706 réponses à ce sujet

[BadlyBrowned]

You know what really breaks artistic integrity? Releasing an incomplete product.

That is what Mass Effect 3's endings make me feel like, that the game was rushed to meet a deadline.

[ediskrad327]

yeah? well screw "artistic integrity", even a happy ending would be bitter sweet

[KevShep]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

GOD I am sick of hearing that word!

Sarcastic <Why would we be sick of that word? It couldnt have anything to do with Bioware could it?>

[CheeseEnchilada]

The theme is 'victory through sacrifice'? Huh, guess I must have missed that time where Shepard could get their entire squad through a suicide mission unscathed. Or when Shepard managed to save the Destiny Ascension, get Saren to kill himself, and crawl out of Soverign's wreckage with a smirk. Actually, up until now it's been a theme of deifying the odds and earning your happy ending.

And I don't think Shepard surviving automatically makes it a happy ending. Tuchanka is going to be the next Rakhana, especially since Wrex isn't there to guide the krogan. The giant armada you brought to earth is going to have to settle in the Sol System, probably leading towards war over resources. Isolated colonies will struggle to survive, and millions if not billions are going to die or have already done so. One man or woman surviving does not make this a happy ending. It just gives a tiny tinge of sweet to this overwhelming bitterness.

And artistic integrity? Not touching that with a ten foot pole.

Modifié par CheeseEnchilada, 26 mars 2012 - 06:17 .

[sergeym1990]

There is already enough sacrifice in ME3 - entire planets are lost and at least 2 familar characters die. What we have now is more like sacrifice without victory.

[JDMiller5150]

Perhaps I could provide some clarity.

We dont want a "happy" ending.

We want a BETTER ending.

We want an ending that is even more robust than the one we got in ME2. Where in the success of the final conflict directly depends on your decisions made in the game AS WELL as the decisions and past successes in the first two games.

The replay value HAS TANKED in this 3rd game because...


NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO OR HOW YOU DO IT, YOU WILL ALWAYS GET THOSE 3 ENDINGS.


There should be hundreds, maybe THOUSANDS of endings. Instead, we got three.

Red, green, or blue.

Choose you're favorite color, kiddies.

[TheHoneyRuns]

txgoldrush wrote...

Face it.....a happy ending WOULD break the intergrity of the game.

The MAIN THEME of Mass Effect 3 is VICTORY THROUGH SACRIFICE.. This requires an ending that is bittersweet at best. Yes trilogies as a whole can overlying themes throughout, such as overcoming all odds (which WAS fuffilled in ME3, Shepard DID break the cycle), but single entries in a series or trilogy has their own themes.

Bioware should, and looks like they are, provide far more clarity and closure, however, not change the tone of the ending or provide a happy ending. To do so is selling out and breaking the relevance of the ending....

Hell, ME1 was not a fully happy ending, in fact had elements of victory through sacrifice, as either the a part of the alliance navy or the council is sacrificed, and ME2 is a hollow victory at best. This isn't Star Wars either, where Alderaan and Taris can be annihilated but be no longer relevant 5 minutes later....and end on a ceremony. And ME3 is so dark, a happy ending would not be appropriate.

In fact, ending the current universe and creating a new beginning IS A GOOD THING and a smart move. That needs to stay.

Victory Through Sacrifice was not a theme in ME3.

It wasn't the MAIN THEME or even a SUB THEME. It was a possibility, sure. But not a theme. My Paragon Shepard, at no point in the game, willingly sacrificed anyone. She attempted to stop Mordin, she didn't even have time to try and stop Legion, but given the option, she sure as spitfire would have tried to find another way.

If your Shepard was down with killing people for the 'greater good', bully for you. Mine wasn't. Not applicable to every iteration of Shepard, not a theme.

Victory in the face of Overwhelming Odds, sure. Victory at a Price, I'll take it.

And don't tell me Sacrifice and Price are the same thing, cause they're not. Sacrifice is the willing and knowing, intentional loss of an asset. Price is an absolute cost regardless of the player's decision. My Shepard is a goody two-shoes, but she is not an altruist communist ready to throw herself or anyone else onto the pyre for the 'greater good.'

And regardless of your wooly-headed ideas on themes, just tell me this about your beloved bittersweet ending.

We have the bitter, where's the sweet?

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Falcon509 wrote...

Artistic integrity is one of those bs words, like bipartisan or hate crime. Being bipartisan is impossible because you're already admitting to being split on something in the first place. All hate crimes are just crimes committed against someone different than the one who committed them.

Artistic integrity is a just a term used by Bioware to justify not changing their stance. Its a term for their supporters to cling to. To make detractors sound unrefined. To discredit them as critics.

Its an excuse. They're trying to save face by posing as though they're bring victimized. Any company would do the same. All humans do it.

