THING and a smart move. That needs to stay.


So commiting mass genocide for the greater good is a happy ending?  

What mass genocide?

All the refugies on the citadel. Dead cause it blows up and they have no worlds to go to, thanks to the reapers.

Most likely already dead before then. Anything the Reapers were doing isn't the purpose of my question anyway.

Anyone in the fleet that tries to take the long way home. Again slow death.

You're speculating here

The Normandy crew stuck on a unknown planet with limited food. More slow death.

Not genocide.

All the colonies. Wait for it......Slow death.

Says who?


says mighty voice of healthy common sense

#528
Coachdongwiffle

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so what? so what if your right? it still doesn't change the root of the problem. They promised multiple endings that would be changed depending on the choices we made and that was a lie. If they wanted bleak endings fine. But I want multiple bleak endings that are changed greatly depending on the choices I made.

#529
saracen16

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Promchek wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
In fact, ending the current universe and creating a new beginning IS A GOOD THING and a smart move. That needs to stay.


So commiting mass genocide for the greater good is a happy ending?  

What mass genocide?

All the refugies on the citadel. Dead cause it blows up and they have no worlds to go to, thanks to the reapers.

Most likely already dead before then. Anything the Reapers were doing isn't the purpose of my question anyway.

Anyone in the fleet that tries to take the long way home. Again slow death.

You're speculating here

The Normandy crew stuck on a unknown planet with limited food. More slow death.

Not genocide.

All the colonies. Wait for it......Slow death.

Says who?


says mighty voice of healthy common sense


The mighty voice of healthy common sense also said that planets also have plenty of farmland and crops and farm animals, as well as reduced populations as a result of the Reaper invasion. Yes, even Rannoch and Tuchanka have areas where green can flourish. Even Shala'Raan mentions it if you save both the Quarians and the Geth.

"Common sense" is about perspective. So, yeah... you're speculating.

#530
saracen16

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Coachdongwiffle wrote...

so what? so what if your right? it still doesn't change the root of the problem. They promised multiple endings that would be changed depending on the choices we made and that was a lie. If they wanted bleak endings fine. But I want multiple bleak endings that are changed greatly depending on the choices I made.


I'm seriously offended. You're telling me that curing the genophage and giving the Quarians a homeworld with the Geth are not endings to subplots, and that my choices in previous games and in the subplots themselves did not matter? The endings were woven throughout the game and my choices did matter. It is RIDICULOUS to say that it is possible to merge every single plot and sub-plot into the final ending and the choices you made in them.

Seriously...

#531
Zhen-Lin

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This guy must be one of those employees from bioware who is still trying to make a excuse for give us a bas ending.
Guys, let's just ignor him and support a happy ending:
http://social.biowar...826/20#10650011

#532
Vromrig

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No artistic integrity to currently speak of.

Argument has no merit. All attempts at art sold out with "Drink More Ovaltine" message at end.

#533
Greed1914

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Vromrig wrote...

No artistic integrity to currently speak of.

Argument has no merit. All attempts at art sold out with "Drink More Ovaltine" message at end.


Hey, when did you get back, Vromig?  Last I heard, you weren't going to be around anymore.  Good to see you.

Modifié par Greed1914, 26 mars 2012 - 08:58 .


#534
Vromrig

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Hey, when did you get back, Vromig? Last I heard, you weren't going to be around anymore. Good to see you.


Hope diminished, little faith left in Bioware.

But, part of community, cannot abandon.

#535
Guest_IReuven_*

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Art? Where?
Apart from perfect OST... this game is not art. Even if... it is not "The Art".
For now It stands for rushed, totally commercial crappy thing. So after this all day-one-dlc, adverts, IGN-lass-in-game they are still treating this as art? Hold the phone here!

At the end they are reminding us about buying dlc, ending is irracional, they lied about many things, and they DARE to call it art?
ME1 was The Art, ME2 was Art... ME3? Nope!

#536
gmboy902

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I'm not demanding a happy ending. Just a conclusive, good one.

And so? Do you really think BioWare EA is going to give a rip about artistic integrity if they find profit (or rather, more fan dollars back) from creating a new ending?

#537
Ariaya

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Chiming in very late here but...

