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[Jacks-Up]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Jacks-Up wrote...

There are 2 types of people on this thread those who "Read the Description" of Blood Magic before choosing it and those who didn't.  I think you know what category you fall into.

"Every mage can feel the dark lure of blood magic" 

First sentence in the description reading is a wonderful thing.

The "bad" image of Blood Magic specifically comes from the Chantry and the Circle of Magi, probably because the Tevinter used (and still do use) slaves to fuel their Blood Magic.  The player character uses his or her own life force to channel Blood Magic.

So yeah, there are two types of people: those who read without thinking and passively absorb information and those who read while analyzing and actively digest information.

So it's all the Chantry fault now is it lol.

Sorry but you're reaching black is never going to be white no matter how hard you try to analyze and convince yourself it is.

[Jacks-Up]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Jacks-Up wrote...

There are 2 types of people on this thread those who "Read the Description" of Blood Magic before choosing it and those who didn't.  I think you know what category you fall into.

"Every mage can feel the dark lure of blood magic" 

First sentence in the description reading is a wonderful thing.

I know there's no point in that, but still:

There are two types of people in this topic - those who read descriptions and those who think themselves.

So are you suggesting the description in the game is wrong and the right description is just what you think it is?

[The Capital Gaultier]

Jacks-Up wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Jacks-Up wrote...

There are 2 types of people on this thread those who "Read the Description" of Blood Magic before choosing it and those who didn't.  I think you know what category you fall into.

"Every mage can feel the dark lure of blood magic" 

First sentence in the description reading is a wonderful thing.

The "bad" image of Blood Magic specifically comes from the Chantry and the Circle of Magi, probably because the Tevinter used (and still do use) slaves to fuel their Blood Magic.  The player character uses his or her own life force to channel Blood Magic.

So yeah, there are two types of people: those who read without thinking and passively absorb information and those who read while analyzing and actively digest information.

So it's all the Chantry fault now is it lol.

Sorry but you're reaching black is never going to be white no matter how hard you try to analyze and convince yourself it is.

I don't think you can blame the Chantry for having an opinion.  I do think you can blame people for not having their own opinion, though.

[Curlain]

Truth be told whether you fall on the side of the use of blood magic makes it inheritely wrong, or that it's a legitmate tool, it's really one of those things that isn't going to be resolved (much like debates about Morrigan or Loghain's character), it's very much a subjective matter of personal interpretation, the actual ingame gaining of blood magic could be seen dark since it involvees screwing Connor over (though I always thought my cunning mage would just say to everone after that the ending of his battle in the Fade was somewhat inconclusive and that the mage circle would need to prepare and protect Connor for the desire demon to attempt to possess him, thus screwing over the desire demon instead :-)), though I hear you can intimidate the blood mage knowledge out of her so this might not be the case after all.



Everything else despite this people will reach their own conclusions about from their experiences in DA and their interactions and reactions to it, and I think with something as subjective as a view on blood magic evil/dark/neutral/just a path of magic could all be equally true or not until blood mages are more definitively explored by BioWare in future DA work. Until then, each and every opinon could be right

[The Capital Gaultier]

Curlain wrote...

...the actual ingame gaining of blood magic could be seen dark since it involvees screwing Connor over (though I always thought my cunning mage would just say to everone after that the ending of his battle in the Fade was somewhat inconclusive and that the mage circle would need to prepare and protect Connor for the desire demon to attempt to possess him, thus screwing over the desire demon instead :-)), though I hear you can intimidate the blood mage knowledge out of her so this might not be the case after all.

I didn't need to do anything to unlock Blood Magic on my Mage.  Call it whatever you want, but in-game, there is no requirement for your character to unlock Blood Magic in order to become a Blood Mage.

[Ulicus]

Blood Magic is a very powerful tool with applications that have often brought out the worst in people. It isn't the dark side of the Force. When it corrupts, it does so in exactly the same way any power can.



The moral dilemma, in the game, isn't the blood magic itself... it's the way by which you acquire knowledge of it. Is it worth it? It's up for debate. Some of my characters think it is, some of them don't.



Of course, since I unlocked the specialisation, I've stopped bartering with the demon and now pretend that my Blood Mages are self taught through books they've stolen from Maleficar, instead. I have a clean conscience.

[Curlain]

O_O, I certainly did, I needed to make a deal with Connor's desire demon, otherwise no blood mage, I'm pretty sure that's one of the few (if only ways) you normally get it ingame (well with the first mage PC anyway, after that you can have it for others, since it unlocks on your player profile)

[Mavkiel]

Yeah its pretty sad thats the only way you can learn blood magic. It would have made sense if you could learn it from a certain sets of scrolls you find lying around

[The Capital Gaultier]

Curlain wrote...

O_O, I certainly did, I needed to make a deal with Connor's desire demon, otherwise no blood mage, I'm pretty sure that's one of the few (if only ways) you normally get it ingame (well with the first mage PC anyway, after that you can have it for others, since it unlocks on your player profile)

Yeah, the player profile unlocks are what did it for me.  Saves money on books, too.

