706 réponses à ce sujet

[CrazyRah]

Wasn't there supposed to be like 16 endings that would offer closure and that we wouldn't have to pick between ABC? We got RGB instead but listening to the fans is part of the job, if the writers can't do that then they will have problem

[gameshrk]

Victory  through sacrifice is all well and good.

Victory through nonsensical actions and rediculous cost, is not.

[AlienWolf728]

CrazyRah wrote...

Wasn't there supposed to be like 16 endings that would offer closure and that we wouldn't have to pick between ABC? We got RGB instead but listening to the fans is part of the job, if the writers can't do that then they will have problem

^

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

Artistic integrity is not a way to defend an ending. If the art is bad paint over it and do something new.

[Rashala]

adding the CHANCE at a happy ending is not breakign the artistic its just giveing the gamer the option

[txgoldrush]

People need to learn their RPG history.

[Garlador]

If Bioware had "artistic integrity", they wouldn't have approved those endings.

I really get upset at the idea that "happy" means it's childish or bad. "Happiness" is one of the hardest things in life to achieve; at least in fiction and fantasy, I'd like to find happiness. Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, and Star Wars are not lesser creations because they had happy endings. "Dark" does not equal" deep".

And changing things does not mean you betray artistic integrity. Shakespeare changes his plays due to audience feedback. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle brought Sherlock Holmes back from the dead due to fan demand. Charles Dickens gave "Great Expectations" a happier ending after readers complained. Herman Melville added in an extra chapter of "Moby Dick" to fix plotholes.

If people want true, pure "artistic integrity", they'd never sell it to an audience en mass for $60 with day-one DLC and online multiplayer. They'd make a game for themselves and themselves alone. But that's not the case. Art can be commercial, and integrity can exist with compromise. To alter a product into something greater than it was due to audience response is an art in and of itself. It takes a special kind of skill to accept criticism and more skill to apply your skills effectively to negate this criticism.

If one truly has artistic integrity, they'll have the integrity to realize which parts of their craft were underwhelming and disappointing and remedy them. That's how artists improve and succeed. To do otherwise is to stagnate.

[TheHoneyRuns]

txgoldrush wrote...

LTKerr wrote...

How about an optional ending when your choices matter? How about different endings that make sense? Mass Effect is about choices as well, not only victory through sacrifice.

How about an ending that where all your choices do matter, but STILL be bittersweet.

Everyone died, Texas. What's bittersweet? Series logic dictates that mass relays blowing up destroys systems. Even if they didn't die because of space magic, everyone is stranded, commerce is dead and everyone starves to death.

There is no bittersweet ending. There is just mass genocide.

[Joccaren]

txgoldrush wrote...

LTKerr wrote...

How about an optional ending when your choices matter? How about different endings that make sense? Mass Effect is about choices as well, not only victory through sacrifice.

How about an ending that where all your choices do matter, but STILL be bittersweet.

That would satisfy most people - so long as the sacrifice wasn't shoehorned in as a diabolus ex machina. There is no reason for the Relays to blow. There is no reason for Shepard to die. There is no reason for every ship in orbit of Earth to now be disabled by the energy sent out by the Crucible, resulting in the Deaths of the majority of Sword.
Provide legitimate paths for Shepard's death, most wouldn't mind. Force the death, and damn right we'll be pissed.

[Fraevar]

Ok let's stop for a second. Whether or not you agree with the themes present in the ending is a completely separate issue from the implementation of said themes. What I'm seeing most people say is that they fully respect and understand BioWare's desire for an ending involving a heroic sacrifice, but what they want is an implementation that:

Doesn't break existing lore (the Mass Relays exploding causes supernova-level damage, as established in Arrival).

Doesn't break the pattern of the protagonist (Commander Shepard has never been someone to just passively accept that there's only certain outcomes).

Doesn't completely discount the decisions the player has made throughout three games.

When the most coherent interpretation of the ending involves making it all an illusion, then yes, there is a problem with the presentation of the ending. And that - presentation - not theme is where I'm seeing most of the critique justifiebly aimed at.

[txgoldrush]

Garlador wrote...

If Bioware had "artistic integrity", they wouldn't have approved those endings.

I really get upset at the idea that "happy" means it's childish or bad. "Happiness" is one of the hardest things in life to achieve; at least in fiction and fantasy, I'd like to find happiness. Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, and Star Wars are not lesser creations because they had happy endings. "Dark" does not equal" deep".

And changing things does not mean you betray artistic integrity. Shakespeare changes his plays due to audience feedback. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle brought Sherlock Holmes back from the dead due to fan demand. Charles Dickens gave "Great Expectations" a happier ending after readers complained. Herman Melville added in an extra chapter of "Moby Dick" to fix plotholes.