Adding a happy ending doesn't compromise artistic integrity any more than the multiple endings with different tones that we had for Dragon Age Origins.

The ME creators can have their artsy ending.

And fans who want it can have their happy ending.

This is the beauty of the RPG genre--multiple paths, outcomes, and perspectives.

I see this as a good thing--I don't view it as problematic.

#538
Coachdongwiffle

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saracen16 wrote...

Coachdongwiffle wrote...

so what? so what if your right? it still doesn't change the root of the problem. They promised multiple endings that would be changed depending on the choices we made and that was a lie. If they wanted bleak endings fine. But I want multiple bleak endings that are changed greatly depending on the choices I made.


I'm seriously offended. You're telling me that curing the genophage and giving the Quarians a homeworld with the Geth are not endings to subplots, and that my choices in previous games and in the subplots themselves did not matter? The endings were woven throughout the game and my choices did matter. It is RIDICULOUS to say that it is possible to merge every single plot and sub-plot into the final ending and the choices you made in them.

Seriously...


What are you talking about? The ending through those subplots don't matter. If you force peace the Geth die anyway. Curing the Genophage won't matter because the Krogan are trapped on their homeworlds for at least a couple generations anyway. And no they couldn't be put into a single ending. the way they ended those subplots would matter if the universe as they built it wasn't destroyed.

#539
R8edR

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saracen16 wrote...

Coachdongwiffle wrote...

so what? so what if your right? it still doesn't change the root of the problem. They promised multiple endings that would be changed depending on the choices we made and that was a lie. If they wanted bleak endings fine. But I want multiple bleak endings that are changed greatly depending on the choices I made.


I'm seriously offended. You're telling me that curing the genophage and giving the Quarians a homeworld with the Geth are not endings to subplots, and that my choices in previous games and in the subplots themselves did not matter? The endings were woven throughout the game and my choices did matter. It is RIDICULOUS to say that it is possible to merge every single plot and sub-plot into the final ending and the choices you made in them.

Seriously...


I found that the choices made have very little to no effect.  We were told that choices made in previous games would effect the current game.  The reality is that they had very little effect, if any at all to the current game.  The only choices that really matter were which squad mates survived ME2 and ME1.

- Whether you were faithful to you LI seem to have no effect.  Ashley didn't trust me either way.
- Destroying or keeping the collectors base didn't do or any difference.
- Keeping the data on the genophage had little to no impact.
- The advice you give to the quarians about keeping peace or going to war, the same no impact.
- Rewriting the Heretic or killing them does nothing.
- The entire ending of ME1 seems to be completely ignored as well.

It seems bioware could have cared less about what choices you previously made.  You were going to get the ending they wanted whether you liked it or not.  Which in the end, doesn't make for a good RPG.

Mass Effect 3 felt more like a stand alone title then part of the trilogy.  Perhaps that's what Bioware wanted, because they seemed to ignore so many things from the previous games.  Some of which seem like it was done on purpose with little care at all.  That is the only way I can explain the entire ending as it is.

#540
Coachdongwiffle

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Ariaya wrote...

Chiming in very late here but...

Adding a happy ending doesn't compromise artistic integrity any more than the multiple endings with different tones that we had for Dragon Age Origins.

The ME creators can have their artsy ending.

And fans who want it can have their happy ending.

This is the beauty of the RPG genre--multiple paths, outcomes, and perspectives.

I see this as a good thing--I don't view it as problematic.


First I'm not on the keep the ending team. but when they say artistic integrity they mean the writers had a vision of that ending (which I don't bealive I bealive they changed there vision when they were told they had to so they could build for another game) and it's like making an author change his story it hurts the integrity of his vision.

#541
R8edR

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Coachdongwiffle wrote...

Ariaya wrote...

Chiming in very late here but...

Adding a happy ending doesn't compromise artistic integrity any more than the multiple endings with different tones that we had for Dragon Age Origins.

The ME creators can have their artsy ending.

And fans who want it can have their happy ending.

This is the beauty of the RPG genre--multiple paths, outcomes, and perspectives.

I see this as a good thing--I don't view it as problematic.