[Jacks-Up]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

I didn't need to do anything to unlock Blood Magic on my Mage.  Call it whatever you want, but in-game, there is no requirement for your character to unlock Blood Magic in order to become a Blood Mage.

Cheating to unlock something than saying it's not evil because I didn't need to make the deal with the demon is an all time /Facepalm moment

[The Capital Gaultier]

Jacks-Up wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

I didn't need to do anything to unlock Blood Magic on my Mage.  Call it whatever you want, but in-game, there is no requirement for your character to unlock Blood Magic in order to become a Blood Mage.

Cheating to unlock something than saying it's not evil because I didn't need to make the deal with the demon is an all time /Facepalm moment

How is it cheating when it's the game's default behavior?

[Jacks-Up]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Jacks-Up wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

I didn't need to do anything to unlock Blood Magic on my Mage.  Call it whatever you want, but in-game, there is no requirement for your character to unlock Blood Magic in order to become a Blood Mage.

Cheating to unlock something than saying it's not evil because I didn't need to make the deal with the demon is an all time /Facepalm moment

How is it cheating when it's the game's default behavior?

It just is besides look at the description again " Dark Lure of Blood Magic" If you submit to the "Dark Lure" you're basically submitting to evil.  nuff said.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Jacks-Up wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Jacks-Up wrote...

There are 2 types of people on this thread those who "Read the Description" of Blood Magic before choosing it and those who didn't.  I think you know what category you fall into.

"Every mage can feel the dark lure of blood magic" 

First sentence in the description reading is a wonderful thing.

I know there's no point in that, but still:

There are two types of people in this topic - those who read descriptions and those who think themselves.

So are you suggesting the description in the game is wrong and the right description is just what you think it is?

The description - quite obviously - should match the common knowledge in the game world about the topic. So it is OK. However, the common knowledge is not necessary the objective truth. In fact, it rarely is.

[Jacks-Up]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...


The description - quite obviously - should match the common knowledge in the game world about the topic. So it is OK. However, the common knowledge is not necessary the objective truth. In fact, it rarely is.

So now you're suggesting that the descriptions for classes in the game are just wrong?

/facepalm  /headdesk  /sigh.......

Modifié par Jacks-Up, 07 décembre 2009 - 06:26 .

[Original182]

Previously in this thread, I reasoned that we as gamers cannot determine what is evil or not, because we only see the practical side of things. We do not feel what the npcs feel when we see blood magic in action. We see it as just another form of magic that does damage, crowd-control, etc. The key that makes something evil is it's immorality.

Another example of an evil blood magic at work is the Anvil of the Void. Caridin was a dwarf who didn't believe in the Maker or the Chantry. No one told him "Blood magic is evil" which made him automatically dismiss blood magic as evil. The process of turning dwarves into golems was so horrifying that at one point he just didn't want to do it anymore. So his king made him into a golem as punishment, and that finally made him realize the extent of the Anvil's evil. Despite us gamers seeing the anvil's potential to create an unstoppable golem force as a good thing, it is too immoral for Caridin that whatever potential it has cannot justify it's existence.

If we ignore morals, then blood magic can never be evil because there will always be practical use of it to justify itself. I compare it to Loghain selling slaves to the Tevinter to fund his war effort againt the Blight. If we ignore morals, then selling slaves seem like a good idea because the slaves don't fight as well and the money could be used for soldiers. Practically it seems like a good idea. But slavery is wrong, because we can relate it to real life. But we don't have blood magic in real life (maybe BLACK magic) so that's why we have trouble understanding why a game mechanic is evil.

So if the consensus of Ferelden is that blood magic is evil, then it is. The inhabitants of Ferelden can feel it's immorality, but we gamers can't. Blood magic is evil not simply because the Chantry says so. Blood magic is one of those inherently evil things in Ferelden, and the Chantry, mages and even a godless dwarf believes that it is.

Modifié par Original182, 07 décembre 2009 - 06:45 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

Jacks-Up wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...


The description - quite obviously - should match the common knowledge in the game world about the topic. So it is OK. However, the common knowledge is not necessary the objective truth. In fact, it rarely is.

So now you're suggesting that the descriptions for classes in the game are just wrong?

/facepalm  /headdesk  /sigh.......

OR, you might try reading what I wrote. Just for diversity. 
The descriptions should reflect what is generally known about a class, power, skill, whatever - in the game world. 
It needs to say "blood magic is evil", because that is the way it is commonly perceived. 
The general knowledge, however, does not need to be truth. As I already said, few centuries back the general knowledge said that the Earth was flat.

[Jacks-Up]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...




OR, you might try reading what I wrote. Just for diversity. 

I did read it and what you're saying is that I'm wrong the description in the game is wrong and the way you perceive things is right because you know and see thing that the game developers and writers do not.

Delusion much?


Your basically saying that you're perceiving something a certain way and than offering it as proof and hard evidence. Which in reality it is nothing more then a far fetched personal assumption.

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

The descriptions should reflect what is generally known about a class, power, skill, whatever - in the game world. 
It needs to say "blood magic is evil", because that is the way it is commonly perceived. 
The general knowledge, however, does not need to be truth. As I already said, few centuries back the general knowledge said that the Earth was flat.