Well not entirely, if you aren't profit driven, never change what you do based on feedback, and are an established artist or artist guild, then it isn't a firvilous claim or excuse.

Problem is, EA and Bioware are none of those things, so the claim can't just be arbitrarily applied to save face when in trouble.

[aliengmr1]

People need to start defining what "happy" means in happy ending. We get it, big war, all that jazz. Way I see it, the galaxy owes paragon Shep a retirement. And lets face it, renegade Shep was a dick so he can sacrifice himself.

These don't change what the Reapers did. Its not like we have Sam's space-magic seeds to put everything back the way it was.(LOTR reference there)

Modifié par aliengmr1, 26 mars 2012 - 06:19 .

[jla0644]

Not sure how artistic integrity applies to a collaborative effort like a video game. Surely at some point every person involved in the game's production compromised about something they felt should be done a certain way or be included in the game. The final product is a result of those compromises. We're not talking about a singular vision from an individual artist.

Also, if it is that big of a deal to Bioware, they're under no obligation to change it. We as fans every right to say we're not satisfied with what they gave us. They can try to address that, or they can say "we're artists, we have integrity, so STFU".

Also also, there were many themes in Mass Effect. Sacrifice was certainly one of them (and I don't see how anyone can argue there hasn't already been plenty of that before Shep even returns to Earth). But strength through unity, power in diversity, and refusing to surrender in the face of insurmountable odds are other themes present throughout the series -- and these themes were nowhere to be seen at the end of the game.

Like many others I fully expected Shep to make the ultimate sacrifice at the end of the game, but I have absolutely nothing against having a happier ending. Notice I said "happier" not "happy". Shep and the Normandy crew surviving doesn't automatically make a happy ending free from sacrifice. Think about it. Billions of people have been slaughtered. Earth, Thessia, Palaven and countless other plantes are in ruins. The Geth or the Quarians were possibly wiped out. The Krogan may still be facing extinction. The Rachni may finally be wiped out. Many teammembers, friends, or LIs may be dead. Shep surviving the final mission does not mean there wasn't still plenty of sacrifice.

Sorry for rambling.

[Nykara]

txgoldrush wrote...

Face it.....a happy ending WOULD break the intergrity of the game.

The MAIN THEME of Mass Effect 3 is VICTORY THROUGH SACRIFICE.. This requires an ending that is bittersweet at best. Yes trilogies as a whole can overlying themes throughout, such as overcoming all odds (which WAS fuffilled in ME3, Shepard DID break the cycle), but single entries in a series or trilogy has their own themes.

Bioware should, and looks like they are, provide far more clarity and closure, however, not change the tone of the ending or provide a happy ending. To do so is selling out and breaking the relevance of the ending....

Hell, ME1 was not a fully happy ending, in fact had elements of victory through sacrifice, as either the a part of the alliance navy or the council is sacrificed, and ME2 is a hollow victory at best. This isn't Star Wars either, where Alderaan and Taris can be annihilated but be no longer relevant 5 minutes later....and end on a ceremony. And ME3 is so dark, a happy ending would not be appropriate.

In fact, ending the current universe and creating a new beginning IS A GOOD THING and a smart move. That needs to stay.

It really doesn't you know. Shepard has come through everything thus far and lived. No one is saying Shepard has to come through totally unscathed - without having lost any friends along the way.
What is bittersweet is the fact that not everyone could be saved ( including close friends / people Shepard cared about )
There are many many levels of bittersweet that could be taken in to account before even thinking about killing off Shep.
The entire game has dark elements but that still doesn't meany Shepard can't go on to live with his/her LI. Lets face it a LOT of homeworlds, earth included have been hit hard.

[razor150]

txgoldrush wrote...

Face it.....a happy ending WOULD break the intergrity of the game.

The MAIN THEME of Mass Effect 3 is VICTORY THROUGH SACRIFICE.. This requires an ending that is bittersweet at best. Yes trilogies as a whole can overlying themes throughout, such as overcoming all odds (which WAS fuffilled in ME3, Shepard DID break the cycle), but single entries in a series or trilogy has their own themes.

Bioware should, and looks like they are, provide far more clarity and closure, however, not change the tone of the ending or provide a happy ending. To do so is selling out and breaking the relevance of the ending....

Hell, ME1 was not a fully happy ending, in fact had elements of victory through sacrifice, as either the a part of the alliance navy or the council is sacrificed, and ME2 is a hollow victory at best. This isn't Star Wars either, where Alderaan and Taris can be annihilated but be no longer relevant 5 minutes later....and end on a ceremony. And ME3 is so dark, a happy ending would not be appropriate.

In fact, ending the current universe and creating a new beginning IS A GOOD THING and a smart move. That needs to stay.

