706 réponses à ce sujet

[FemmeShep]

ed87 wrote...

There we go, most people disagree with OP.

/thread

I actually think he has a point.

But the point seems a bit lost, when BioWare decided to discard the majoriy of the themes and plot for the ****ty ending they gave us.

So it's hard for anyone to really care about what OP is saying. 

[txgoldrush]

Luc0s wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

The MAIN THEME of Mass Effect 3 is VICTORY THROUGH SACRIFICE.. 

Really? I always thought Mass Effect has always been about  facing impossible odds and then getting out of it completely unharmed? Sure, a character died here and there, but I never had to sacrifice anything unless I CHOSE to sacrifice it.


ME1: Don't feel like sacrificing the Council to kill Sovereign? NO PROBLEM! Just go Paragon! No sacrificed needed!

ME2: Don't feel like sacrificing your team in the Suicide MIssion? NO PROBLEM! Just do all loyalty missions! No sacrificed needed!

ME3: Don't feel like sacrificing planet Earth, Shepard's life, the Normandy crew and her crew? NO PRO- awwww ****! WTF BIOWARE WHERE IS MY HAPPY ENDING WITH NO SACRIFICES!?!? 

ME1: So you decided not to sacrifice the Council, but you DID sacrifice alliance forces saving the Council.

Never mind the fact that I said that Mass Effect THREE has "victory through sacrifice" as its main theme.

[Apathy1989]

Funny, I always saw the theme as "hope against impossible odds". Sacrifice is there yes, but always for a reason. Almost no one has an empty death. Shepards death atm is empty.

[txgoldrush]

FemmeShep wrote...

ed87 wrote...

There we go, most people disagree with OP.

/thread

I actually think he has a point.

But the point seems a bit lost, when BioWare decided to discard the majoriy of the themes and plot for the ****ty ending they gave us.

So it's hard for anyone to really care about what OP is saying. 

Nevermind the fact that I have said that it is ts CORRECT move by Bioware to have the ending tweaked to provide more clarity and closure.

However, one theme is always the most important in a story.

[Joccaren]

No, and here is why:

1. You state ME1 was victory through sacrifice. Why? Because countless lost their lives to stop Sovereign?
WHY IS THAT NOT SUFFICIENT FOR ME3?
Sword Fleet was never going to have it easy, they were always going to suffer immense losses - sacrifice a lot. Add to that possibly the Krogan, the Rachni, Thessia, Palaven, Possibly the Quarians/Geth - tell me where there is no sacrifice? There is F***ing sacrifice all through ME3, and we deserved a proper victory for that.

2. For you Mass Effect 3 may have been so dark, but for me it wasn't. I saved the Rachni... Again. I saved Tuchanka. I saved the Krogan, and Cured the Genophage. I arranged peace between the Quarians and the Geth. Not a single person it was possible to save was lost - except Mordin, who happily died for the Krogan. Maybe you backstabbed everyone in your playthrough, and got a dark game. Me, my game was full of hope and happiness right up until the end.

3. You fail to realise ME3 isn't a linear game. In most linear games I would support you - let the writers write the ending for their character. However, they aren't writing the ending to their character, they're writing the ending to OUR character that WE created and pushed through the world. WE wrote the story as much as they did - and this is the beauty of art in Video games. Both the Audience and the Designers are a part of the process, and both contribute to making the art. They can not be compared to movies like Star Wars, as they are nothing alike. As such, there should have been a CHANCE for a happy ending. I don't care if you had to do EVERYTHING perfectly and get the absolute maximum number of war assets to achieve it, it should be possible.

4. Mass Effect is a product, not art. There is no artistic integrity to preserve. They made a product to sell to the masses. The masses don't like their product, and now they have to either change it or not get funding for their next product. Simple. As. That. They gave up their rights to artistic integrity the second they signed on to make ME3 with EA to move sales, and not simply for arts sake - or for their own sake.

5. Leaving the galaxy a blank slate was the absolute WORST thing they could do, not the best. I won't bother linking you to all the literature articles about how much the ending fails because of this, or all the promises of closure with the endings - I've done that enough times. The endings is a blatant setup for a fresh universe in 'Mass Shift', or whatever their next Mass Effect game will be. Not cool Bioware, not at all.

[TheHoneyRuns]

txgoldrush wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

The MAIN THEME of Mass Effect 3 is VICTORY THROUGH SACRIFICE.. 