If people want true, pure "artistic integrity", they'd never sell it to an audience en mass for $60 with day-one DLC and online multiplayer. They'd make a game for themselves and themselves alone. But that's not the case. Art can be commercial, and integrity can exist with compromise. To alter a product into something greater than it was due to audience response is an art in and of itself. It takes a special kind of skill to accept criticism and more skill to apply your skills effectively to negate this criticism.

If one truly has artistic integrity, they'll have the integrity to realize which parts of their craft were underwhelming and disappointing and remedy them. That's how artists improve and succeed. To do otherwise is to stagnate.

Which they are...

The PROBLEM witth the ending was that it was RUSHED, lacked DETAIL, lacked CLOSURE, and did not account for choices well.

The problem is NOT that there is no happy ending.

Bioware seems to be fixing the real problem, not the fake one.

[Aweus]

 Besides, Shepard's death in current endings was not even cool. Mordin's death was touching. Why? Becouse he went on top of that tower to get the job done even though he knew he will die. He didnt had to do it, the thing he had to do was not even the highest stake. He could choose to back away, go with the fraud version. But he didnt. And he did this with the smile on his face. That was true sacrifice. Mordin is salarian Jesus. He made his choice (btw. you can still save Mordin you know).

Shepard? He/she was doing his/her job and then he/she met this space kid who presented him/her with End-a-tron 3000 RGB edition - three convenient ways to commit suicide. All I read from Shepard at that point was resignation. Not that kind of sacrfice I would call uplifting. Not by a long shot.

Modifié par Aweus, 26 mars 2012 - 07:14 .

[wikkedjester]

So is gutting the CAT mission and reselling it to us for 10 bucks. Oh hold on that's not integrity never mind, artistic integrity they have not.

[TheHoneyRuns]

You can't fix stupid.

[dognip5]

txgoldrush wrote...

Face it.....a happy ending WOULD break the intergrity of the game.

The MAIN THEME of Mass Effect 3 is VICTORY THROUGH SACRIFICE.. This requires an ending that is bittersweet at best. Yes trilogies as a whole can overlying themes throughout, such as overcoming all odds (which WAS fuffilled in ME3, Shepard DID break the cycle), but single entries in a series or trilogy has their own themes.

Bioware should, and looks like they are, provide far more clarity and closure, however, not change the tone of the ending or provide a happy ending. To do so is selling out and breaking the relevance of the ending....

Hell, ME1 was not a fully happy ending, in fact had elements of victory through sacrifice, as either the a part of the alliance navy or the council is sacrificed, and ME2 is a hollow victory at best. This isn't Star Wars either, where Alderaan and Taris can be annihilated but be no longer relevant 5 minutes later....and end on a ceremony. And ME3 is so dark, a happy ending would not be appropriate.

In fact, ending the current universe and creating a new beginning IS A GOOD THING and a smart move. That needs to stay.

http://t2.gstatic.co...EDFCwukLhKXM9vQ

Extra content that gives the player a choice to recieve their "happy ending" does not break the integrity of the game.

Modifié par dognip5, 26 mars 2012 - 07:11 .

[txgoldrush]

TheHoneyRuns wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

LTKerr wrote...

How about an optional ending when your choices matter? How about different endings that make sense? Mass Effect is about choices as well, not only victory through sacrifice.

How about an ending that where all your choices do matter, but STILL be bittersweet.

Everyone died, Texas. What's bittersweet? Series logic dictates that mass relays blowing up destroys systems. Even if they didn't die because of space magic, everyone is stranded, commerce is dead and everyone starves to death.

There is no bittersweet ending. There is just mass genocide.

Or that the species finds invented new ways to survive....which is established with Cortez talking about how refugees salvaged the SSV London.

Is the galaxy sent back quite a ways, yes, but its a tradoff to ensured death. Nevermind the whole galaxy functioned off Reaper designs, ending the Reapers ends their designs.

[Iakus]

What I want to know is why any ending which Shepard can survive is automatically a Disneyfied happy ending?

[MPSai]

Victory through sacrifice, there's already been a ton of sacrifice so what's wrong with actually having the victory?

[thehomeworld]

Artistic integrity is for lame people to use as a shield against bad ideas that the market doesn't like. It basically the market saying we hate this and them going talk to the hand.

[TheHoneyRuns]

Yes, and as you so rightly pointed out with a picture, now for the future of the series we get to enjoy...

Post-apocalypse? Again.

....hurrah.

[Phyzzix]

Ok, first of all, we need to really stop with this whole "artistic integrity" saying. Yeah, it sounds cool and sophisticated, but the ending has no "artistic integrity" anyways. The only thing that can be considered an art is it's unprecedented ability to leave more questions after the ending then there were before the ending...

[txgoldrush]

Delerius_Jedi wrote...

