326 réponses à ce sujet

[Jacks-Up]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

I have absolutely no intention to. At least until I get a straight answer to my question.

Wanting a straight answer to an opinionated Question = Fail

An opinion cannot have a straight answer it's "Your opinion"  you can think what you want but that's doesn't necessarily make it so, especially when you don't have any evidence or fact to back it up.

I on the other hand am simply going by what the game tells me and that's not an opinion that's just the way it is.  You can have an opinion on if you think that's right or wrong but like I said that doesn't necessarily make it so.

You will never accept any answer that doesn't 100% agree with you reguardless of the facts thrown in your face. Besides you haven't answered any question that has been given to you even tho facts and evidence have been put before you.

What was your facts and evidence again? Oh yeah It's my opinion and you didn't answer my theoretical question the way I wanted so I'm right.  Good Job.

Modifié par Jacks-Up, 08 décembre 2009 - 04:03 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

I will not accept an answer that is totally unrelated. "The description says that..." is not an answer to the question "are good and evil moral categories", period. I do not want to read ONCE MORE your opinion on the matter, I tried to show you the logic I used. Yet you refused. So be it.

[OneBadAssMother]

Wynne: "This is Blood Magic! Surely you would not stoop to such a thing."



PC: "Umm, Wynne, I don't know if you've noticed, but i've been using Blood Magic since around level 10.



Wynne: "Wait... what?!?"



PC: "Yeah, you know the bit in combat where those guys chests stick out? Blood Magic."



Wynne: "That's easily missable..."



PC: "The glowing red blood aura around me when I run low on mana yet keep casting spells. Blood Magic.



Wynne: "Well... I have more important things to do than look at you in combat."



PC: "The sudden losses of health you get peroidically. That's me using your lifeforce."



Wynne: "What?!? I thought that was that spirit."



PC: "Infact Wynne, I don't know if you've noticed, but your second specialisation is Blood Mage... you yourself know Blood Magic.



Wynne: "Well... that certainly changes things."

ROFL ROFL ROFL

[Jacks-Up]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

I will not accept an answer that is totally unrelated. "The description says that..." is not an answer to the question "are good and evil moral categories", period. I do not want to read ONCE MORE your opinion on the matter, I tried to show you the logic I used. Yet you refused. So be it.

How can I possibly give you a straight answer to your own opinion? The only person that can do that is you. You cannot ask a theoretical / opinionated question and pass it off as fact it doesn't work that way buddy. My points are thus.

1. The description in the game says blood magic is evil " Yes Dark Lure = Evil" this is just common sense.

2. Everybody in the game "not just the chantry" says Blood Magic is evil.

3. The way you go about unlocking it is evil. Got to be a pretty bad person to do something like make a deal with a demon for a boys soul.

4. It comes from Demons which last time I checked Demons = Evil spirits of the Fade.

Those aren't opinions those are just facts taken from the game.

Lets recap the game says it's evil, NPC's say it's evil, it comes from demons which are evil & and the way you go about getting it is evil. So don't you think I don't know maybe it is evil?

What is your logic again? Oh yeah an opinionated theoretical question that has no definite answer except for the one you can only provide for yourself. Good show.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Jacks-Up wrote...

1. The description in the game says blood magic is evil " Yes Dark Lure = Evil" this is just common sense.

The description itself is an opinion and not a fact. 

Jacks-Up wrote...

2. Everybody in the game "not just the chantry" says Blood Magic is evil.

That's again opinion and not a fact.

Jacks-Up wrote...

3. The way you go about unlocking it is evil. Got to be a pretty bad person to do something like make a deal with a demon for a boys soul.

That's a restriction forced on you by the plot... and not a fact. Unless you find a description that says "oh, btw, u has to sacrifice a virgin's soul to get it, kthxbye".

Jacks-Up wrote...

4. It comes from Demons which last time I checked Demons = Evil spirits of the Fade.

It doesn't matter where it comes from. Because it's a tool. If a demon gave you a spoon, would it carry a "dark lure"? And would you consider eating with it an evil act?

Basically you're sticking to what the game tells you much like a medieval fanatic to the Bible. And because of that you ignore both logic and common sense.

[Eonassassin]

 killing blood mages for being  blood mages by using blood magic is very fun indeed

[ReubenLiew]

If the girl weighs as much as a duck, she must therefore be a blood mage!

[Mr7.7]

I agree Jack,players who choose to become a blood mage should suffer a slow and agonizing death. (of course, I don't mean the player should suffer such a death,their player character should suffice).

Blood Mages are an abomination to ferelden and the only way to deal with abominations is to exterminate them.I believe the chantry does not go far enough, all mages deserve death, to allow such corrupted beings to live is an insult to the maker!

Modifié par Mr7.7, 09 décembre 2009 - 03:46 .

[LordAsael]

There are a number of spells that could be considered evil in the game ... the nightmare combination comes to mind. I think the restriction on blood magic comes about for a few reasons. First, it clearly makes a mage even more powerful by removing their attachment to their own mana pool through the use of their own life force and that of their allies. A blood mage can do things that a circle mage would require a great supply of lyrium to accomplish, such as entering the fade to save Connor. The story tells us that the mages circle has a monopoly on lyrium supplies and the circle is under the watchful eyes of the Chantry's templars. Ferelden finds mages to be too powerful already, people tend to be fearful of mages if not hostile. Anything that makes a mage even more powerful is therefore going to be considered evil, and I think that is why blood magic is forbidden.