Really? I always thought Mass Effect has always been about  facing impossible odds and then getting out of it completely unharmed? Sure, a character died here and there, but I never had to sacrifice anything unless I CHOSE to sacrifice it.


ME1: Don't feel like sacrificing the Council to kill Sovereign? NO PROBLEM! Just go Paragon! No sacrificed needed!

ME2: Don't feel like sacrificing your team in the Suicide MIssion? NO PROBLEM! Just do all loyalty missions! No sacrificed needed!

ME3: Don't feel like sacrificing planet Earth, Shepard's life, the Normandy crew and her crew? NO PRO- awwww ****! WTF BIOWARE WHERE IS MY HAPPY ENDING WITH NO SACRIFICES!?!? 

ME1: So you decided not to sacrifice the Council, but you DID sacrifice alliance forces saving the Council.

Never mind the fact that I said that Mass Effect THREE has "victory through sacrifice" as its main theme.

Yes, nevermind that. You were wrong when you said that in the first place.

[FemmeShep]

txgoldrush wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

ed87 wrote...

There we go, most people disagree with OP.

/thread

I actually think he has a point.

But the point seems a bit lost, when BioWare decided to discard the majoriy of the themes and plot for the ****ty ending they gave us.

So it's hard for anyone to really care about what OP is saying. 

Nevermind the fact that I have said that it is ts CORRECT move by Bioware to have the ending tweaked to provide more clarity and closure.

However, one theme is always the most important in a story.

Point taken. 

Although I still don't see why it matters if they added a happy ending option. If the game is all about choice, and there was supposed to be 16 endings (something we didn't really get), then why does it matter if some want a happy ending?

I get where you are coming from in terms of theme. But I still don't see why there can't be a sacrifice measured in other ways, and there still be a happy ending. There should not be ONE single Canon ending. There should be many endings for the different stories each of us shaped to our own character. 

I didn't want a happy ending btw, just giving my take on it. 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 26 mars 2012 - 06:49 .

[Zine2]

There was no victory in the original ending, hence "Victory through sacrifice" does not hold true.

[Deventh]

FemmeShep wrote...

ed87 wrote...

There we go, most people disagree with OP.

/thread

I actually think he has a point.

But the point seems a bit lost, when BioWare decided to discard the majoriy of the themes and plot for the ****ty ending they gave us.

So it's hard for anyone to really care about what OP is saying. 

No, he doesn't have any point. We survived (ALL) in ME2 so why the hell not in 3? If you wanna die then die, Christ... Just give us an option to save some of the crew,LI and Shepard.

Modifié par Deventh, 26 mars 2012 - 06:50 .

[DVZ]

txgoldrush wrote...

A WHOLE LOT OF THE SAME OLD "ARTISTIC INTEGRITY" CRAP.

No. It wouldn't be breaking "artistic integrity." God, I hate that buzzword right now. Such a thing doesn't even exist. Bioware didn't produce art. They made a product designed for mass consumption so they could generate a profit. They only claim to be artists because a whole buncha customers think the end is a bag of crap. Maybe your Shepard was a wet arse who would lay down and die. Mine was a muhfuggin' badass who, IF THE GAME ACTUALLY TOOK INTO CONSIDERATION MY GODDAMN DECISIONS LIKE BIOWARE PROMISED, would have lived to shag half the galaxy and ****** all over Harbinger's grave while eating a Big Mac.

Modifié par DVZ, 26 mars 2012 - 06:51 .

[txgoldrush]

TheHoneyRuns wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Face it.....a happy ending WOULD break the intergrity of the game.

The MAIN THEME of Mass Effect 3 is VICTORY THROUGH SACRIFICE.. This requires an ending that is bittersweet at best. Yes trilogies as a whole can overlying themes throughout, such as overcoming all odds (which WAS fuffilled in ME3, Shepard DID break the cycle), but single entries in a series or trilogy has their own themes.

Bioware should, and looks like they are, provide far more clarity and closure, however, not change the tone of the ending or provide a happy ending. To do so is selling out and breaking the relevance of the ending....

Hell, ME1 was not a fully happy ending, in fact had elements of victory through sacrifice, as either the a part of the alliance navy or the council is sacrificed, and ME2 is a hollow victory at best. This isn't Star Wars either, where Alderaan and Taris can be annihilated but be no longer relevant 5 minutes later....and end on a ceremony. And ME3 is so dark, a happy ending would not be appropriate.

In fact, ending the current universe and creating a new beginning IS A GOOD THING and a smart move. That needs to stay.

Victory Through Sacrifice was not a theme in ME3.