Ok let's stop for a second. Whether or not you agree with the themes present in the ending is a completely separate issue from the implementation of said themes. What I'm seeing most people say is that they fully respect and understand BioWare's desire for an ending involving a heroic sacrifice, but what they want is an implementation that:

Doesn't break existing lore (the Mass Relays exploding causes supernova-level damage, as established in Arrival).

Doesn't break the pattern of the protagonist (Commander Shepard has never been someone to just passively accept that there's only certain outcomes).

Doesn't completely discount the decisions the player has made throughout three games.

When the most coherent interpretation of the ending involves making it all an illusion, then yes, there is a problem with the presentation of the ending. And that - presentation - not theme is where I'm seeing most of the critique justifiebly aimed at.

Agrred for the most part...I think the themes of the ending were great, the execution was not great.

Many fans want the theme to be changed...thats a request BW should not answer.

However, Bioware should address the endings real and true flaws.

[legionaireshen]

So students can refuse to make changes to their essay because they need to maintain academic integrity
and government can refuse to make changes to their policy when economy goes bad because they need to maintain bureaucratic integrity
and football team can refuse to make changes when they keep losing because they need to maintain tactic integrity

[FrozenDreamfall]

I am an artist myself in many fields and I have way too much to argue
with this.Making art is different from making massive,multiple choices
games.Yes say games are art,they are,but they are still games and
marketing means.Costumers don't like it,they complain.In art it's only
you involved,your creation that the world views,make their opinions upon
and move on.In games,specially games like this,the art is shared and
personalized for every person,so in a way they become like an artist
themselves,they can alter that art and change it how they see fit.When
you show a painting it's only your hard work,your own vision that you
won't allow to be touched by others.In a game that vision is shared,you
practically give it to everyone and say,make your own world out of
this.So we do,but it ends up not being how we wanted to and how we
promised it would be.There is a lot to debate on this but you can't
compare an artistic game to regular art such as
sculpture,painting,music,it's different.Also I for one never said I
wanted the end changed,it would be great but very difficult,unless the
real ending is on the DVD and they're gonna make another goddamn unlock
DLC for it.We wanted an ending that made sense.Art doesn't have to make
sense,everyone views it personally how they want to,but a game is much
different.Art is personal reflection,games are a general perspective.It
shouldn't leave room for interpretation,not in a game this massive
anyways and not when the whole theme of the game was made on "your own
personal choice,your own personal ending and the choices you made
personally will have consequences on everyone".It's just like making a
custom painting for someone and that person asks you to use shades of
grey and red and you use blue and black.Of course they're gonna be
like,but you promised you'd use grey and red,and you're like oh no,I
decided to change it like this cause it personally looks better to me
like this.It's not what the costumer wanted,that painting was not made
on
your own terms and perspective,you were doing it FOR someone,not FOR
yourself.And games are made FOR the public.You don't tell the public:
I'll do many copies of this painting and you can all change it how you
want after.No,you make one original and individual copy and hope someone
will like it and buy it.Games are made in masses FOR the masses and
the masses weren't pleased.
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Modifié par FrozenDreamfall, 26 mars 2012 - 07:32 .

[UNOCK]

Most people here have (In *my* not-so humble opinion, mind you) missunderstood the ME universe.

It's not a sunny unicorn and flowers universe where everything will be alright at the end. The point BioWare is pushing at the end here, is that no matter what you do, what you choose... no matter what, some things are inevitable. Sometimes, there's a life you *can't* save. (Legion, Mordin, Thane, Shepard)

And the Mass Effect Universe is a dark place. Full of crime bosses, organizations all too willing to "bend the law" or just **** it completely over, corrupt politicians... etc

How many times have Shepard helped people he/she in a unicorn universe wouldn't even have met? That's what makes the universe so compelling. There's something distinctly *human* about Mass Effect. Which is also the main theme... "The Duality of Man" as it were. How a person can do bad things, or good things... how a person can be corrupt, or "evil" as some would have it. (again, not a unicorn universe, so there shouldn't be any "good" or "evil") or a paragon of justice.

The endings are perfectly in tone with the Universe, and doesn't break the "artistic intergrity"
But only on Shepards death.
My main problem with the ending, is that they have this ending... and it has nothing to do with the theme (Shepards death excepted), the plot, the universe or anything... I enjoyed the game immensly, and it actually took me time before I figured the endings were wrong. The Indoctrination theory doesn't fit, even. (Due to how it has been described in the books... of course, that could be explained as the game overriding the book canon), Starchild doesn't fit, the lack of Harbinger doesn't fit, and quite frankly -. the lack of indoctrination doesn't fit. (Not ONE in the crew? **** that.)

But on artistic intergrity? If artistic integrity is keeping you from making your product (art or not) fullfill it's potential, then you should throw the intergrity out the door and keep on going. And if your hardcore fanbase is shouting at you "WHAT IS THIS?!" then you done wrong.

I don't care if they only modify the endings to fix up the plotholes, that's fine by me. As long as these endings don't stand.