1. It does say it's evil "Dark Lure of Blood Magic" Does not mean Sunshine and Roses.

2. No where or anywhere does it say that the descriptions in the game are just common knowledge. You said that and where you got that from no one knows.  The description are there soly for the players to provide an understanding of a class specializations to help pick which one you want.

You can't assume 90% of somthing as your own idea of what somthing should be and offer it as fact.

Modifié par Jacks-Up, 07 décembre 2009 - 08:01 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

Jacks-Up wrote...

I did read it and what you're saying is that I'm wrong the description in the game is wrong and the way you perceive things is right because you know and see thing that the game developers and writers do not.

Your basically saying that you're perceiving something a certain way and than offering it as proof and hard evidence. Which in reality it is nothing more then a far fetched personal assumption. 

No. This is exactly the point which you miss.
Let me try one more time, although I doubt very much that there is a point in this....

Basically, what I am saying is that:
1) Good and evil are moral categories. Universally.
2) Being so, they only have a meaning for sentient beings, since only sentient beings can be capable of understanding and accepting a moral code. Universally.
3) A power is not a sentient being. Universally.
2) and 3) => 4) A power can not be good or evil, since it lacks sentience. Universally.

If you disagree with some of the points, let me know which ones and why.
Also, if you disagree with 1), please provide your definitions of good and evil.

Oh, yes, and I said one more thing:
5) Descriptions need to reflect the general knowledge, not the objective truth.
You may provide your arguments if you disagree on that one as well.

Modifié par Alex Savchovsky, 07 décembre 2009 - 08:04 .

[Jacks-Up]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...



1) Good and evil are moral categories. Universally.

The answer to this question is in the description of Blood Magic that you refuse to accept.  "Every Mage can fell the DARK LURE of Blood Magic"  If you give in to the dark lure of Blood Magic you are basically giving in or accepting to become evil.

Alex Savchovsky wrote...
3) A power is not a sentient being. Universally.
2) and 3) => 4) A power can not be good or evil, since it lacks sentience. Universally.

Because Blood Magic corrupts it's user as well, it says this in the game more then once.

Once again you really need to pay more attention to the game you're playing.

Alex Savchovsky wrote...
Oh, yes, and I said one more thing:
5) Descriptions need to reflect the general knowledge, not the objective truth.
You may provide your arguments if you disagree on that one as well.

No where or anywhere does it say that the descriptions in the game are just common knowledge. You said that and where you got that from no one knows. The description are there soly for the players to provide an understanding of a class specializations to help pick which one you want.

You can't assume 90% of something as your own idea of what something should be and offer it as fact.

I'm sick of repeating myself you're just not getting it and simply offering you own far fetched assumptions and opinions as fact. You can think what you want but that doesn't necessarily make it so.  I'm at least going by what the descriptions and game says.

Modifié par Jacks-Up, 07 décembre 2009 - 08:26 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

OK, I'm not going to argue with you anymore. You do not have any intention to debate, you keep repeating your views and ignore my questions.

[Jacks-Up]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

OK, I'm not going to argue with you anymore. You do not have any intention to debate, you keep repeating your views and ignore my questions.

ROFL I'm not ignoring anything and I have answered your questions along with about 5 other people you're just not accepting them and keep applying your own assumption / question over and over again as counter points. 

Seriously how many people need to answer your same questions before you finally accept the answer.

Modifié par Jacks-Up, 07 décembre 2009 - 08:41 .

[mrao]

Just want to point out that you can intimidate the demon to leave connor for ever and teach you blood magic (or one of the other trades she gives). You need to pass 2 intimidate checks, so you probably need max persuade.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Jacks-Up wrote...

ROFL I'm not ignoring anything and I have answered your questions along with about 5 other people

Really?
Please quote for me an answer to my question:

Are good and evil moral categories and if not, how do you define them?

I do not accept random ramble about dark lures as an answer to THAT question, sure.
The answers I would accept are 
1) Yes.
2) No, they are <definition>

[Jacks-Up]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Jacks-Up wrote...

ROFL I'm not ignoring anything and I have answered your questions along with about 5 other people

Really?
Please quote for me an answer to my question:

Are good and evil moral categories and if not, how do you define them?

I do not accept random ramble about dark lures as an answer to THAT question, sure.
The answers I would accept are 
1) Yes.
2) No, they are

LOL No you're just not accepting the answer period.  Choosing to turn to blood magic is the same thing as choosing to become evil.  The only person who is spiting out random ramble is you. You're ignoring the answers were giving you and making your own assumptions. Sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it to.

Like I said I'm at least going by the description and what the game says. You on the other hand are going by a theoretical question that's opinion based and thus can only have an opinion based answer that has nothing to do with the game and attempting to pass it off as fact.

Blood Magic is essentially Dark / Evil energy that corrupts it's user.  However such a thing does not exist in the real world so trying to apply theoretical question to it that applys to the real world isn't going to work. The only realy thing you can go by is the description and what the game says and right now it says Blood Magic is evil.

Sorry try again

Modifié par Jacks-Up, 08 décembre 2009 - 03:43 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

I have absolutely no intention to. At least until I get a straight answer to my question.