It wasn't the MAIN THEME or even a SUB THEME. It was a possibility, sure. But not a theme. My Paragon Shepard, at no point in the game, willingly sacrificed anyone. She attempted to stop Mordin, she didn't even have time to try and stop Legion, but given the option, she sure as spitfire would have tried to find another way.

If your Shepard was down with killing people for the 'greater good', bully for you. Mine wasn't. Not applicable to every iteration of Shepard, not a theme.

Victory in the face of Overwhelming Odds, sure. Victory at a Price, I'll take it.

And don't tell me Sacrifice and Price are the same thing, cause they're not. Sacrifice is the willing and knowing, intentional loss of an asset. Price is an absolute cost regardless of the player's decision. My Shepard is a goody two-shoes, but she is not an altruist communist ready to throw herself or anyone else onto the pyre for the 'greater good.'

And regardless of your wooly-headed ideas on themes, just tell me this about your beloved bittersweet ending.

We have the bitter, where's the sweet?

Wrong, Casey Hudson speciically said it is......"Casey sums up Mass Effect 3 as being about victory through sacrifice, the scale of that sacrifice has been increasing with each new chapter"

[shurryy]

HAH! You got the theme wrong!
A recent thread posted proves the real theme of ME3... I suggest you check it out here:

http://social.biowar...9506/5#10635572

txgoldrush wrote...
Wrong, Casey Hudson speciically said it is......"Casey sums up Mass Effect 3 as being about victory through sacrifice, the scale of that sacrifice has been increasing with each new chapter"

 

Well would you look at that! Casey doesn't know his own work! 
Doesn't surprise me... with the ending he sent our way... 

Modifié par shurryy, 26 mars 2012 - 06:54 .

[Izhalezan]

Mesmurae wrote...

You don't get to defend artistic integrity when you start photoshopping images from Google. Bioware did a lot of that.

Hmm I heard about Tali, what else did they copy?

[TheShadowWolf911]

artistic integrity?

sod it, i'm quoting someone from siliconera.

Quote By Testsubject909

"What perplexes me is that people are seriously trying to protect this utilizing the idea of Artistic Integrity?

Seriously? One of he lead writer left and they're talking about the integrity of an unfinished piece that was most likely plugged up by a secondary writer who obviously was far out of touch with the original piece to do it justice and they want to talk about Artistic Integrity?"

heres where it was taken from
http://www.siliconer...h-a-bitter-end/

[gnaag]

Why do people always say "happy" ending. Considering the context of the game and what is happening the genocide of civilizations. Not sure you would get that response from a holocaust survivor that hey you lived its a "happy" ending no you wouldn't nor would it be bitter sweet. Yes I understand thats an extreme example but in the CONTEXT of the game mass effect 3 where the reapers are wiping out civilizations how can any ending be considered happy (only if time travel happened and they stoppped the reapers before anything happened otherwise its not happy)

If Shepard lived (and the relays still around) the ending would not be happy but more of happy relief to have survived, heartbroken by all that was lost and hopeful for the future considering what was achieved (uniting the races etc).

In DA:O which has similar theme of sacrifice you still have that option on the table to prevent it as one of the endings. Why can't that be a choice then, if you done everything right (like curing geno or uniting the geth and quarians) and you have a high war assets rating then why not.

I don't have a problem with the sacrifice of shepard but if shepard living is a happy ending considering the price already paid in blood of the galaxies inhabitants at the hands (or tentacles) of the reapers through the 3 games........then all I can say is wow I hate your idea of happy or bitter sweet. God I'd hate to see a bad ending.

[TheChris92]

As far as I remember the whole plan, and what we were promised, for Mass Effect 3 was to have 16 endings. A figure of speech that suggests that players wouldn't be able to narrow down the different endings to just A, B or C. So why would 'adding' a happy or more hopeful ending break the artistic integrity if the whole plan was to add many different endings all along?

Modifié par TheChris92, 26 mars 2012 - 06:58 .

[Necrotron]

Spanking Machine wrote...

The fact that the ending isn't happy isn't the reason people are complaining.

Again, the same point must be brought up every time this thread pops up.

Moving on.

[txgoldrush]

Encarmine wrote...

whats it to you OP, were asking for an additional ending that is happy. In a game driven by choice, how would it break the 'artistic whatever crap' of the game

(is anyone else getting sick of talking about artistic vision?>?>?????)

This sucks, where is my happy ending?

Oh wait, the themes of that game, do not call for one, even with all my choices.

