706 réponses à ce sujet

[LegatoSkyheart]

Victory through Sacrifice?
I thought the main theme of Mass Effect was Victory through Unity.

[txgoldrush]

jedisolo wrote...

Bethesda changed the ending of fall out 3 with Broken Steal so why can't Bioware change the ending of Mass Effect 3 with DLC.

And by looking at it, Broken Steel made the ending even more STUPID and irrelevant. Woopdie doo, I can send Fawkes into the chamber, however the rest of the aspects of the ending got a lot dumber.

I think Bioware should tweak the ending in numerous posts I have posted here.

[txgoldrush]

LegatoSkyheart wrote...

Victory through Sacrifice?
I thought the main theme of Mass Effect was Victory through Unity.

Casey Hudson described ME3 as Viictory Through Sacrifice...his words.

And as I have said, a trilogy can have a universal theme, however, each entry to a trilogy can have their own theme as well. For example The Empire Strikes Back has far different themes than Return of the Jedi.

[Jackal7713]

LegatoSkyheart wrote...

Victory through Sacrifice?
I thought the main theme of Mass Effect was Victory through Unity.

I agree with you Legato. Hudson also said that Mass Effect was half owned by the fans. So if that the case, if we don't like the direction of the ending can't we say the ending was bad?

[wantedman dan]

We're still discussing this sh*t topic? Dear Christ.

[Exeider]

There is no Artistic Integrity when you are contracted to make something by someone throwing money at you. In the same way artists take comissions, there is no integrity, your doing a job for someone.

Bioware made this game because they were getting paid to do it, not for free expression, For bioware to have "artistic integrity" then they should of made the game out of pure expression and taken not ONE RED CENT.

Of course they are not going to do that, because they are not stupid. The truth is, they were contracted for a commission, people enjoyed it and they were contracted for two more. EA and by extension us have every right to ask them for a change, and NO they do not have integrity.

So in answer to your question, changing the ending would not violate integrity on the grounds you can violate something that they didn't have in the first place.

-AE

[Pkxm]

or actually have 3 different endings. happy. sad. effing disaster

and let people have the ending they want, by making decisions actually matter and influence which ending

Modifié par Jsxdf, 27 mars 2012 - 03:00 .

[Holoe4]

I don't care if it's happy or not, I don't care if the entire Normandy crew dies...

I just want an ending that makes sense.

[txgoldrush]

DrowNoble wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Face it.....a happy ending WOULD break the intergrity of the game.

The MAIN THEME of Mass Effect 3 is VICTORY THROUGH SACRIFICE.. This requires an ending that is bittersweet at best. Yes trilogies as a whole can overlying themes throughout, such as overcoming all odds (which WAS fuffilled in ME3, Shepard DID break the cycle), but single entries in a series or trilogy has their own themes.

Bioware should, and looks like they are, provide far more clarity and closure, however, not change the tone of the ending or provide a happy ending. To do so is selling out and breaking the relevance of the ending....

Hell, ME1 was not a fully happy ending, in fact had elements of victory through sacrifice, as either the a part of the alliance navy or the council is sacrificed, and ME2 is a hollow victory at best. This isn't Star Wars either, where Alderaan and Taris can be annihilated but be no longer relevant 5 minutes later....and end on a ceremony. And ME3 is so dark, a happy ending would not be appropriate.

In fact, ending the current universe and creating a new beginning IS A GOOD THING and a smart move. That needs to stay.

Actually it wouldn't break integrity of the game, because the theme of the game is Choice and Consequence not sacrifice.  Yes, there are sacrifices made, but it's not the major theme.

Bioware stated the ending would be "bittersweet" without understanding the definition of the word.  It means, outside of the chocolate reference, something is both "pleasant and painful/regretful".  Now the latter part we got, but as the endings stand now there is nothing pleasant about them at all.

ME1 was a decently "happy" ending, the major threat dealt with (Sovereign), his lackey killed (Saren) and Shephard survives to fight another day.  ME2's victory wasn't hollow unless you really made a lot of bad choices and Shephard died.  Unless you blundered a lot, the ending was decisive:  Collectors defeated, remaining human colonies saved, embryo reaper stopped, Harbinger's plan foiled and either the dangerous tech destroyed OR saved for use vs reapers.

The star wars reference isn't really applied well.  Taris is referenced in KOTOR2 as well as TOR, so it still has relevance for "more than 5 mins".  Alderaan's destruction was to drive home the point that the rebels were facing a vastly powerful and evil entity.  It's relevance continued even til Return of the Jedi when Luke and Leia spoke of their childhoods.

The ending of ME3 is hardly "a good thing" as it leaves trillions dead, technology gone, all the fleets stranded on Earth (soon to starve) and Shephard doing the reaper's job for them in 10 mins.  HOW you can think this is a "good" ending is beyond me.

Remember people:  HOLD THE LINE

Funny how OBSIDIAN references Taris in KOTOR II, and not Bioware more than 5 minutes in KOTOR I.

Yes, Alderaan was used to drive home the power of the Empire, but nothing more. The fall of Thessia in ME3 was more than just to show off the power of the Reapers....its much more.