Right, the whole "artisitc integrity" arguement. Funny, artistic intregrity didn't stop Bioware from cutting out Omega (even though it was a promised level) and the Prothean from the game to sell to you later. Artistic integrity didn't stop Bioware at the end of the game to beg you to buy more DLC. Artistic integrity didn't stop the whole muliplayer from being built around micro transactions. This game doesn't have an ounce of artistic integrity. This arguement is tiring and quite frankly idiotic. To Bioware Mass Effect is a consumer product used to get more and more money out of your pocket, it only becomes art when we say how bad they messed up.

Modifié par razor150, 26 mars 2012 - 06:28 .

[tucsondoug]

May I direct your attention to this post please. Particularly point two: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10506868/1

Modifié par tucsondoug, 26 mars 2012 - 06:20 .

[Cody211282]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Cody211282 wrote...

The theme you mention is only there if you play renegade.

Or never played the first 2 games were I never sacrificed a damn thing.

Virmine.

And yes, otherwise, this is true.

Ok so I lost one teammate out of about a dozen teammates and that includes a suicide mission.

But point is I don't get were people are coming from when they say that the theme of Mass Effect was "sacrifice," that was  a theme in the third game but not really in the other 2 unless you wanted to play it that way.

My game was about unity, not being racists, and how by working together we can overcome anything, so the ending came out of friken nowhere.

[Iakus]

I thought the theme was "Finding your own path rather than taking the one given to you"?

Guess not, huh?  More like "Choose the color of your destruction"

Edit:  "Victory through sacrifice?"  Yeah, we've already had that:  Mordin, Thane, Legion, Anderson, with numerous others possible.  Rana Thanoptis, Emily Wong, Kal'Regar, Aresh among the minor characters dead.  Earth, Palaven, Thessia aflame.  Numerous worlds conquerered.  Billions dead.  


How does one get a "unicorns and rainbows" ending when all this has happened?  Somehow, asking for an ending less fatalistic and grim means asking for this?

Modifié par iakus, 26 mars 2012 - 06:26 .

[Conundrum129]

The kind of "happy" ending that I think people want to see is one that not only gives us closeure but is somthing that we had to earn, somthing we had to work hard for though all 3 games. Many of the worlds will still be in ruins, friends will still have died so that we can win the fight, and sacrafices will still have been made to win the war.

What many of us want is for our choices to truly matter, for each sacrafice to not have been in vain, and for some of us we want our Shepard to live to see and fight another day so long as we earn it.

In both previous games we had to earn our good ending, at least what each of us felt was our good ending and that I think is the major complaint about all of this. Most of us can't feel good about the endings right now and that's somthing that I think we have a right to be able to do.

I don't want to see everything get magicly fixed after beating the Reapers but what I want is the chance for an ending that will make me feel good about all the sacrafices that we made though the series, somthing that makes the deaths of Kaidan\\Ashley, Mordin, Thane, Legion, and anyone else who died durring your quest to stop the Reapers worth while. I don't think that is too much to ask for.

[Peytl]

Guys, you keep forgetting this crappy ending was created after some bosh'tet leaked original script. So if anyone is to blame, it’s definetely Bioware. All these talks reminds me Evangelion ending.

[J717]

OP is a troll. His argument is shot down and poof, he disappears.

Sorry, but anyone that releases an ending this bad has absolutely no sense of "artistic integrity," nevermind the photoshopping images found on Google, and then throwing a "BUY MORE DLC!" window immediately after serving you said garbage ending.

It's clear that everyone wants to throw out the term "artistic integrity" but completely lack comprehension of what that actually means. BioWare has no integrity here to defend; the ending they released can be considered art, I suppose, to those who are completely ignorant.

Modifié par J717, 26 mars 2012 - 06:24 .

[TJX2045]

I'll say this again. If people are going to whine that a change in the ending with DLC will destroy artistic integrity, then they should also whine that DLC destroys artistic integrity. It changes a portion of the art. It adjusts it to make it more enjoyable to the client, which real art (that is made for clients and not just for the sake of the artist's passion) does. Therefore, there is no integrity because it was already hinted at having missing parts in the base game. Meaning ME3 is still a work in progress until all the DLC is released.

DLC is basically like an artist adding details to their work after it is completed.

With that said, I would like to see how many artistic integrity supporters will actually go out now and protest DLC as well.

[Admiral H. Cain]

[quote]txgoldrush wrote...

Face it.....a happy ending WOULD break the intergrity of the game.

The MAIN THEME of Mass Effect 3 is VICTORY THROUGH SACRIFICE.. This requires an ending that is bittersweet at best. Yes trilogies as a whole can overlying themes throughout, such as overcoming all odds (which WAS fuffilled in ME3, Shepard DID break the cycle), but single entries in a series or trilogy has their own themes.