[TheHoneyRuns]

txgoldrush wrote...

TheHoneyRuns wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Face it.....a happy ending WOULD break the intergrity of the game.

The MAIN THEME of Mass Effect 3 is VICTORY THROUGH SACRIFICE.. This requires an ending that is bittersweet at best. Yes trilogies as a whole can overlying themes throughout, such as overcoming all odds (which WAS fuffilled in ME3, Shepard DID break the cycle), but single entries in a series or trilogy has their own themes.

Bioware should, and looks like they are, provide far more clarity and closure, however, not change the tone of the ending or provide a happy ending. To do so is selling out and breaking the relevance of the ending....

Hell, ME1 was not a fully happy ending, in fact had elements of victory through sacrifice, as either the a part of the alliance navy or the council is sacrificed, and ME2 is a hollow victory at best. This isn't Star Wars either, where Alderaan and Taris can be annihilated but be no longer relevant 5 minutes later....and end on a ceremony. And ME3 is so dark, a happy ending would not be appropriate.

In fact, ending the current universe and creating a new beginning IS A GOOD THING and a smart move. That needs to stay.

Victory Through Sacrifice was not a theme in ME3.

It wasn't the MAIN THEME or even a SUB THEME. It was a possibility, sure. But not a theme. My Paragon Shepard, at no point in the game, willingly sacrificed anyone. She attempted to stop Mordin, she didn't even have time to try and stop Legion, but given the option, she sure as spitfire would have tried to find another way.

If your Shepard was down with killing people for the 'greater good', bully for you. Mine wasn't. Not applicable to every iteration of Shepard, not a theme.

Victory in the face of Overwhelming Odds, sure. Victory at a Price, I'll take it.

And don't tell me Sacrifice and Price are the same thing, cause they're not. Sacrifice is the willing and knowing, intentional loss of an asset. Price is an absolute cost regardless of the player's decision. My Shepard is a goody two-shoes, but she is not an altruist communist ready to throw herself or anyone else onto the pyre for the 'greater good.'

And regardless of your wooly-headed ideas on themes, just tell me this about your beloved bittersweet ending.

We have the bitter, where's the sweet?

Wrong, Casey Hudson speciically said it is......"Casey sums up Mass Effect 3 as being about victory through sacrifice, the scale of that sacrifice has been increasing with each new chapter"

LOL, I'm well aware of what Casey Hudson said. I'm also aware that up until the last ten minutes of the game, my Shepard was MINE, the beauty of Bioware's vision almost fully intact after three games.

Casey Hudson had direct influence on the ending. He got his nihilistic 'artistic' ending. If you enjoyed that, awesome. Still doesn't make Casey right, nor does it validate your point.

The ending forced sacrifice. Nothing else in the game was that level of controlled.

[EmGo]

 C'mon... really? Artistic integrity for 5th time. 

And to clarify: No. Mass Effect is about choices.

[Aweus]

Eh OP. You are still not addressing one thing. Lets say that someone agrees with you that ME3 is about sacrifice. Becouse it is. Everything that happens before Harbinger hits you with that beam already has tons of sacrifice. More than in ME1 and ME2 combined. If you want to on top of that to kill Shepard, kill Normandy crew, kill entire fleet, heck even kill everything becouse you find it poethic and appropriate, fine, do it. I dont mind. But why you are against options that would make this entire story more bittersweet than simply bitter? Becouse bittersweet is really the best case scenario we can get considering what happened already in ME1, ME2 and ME3. I want my options goddammit, not 3 versions of throwing a fat brick in my face.

[FemmeShep]

Deventh wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

ed87 wrote...

There we go, most people disagree with OP.

/thread

I actually think he has a point.

But the point seems a bit lost, when BioWare decided to discard the majoriy of the themes and plot for the ****ty ending they gave us.

So it's hard for anyone to really care about what OP is saying. 

No, he doesn't have any point. We survived (ALL) in ME2 so why the hell not in 3? If you wanna die then die, Christ... Just give us an option to save some of the crew,LI and Shepard.

What does ME2 have to do with the overall themes of the series? 

Of course your protagonist survived, or there wouldn't have been an ME3. 

[aliengmr1]

Call me when artistic integrity makes games fun again.

[txgoldrush]

LTKerr wrote...

How about an optional ending when your choices matter? How about different endings that make sense? Mass Effect is about choices as well, not only victory through sacrifice.

How about an ending that where all your choices do matter, but STILL be bittersweet.