Everything you said here....."The ending of ME3 is hardly "a good thing" as it leaves trillions dead, technology gone, all the fleets stranded on Earth (soon to starve) and Shephard doing the reaper's job for them in 10 mins. HOW you can think this is a "good" ending is beyond me." is just speculation. What makes you think they will not find new ways to survive?

[RogueBot]

At this point, I don't really care if it "breaks artistic integrity" or not. I don't think Bioware was that concerned with artistic integrity when they hired Jessica Chobot instead of an actual voice actor with a modicum of talent.

Mass Effect is commercial art. You can change it, no big deal. No integrity lost when you change commercial art.

Modifié par RogueBot, 27 mars 2012 - 03:08 .

[Nyila]

RogueBot wrote...

At this point, I don't really care if it "breaks artistic integrity" or not. I don't think Bioware was that concerned with artistic integrity when they hired Jessica Chobot instead of an  actual voice actor with a modicum of talent.

Agreed!!!

[Jackal7713]

Nyila wrote...

RogueBot wrote...

At this point, I don't really care if it "breaks artistic integrity" or not. I don't think Bioware was that concerned with artistic integrity when they hired Jessica Chobot instead of an  actual voice actor with a modicum of talent.

Agreed!!!

Oh poor Space Snooki- not.

[KainrycKarr]

txgoldrush wrote...

Face it.....a happy ending WOULD break the intergrity of the game.

The MAIN THEME of Mass Effect 3 is VICTORY THROUGH SACRIFICE.. This requires an ending that is bittersweet at best. Yes trilogies as a whole can overlying themes throughout, such as overcoming all odds (which WAS fuffilled in ME3, Shepard DID break the cycle), but single entries in a series or trilogy has their own themes.

Bioware should, and looks like they are, provide far more clarity and closure, however, not change the tone of the ending or provide a happy ending. To do so is selling out and breaking the relevance of the ending....

Hell, ME1 was not a fully happy ending, in fact had elements of victory through sacrifice, as either the a part of the alliance navy or the council is sacrificed, and ME2 is a hollow victory at best. This isn't Star Wars either, where Alderaan and Taris can be annihilated but be no longer relevant 5 minutes later....and end on a ceremony. And ME3 is so dark, a happy ending would not be appropriate.

In fact, ending the current universe and creating a new beginning IS A GOOD THING and a smart move. That needs to stay.

Nope, this is Mass Effect, where an entire galaxy of planets can be no longer relevant 5 minutes later.

You people with the GRIM DARK EDGY REALSTIC stuff just need to stop.

The theme of the games was always to do the impossible, the goal of ME2 was to SURVIVE the suicide mission, not to barely trudge through with a half-dead crew.

[Marinemike69]

Leaving the ending the way it is, is breaking common sense. (plot holes)

as well as messing up the series in that choices have an effect in the game; a MASSEFFECT in the game

not just differnt colors. Lazy = art.

[txgoldrush]

IReuven wrote...

Art? Where?
Apart from perfect OST... this game is not art. Even if... it is not "The Art".
For now It stands for rushed, totally commercial crappy thing. So after this all day-one-dlc, adverts, IGN-lass-in-game they are still treating this as art? Hold the phone here!

At the end they are reminding us about buying dlc, ending is irracional, they lied about many things, and they DARE to call it art?
ME1 was The Art, ME2 was Art... ME3? Nope!

Lets whine some more...ohhhh...that big bad corporation.

[KainrycKarr]

txgoldrush wrote...

LegatoSkyheart wrote...

Victory through Sacrifice?
I thought the main theme of Mass Effect was Victory through Unity.

Casey Hudson described ME3 as Viictory Through Sacrifice...his words.

And as I have said, a trilogy can have a universal theme, however, each entry to a trilogy can have their own theme as well. For example The Empire Strikes Back has far different themes than Return of the Jedi.

Casey Hudson also said we wouldn't get an A, B, or C ending.

[txgoldrush]

KainrycKarr wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Face it.....a happy ending WOULD break the intergrity of the game.

The MAIN THEME of Mass Effect 3 is VICTORY THROUGH SACRIFICE.. This requires an ending that is bittersweet at best. Yes trilogies as a whole can overlying themes throughout, such as overcoming all odds (which WAS fuffilled in ME3, Shepard DID break the cycle), but single entries in a series or trilogy has their own themes.

Bioware should, and looks like they are, provide far more clarity and closure, however, not change the tone of the ending or provide a happy ending. To do so is selling out and breaking the relevance of the ending....

Hell, ME1 was not a fully happy ending, in fact had elements of victory through sacrifice, as either the a part of the alliance navy or the council is sacrificed, and ME2 is a hollow victory at best. This isn't Star Wars either, where Alderaan and Taris can be annihilated but be no longer relevant 5 minutes later....and end on a ceremony. And ME3 is so dark, a happy ending would not be appropriate.

In fact, ending the current universe and creating a new beginning IS A GOOD THING and a smart move. That needs to stay.

Nope, this is Mass Effect, where an entire galaxy of planets can be no longer relevant 5 minutes later.

You people with the GRIM DARK EDGY REALSTIC stuff just need to stop.