Bioware should, and looks like they are, provide far more clarity and closure, however, not change the tone of the ending or provide a happy ending. To do so is selling out and breaking the relevance of the ending....

Hell, ME1 was not a fully happy ending, in fact had elements of victory through sacrifice, as either the a part of the alliance navy or the council is sacrificed, and ME2 is a hollow victory at best. This isn't Star Wars either, where Alderaan and Taris can be annihilated but be no longer relevant 5 minutes later....and end on a ceremony. And ME3 is so dark, a happy ending would not be appropriate.

In fact, ending the current universe and creating a new beginning IS A GOOD THING and a smart move. That needs to stay.

[/quote]

Are you aware that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle killed off Sherlock Holmes in 1893 only to bring him back in 1901? It didn't break "artistic integrity" then, so why should it know? Would you even put BioWare in the same league as Sir Doyle?

"The Death of Sherlock Holmes"

While Sir Arthur Conan Doyle is best known for his Sherlock Holmes stories, that was not the work he valued the most.  In fact Conan Doyle once referred to them as  "an elementary form of fiction".  He was very proud of his historical novels and considered them some of his finest work.  

While his Sherlock Holmes stories were hugely successful Conan Doyle was concerned that they were keeping him from more important work.  As early as 1891 he shared with his mother his concerns about Holmes.  "He takes my mind from better things."   

As time went on Conan Doyle found himself more closely identified with Sherlock Holmes to the exclusion of his other works.  "I weary of his name," he told his mother.  

In his own mind the matter was settled.  Holmes must die.  The only question was how?  Conan Doyle wanted a dramatic finish for the great Sherlock Holmes.

In 1893 Conan Doyle visited Reichenbach Falls in the northern Swiss Alps.  After seeing the magnificent falls he decided the place would make a worthy tomb for Sherlock Holmes.  

The Adventure of the Final Problem was published in December of 1893 in The Strand magazine.  People were so upset that more than twenty thousand of them cancelled their subscription to The Strand magazine.   

It took a story of a ghostly hound to inspire Conan Doyle to bring the great detective back.  In 1901 Sherlock Holmes reappeared in The Hound of the Baskervilles.   Conan Doyle needed a strong central character for his ghostly novel.  Why invent one when he already had that in Holmes?  However Conan Doyle made it clear that Holmes was not alive.  This story took place before the incident at Reichenbach Falls.

The public's response was phenomenal.   The Hound of the Baskervilles was also first published in The Strand.   The magazine's circulation rose by thirty thousand overnight.

Later Holmes was truly brought back to life in The Adventure of the Empty House.  At the start of the story Watson is alone.  His wife is dead and he believes Holmes to be dead as well.  However Watson learns that Holmes's death was a ruse to hide from Moriarty's associates. 

[quote]I moved my head to look at the cabinet behind me. When I turned again, Sherlock Holmes was standing smiling at me across my study table. I rose to my feet, stared at him for some seconds in utter amazement, and then it appears that I must have fainted for the first and the last time in my life. Certainly a gray mist swirled before my eyes, and when it cleared I found my collar-ends undone and the tingling after-taste of brandy upon my lips. Holmes was bending over my chair, his flask in his hand. - The Adventure of the Empty House"[/quote]

http://www.siracd.co...k_h_death.shtml 

[/quote]

Modifié par Admiral H. Cain, 26 mars 2012 - 06:25 .

[Thatguyky]

CronoDragoon wrote...

By happy ending people mean Shepard reunited with his crew and all the galactic races not screwed in Sol system. Characters still die during the game, Thessia was lost, Earth is a pile of rubble, etc etc. The game is going to be bittersweet no matter what; you sacrificed a lot during the game. Doesn't mean everyone has to die.

^ This 

I want the sweet part in the "bittersweet" ending. Currently they are just bitter.

[Sohlito]

I just want an ending that makes sense.

But when you think about it, after all he/she has given up and sacrificed, don't you think a happy ending is due for Shep?

[sergeym1990]

Also i think the term "artistic integrity" is meaningless. Art can and should be changed if that creator feels that is justified.

[KevShep]

Sohlito wrote...

I just want an ending that makes sense.

But when you think about it, after all he/she has given up and sacrificed, don't you think a happy ending is due for Shep?

I like the way this volus clan thinks!

[GigaTheToast]

Sacrifice may be a theme, but it is not only theme and most certainly not the main theme. The main theme of the entire series is "Unification of diverse peoples for a purpose", not some half-assed rhetoric about how we must all sacrifice for the greater good. The climax should have been about the entire galaxy working together to defeat the enemy that threatens them all.

You sir, have no idea what you're talking about and are just playing into the PR damage control squad's hands and using the phrase "artistic integrity" as some kind of vague infallible shield.

Modifié par GigaTheToast, 26 mars 2012 - 06:28 .