First I'm not on the keep the ending team. but when they say artistic integrity they mean the writers had a vision of that ending (which I don't bealive I bealive they changed there vision when they were told they had to so they could build for another game) and it's like making an author change his story it hurts the integrity of his vision.

 
There is a difference between artistic vision and integrity.  Parts of ME3 and especially the ending, show no artistic integrity towards the previous 2 games.  It's as if the don't matter.

Can you imagine Lucas doing another star wars, in which you find out the Queen had an affair, and that Luke really isn't Darth Vaders sons.  Sure it could be Lucas' artistic vision, but it shows no artistic integrity to the rest of the series.

Also aurthors are asked to change their stories many times, especially if the editor finds plot holes.

#542
mumwaldee369

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Adding appearance dlc packs is breaking artistic integrity.

#543
Ariaya

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Coachdongwiffle wrote...

Ariaya wrote...

Chiming in very late here but...

Adding a happy ending doesn't compromise artistic integrity any more than the multiple endings with different tones that we had for Dragon Age Origins.

The ME creators can have their artsy ending.

And fans who want it can have their happy ending.

This is the beauty of the RPG genre--multiple paths, outcomes, and perspectives.

I see this as a good thing--I don't view it as problematic.


First I'm not on the keep the ending team. but when they say artistic integrity they mean the writers had a vision of that ending (which I don't bealive I bealive they changed there vision when they were told they had to so they could build for another game) and it's like making an author change his story it hurts the integrity of his vision.


Thanks for your post.  I do understand what you're saying and what the OP is saying.

I still hold to the premise that they can have their ultimate artistic vision ending or whatever people want to call it.  But they can also have alternatives.  Yes, I see that they would have to tread carefully to make this happen as they can only alter the piece as a whole so much to accomodate several endings.

But is it entirely workable with some creativity and thought?  Yes, I think so.

I think people tend to inflate this whole "artistic integrity" notion.

Just my personal opinion; your mileage may vary.

#544
zarnk567

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I'm sorry but when a "buy more DLC" pops up after you beat the game, I'm pretty sure you forfeit all "artistic Integrity".

#545
Mbednar

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R8edR wrote...

Coachdongwiffle wrote...

Ariaya wrote...

Chiming in very late here but...

Adding a happy ending doesn't compromise artistic integrity any more than the multiple endings with different tones that we had for Dragon Age Origins.

The ME creators can have their artsy ending.

And fans who want it can have their happy ending.

This is the beauty of the RPG genre--multiple paths, outcomes, and perspectives.

I see this as a good thing--I don't view it as problematic.


First I'm not on the keep the ending team. but when they say artistic integrity they mean the writers had a vision of that ending (which I don't bealive I bealive they changed there vision when they were told they had to so they could build for another game) and it's like making an author change his story it hurts the integrity of his vision.

 
There is a difference between artistic vision and integrity.  Parts of ME3 and especially the ending, show no artistic integrity towards the previous 2 games.  It's as if the don't matter.

Can you imagine Lucas doing another star wars, in which you find out the Queen had an affair, and that Luke really isn't Darth Vaders sons.  Sure it could be Lucas' artistic vision, but it shows no artistic integrity to the rest of the series.

Also aurthors are asked to change their stories many times, especially if the editor finds plot holes.


Don't give Lucas any ideas.  He might actually consider them :P

#546
zippythecellist

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No, it doesn't affect artistic integrity. I, like many of you here, have save files that were 100% completion. If I put the effort in for all 3 games like that, there is no reason why I can't have the choice of singing kumbayah by a fire with the Normandy crew as my femshep and garrus run off in the fields with their human-turian babies. (lol!) I'm also not saying every ending needs to be sunshine and bunnies, but ME has been about choice the entire series. If I have a 100% paragon character for example, who made all the "right" choices, 100%'d every game and had a sufficient EMS rating in the last game, there's no reason why that can't be one of the few (or maybe even the only) sunshine and bunnies ending. Putting all that effort in and forcing that player to have the same cookie cutter ending as everyone else isn't right or fair, especially since we were promised 16 DIFFERENT endings.

#547
Virginian

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If you are making a product and designing it to sell to as many people as frelling possible, there is no such thing as artistic integrity.