The theme of the games was always to do the impossible, the goal of ME2 was to SURVIVE the suicide mission, not to barely trudge through with a half-dead crew.

Oh wait Shepard DID THE IMPOSSIBLE....HE STOPPED THE REAPER CYCLE!!!!!!!!!

Fits the theme, don't ya think.....

[SnakeStrike8]

txgoldrush wrote...


The MAIN THEME of Mass Effect 3 is VICTORY THROUGH SACRIFICE.. This requires an ending that is bittersweet at best. Yes trilogies as a whole can overlying themes throughout, such as overcoming all odds (which WAS fuffilled in ME3, Shepard DID break the cycle), but single entries in a series or trilogy has their own themes.

We sacrificed quite a bit already, mate. I sacrificed Mordin to win the support of the krogan. I sacrificed Tali to gain the support of the geth. I sacrificed Zaal'Koris to save his crew.
Insisting that the current endings are good because they emphasize the sacrifice necessary to win the war is like saying that a gardener who burns a grass lawn with white phosphorous and napalm to get rid of weeds is justified in doing so.
I think not.

[p__q]

While I have some issues with this whole "artistic integrity" point, I do agree with you about victory through sacrifice being a major theme thus a bitter sweet ending was always a possibility I expected (not that the ending actually delivers that properly), however many other themes are ignored here, especially player choice and overcoming impossible odds, these are even more key to the series and I honestly believe introducing the possibility of a happy ending achieved through great effort would be the easiest way to reincorporate these themes that were left out, ideally bioware could incorporate them while keeping the ending strictly bitter sweet but after the original ending I personally (but I'm sure I'm not the only one) have significant doubt in the writing staffs ability to pull it off.

[Controller_B]

I agree that sacrifice is a theme (at least in this last game), but this all implies that there isn't any sacrifice in Mass Effect 3. There's plenty of it and if you're going to base your narrative off of sacrifice, you either demand more of it at the end, OR you acknowledge that those previous sacrifices have already paid for the ending.

[txgoldrush]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


The MAIN THEME of Mass Effect 3 is VICTORY THROUGH SACRIFICE.. This requires an ending that is bittersweet at best. Yes trilogies as a whole can overlying themes throughout, such as overcoming all odds (which WAS fuffilled in ME3, Shepard DID break the cycle), but single entries in a series or trilogy has their own themes.

We sacrificed quite a bit already, mate. I sacrificed Mordin to win the support of the krogan. I sacrificed Tali to gain the support of the geth. I sacrificed Zaal'Koris to save his crew.
Insisting that the current endings are good because they emphasize the sacrifice necessary to win the war is like saying that a gardener who burns a grass lawn with white phosphorous and napalm to get rid of weeds is justified in doing so.
I think not.

no, the current endings aren't good because of EXECUTION, not because of the theme...

And you didn't sacrifice Mordin, he chose to sacrifice himself, Tali commits suicide, Koris sacrifices himself...

[nicksmi56]

Psh. What artistic integrity was left? Throwing out established universe rules (mass relay explosion not killing everyone. Idc what you say, there's NO ESTABLISHED EXPLANATION), character personalities (Why did my loyal squad leave me?? Especially is Joker stopped and picked up Garrus???), and main themes (Doing the impossible and triumphing? Psh screw that. Now you have to go along with whatever the enemy says and kill far more people than the Reapers would have. You actually thought you could save the galaxy? XD) pretty much killed all 'artistic integrity'

[Reth Shepherd]

Actually, the only option in which we can be sure that he stopped the cycle is by choosing Destroy. In that ending we see the Reapers die. In Synthesis, we see them fly off. For how long? Now that everything is partially synthetic, how long until they try something along the lines of "ASSUMING CONTROL"? Reapers regard anyone not them as tools at best. I can't see them changing their minds just because they now have organic parts...wait, they already HAD those. So nothing changes so far as the Reapers are concerned.

Control. A: what makes you believe that you actually CAN control them? Everyone who's tried up til now failed miserably and soon resulted in them being controlled by the Reapers. Are we to take the kid's word on it? B: Shep is now immortal (we think) in constant contact with the Reapers. Even if s/he retains his/her personality, how long until constantly rubbing shoulders with the big bads starts to eat away at the corners of Shep's mind? At that point the cycle restarts, only with Shep in charge.



EDIT: Just remembered a random fact. According to a Tweet, nearly everyone on the Citadel dies when the Reapers invade. A handful manage to escape before the arms close.

Modifié par Reth Shepherd, 27 mars 2012 - 03:31 .

[ArkkAngel007]

For the last time, if BioWare chooses to change the ending and it fits their preferred image, then it isn't breaking artistic integrity.

There is already plenty of sacrifice. Mordin, Thane, Wrex, Miranda, the Citadel inhabitants, your forces above Earth and everyone on the planet, etc. Yes, I think the ending itself should make note of that theme with the proper atmosphere, but that doesn't mean there can't be any happiness.

[Reth Shepherd]

Txgoldrush, can we at least agree that different people wanted different things from the game, and while you got what you wanted, tens of thousands did not? Can we at least agree on that?