If you are making a product and are designing solely for yourself and anyone willing to pay money for your vision, there is artistic integrity.

Take the bs about artistic integrity and shove it out the airlock.

#548
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Vromrig wrote...

No artistic integrity to currently speak of.

Argument has no merit. All attempts at art sold out with "Drink More Ovaltine" message at end.

This makes sense. The fact that BioWare tries to sell you on DLC when the game ends is weird.

#549
vallore

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txgoldrush wrote...

Face it.....a happy ending WOULD break the intergrity of the game.

The MAIN THEME of Mass Effect 3 is VICTORY THROUGH SACRIFICE.. This requires an ending that is bittersweet at best. Yes trilogies as a whole can overlying themes throughout, such as overcoming all odds (which WAS fuffilled in ME3, Shepard DID break the cycle), but single entries in a series or trilogy has their own themes.


Several points here:

Bittersweet: one person’s bittersweet is another person’s vinegar, so how exactly are you going to get just the right dose of bitter and sweet with only one taste available for all?

The Main Theme for ME3 may have been intended to be sacrifice. But, by design or flaw, it certainly wasn’t the only one that took relevance. Unity was always present and far more present than sacrifice during the entire trilogy. Except during the ending, where it counts for nothing.

Further, you do realize that, by the time of the end, sacrifice was already done aplenty. You do not have to kill the character, her mentor, her grandmother, her cat and the canary to make that point. It’s overkill.

Regarding overarching themes of the trilogy, like overcoming all odds. Sorry but no. Shepard does not overcome anything in the end. All that her efforts allowed her in the end was an audience with Reaper upper management.

It is something, I guess; but ultimately it is up to the star-god to decide if what is going o happen. Had "It" decided to proceed with "Its" plans, and Shepard could do nothing about it, other than watch the fleet be destroyed.

What happens is that the Star-god decides to grant 3 bad choices, (that are intended to be the answer to "Its" own problem, by-the-way, not Shepard’s) I repeat: Shepard does not earns or conquers those choices; they are granted by "It."


Bioware should, and looks like they are, provide far more clarity and closure, however, not change the tone of the ending or provide a happy ending. To do so is selling out and breaking the relevance of the ending....


Here’s the problem; apparently a great deal many people felt that nothing they did during the trilogy mattered in the end. I don’t know about you, but it seems to me that, for these people the relevance of the ending as it is.... none whatsoever.

But here’s the thing; a very good thing about video games, and one that movies and books don’t have, is that ... wait for it....you can actual have different endings.

Yup. It is possible for a game to have a grim-dark ending, filled to the brim with angst, another where you can quietly retire your character to some quiet countryside, or another were she becomes the next counsellor.

So you can have your meaningful ending, and others can have theirs too, isn't that better than just you having it?


Hell, ME1 was not a fully happy ending, in fact had elements of victory through sacrifice, as either the a part of the alliance navy or the council is sacrificed, and ME2 is a hollow victory at best. This isn't Star Wars either, where Alderaan and Taris can be annihilated but be no longer relevant 5 minutes later....and end on a ceremony. And ME3 is so dark, a happy ending would not be appropriate.


So, let me get this straight. You are saying that Bioware made a relevant point about victory through sacrifice, while allowing the main character to live in ME1, but then the main character has to die in ME3 because, if not, it violates that theme?


In fact, ending the current universe and creating a new beginning IS A GOOD THING and a smart move. That needs to stay.


Actually, it is only a good thing if you assume people were tired of the old universe; otherwise it just substitutes something the audience liked with something the audience may like.

#550
txgoldrush

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cavs25 wrote...

One of the most moronic threads I've seen since I have been on these forums...

Victory through sacrifice huh?
You haven't sacrificed enough?

Kaiden/Ashley
Wrex/or not
Anyone who died in the second game/Most of the crew
Thane
Kelly Chambers
Mordin
All those random people that died just so you got to the statue in Thessa.

Honestly I don't care about a happy ending. I would be happy with something that is bitter sweet as long as it makes sense but if you are going to promote "choice" deliver on that.

PS. For something to be bitter sweet, there most be some sweetness to it...


Moronic? Did you miss the part where the Reapers are defeated and Shepard became a legend?