As for the impact on the game ... I find it quite odd that you can spec Wynn into that specialization. I've tried it, and it sorta ruined the immersion for me when Wynn was a blood mage. I won't do that again. I do think that your party should notice that you're using blood magic and Wynn and Alistair should confront you about this. Various dialogue options should cause a critical loss of standing with these individuals, but there should also be a line where you can talk your way out of it, doing it for the good of Ferelden, et cetera. There should still be a fairly steep loss of standing with them even in that situation. I could even see no net loss of reputation if you had consumed the blood in Warden's Keep and passed your newfound abilities off as an improved mastery of the taint.



I think this is a fairly significant oversight in development. It hasn't ruined the game for me by any stretch, but it would have been nice if there was some attention given to your choice. Especially with all the attention given to the forbidden nature of the specialization. Even if there was a reason given as to why no one seemed to notice.

[Original182]

Yes agreed LordAsael. And again, it takes your post to realize how side-tracked this thread has become.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Mr7.7 wrote...

I agree Jack,players who choose to become a blood mage should suffer a slow and agonizing death. (of course, I don't mean the player should suffer such a death,their player character should suffice).

Blood Mages are an abomination to ferelden and the only way to deal with abominations is to exterminate them.I believe the chantry does not go far enough, all mages deserve death, to allow such corrupted beings to live is an insult to the maker!

I believe the mages should be free and wiping out the Chantry seems like a good start.

[DarkNeoCloud]

Also fact is, it states multiple times in the game, that the grey wardens use what ever is possible to beat the blight, in this case, they dont care if you use Blood magic

[Original182]

DarkNeoCloud wrote...

Also fact is, it states multiple times in the game, that the grey wardens use what ever is possible to beat the blight, in this case, they dont care if you use Blood magic

Yes that makes Blood Magic acceptable to the Grey Wardens. But it doesn't change whether it's evil or not.

Modifié par Original182, 09 décembre 2009 - 06:38 .

[Jacks-Up]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Jacks-Up wrote...

1. The description in the game says blood magic is evil " Yes Dark Lure = Evil" this is just common sense.

The description itself is an opinion and not a fact. 

A description can not be an opinion period. You cannot say that the game developers only have an opinion on what there game is, it's what they wanted it to be. Saying an in game description is an opinion shows just how full of nonsense you are.  I think you need to get a dictionary and and look op both opinion and description.

Sorry but a description is not an opinion.

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Jacks-Up wrote...

2. Everybody in the game "not just the chantry" says Blood Magic is evil.

That's again opinion and not a fact.

How do you figure that's an opinion? It's not my opinion that everyone says blood magic in the game is evil they literary say it.

Once again I think you need to get a dictionary and look up the words opinion and description.

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Jacks-Up wrote...

3. The way you go about unlocking it is evil. Got to be a pretty bad person to do something like make a deal with a demon for a boys soul.

That's a restriction forced on you by the plot... and not a fact. Unless you find a description that says "oh, btw, u has to sacrifice a virgin's soul to get it, kthxbye".

It's forced on you in such a way to show just how bad it is and that the only way to attain it is to be bad.

Thanks for proving my point.

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Jacks-Up wrote...

4. It comes from Demons which last time I checked Demons = Evil spirits of the Fade.

It doesn't matter where it comes from. Because it's a tool. If a demon gave you a spoon, would it carry a "dark lure"? And would you consider eating with it an evil act?

Yes it does matter where it comes from and if this spoon was in the game and the games description said it had a "Dark Lure" and had potential to corrupt me and make me evil than yes, doing anything except destroying it would be an admittance of evil.

Alex Savchovsky wrote...
Basically you're sticking to what the game tells you much like a medieval fanatic to the Bible. And because of that you ignore both logic and common sense.

ROFL Logic and common sense would be going by what the game tells you not by some wild assumption and conclusions you somehow came to in your head with out any actual proof or facts.

You're saying I'm wrong because I'm strictly going by what the game tells me. Well what are you going by besides you wild assumptions that the writers don't know what they're talking about? FYI this is a fantasy world where basically anything that Bioware says goes so once again read the description right after you look the word up in the dictionary.

Modifié par Jacks-Up, 09 décembre 2009 - 07:43 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

Jacks-Up wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Jacks-Up wrote...

1. The description in the game says blood magic is evil " Yes Dark Lure = Evil" this is just common sense.

The description itself is an opinion and not a fact. 

A description can not be an opinion period. You cannot say that the game developers only have an opinion on what there game is, it's what they wanted it to be. 

Being a game developer myself, let me repeat: the description is an opinion. It simply needs to be the most probable opinion on the matter you would encounter in the world - for the sole reason of not breaking the experience.

[Jacks-Up]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...


Being a game developer myself, let me repeat: the description is an opinion. It simply needs to be the most probable opinion on the matter you would encounter in the world - for the sole reason of not breaking the experience.

Ok lets put aside the fact you basically said I'm probably right (Thank You)

A description can not be an opinion period end of discussion.  Get a dictionary and look it up if you don't believe me.

However a description can be wrong where an opinion cannot.   You can in fact wrongfully describe something, however I highly doubt this since this is Biowares game and I trust that they actually described something properly that they created.

If this is in fact your argument  that Bioware did indeed wrongfully describe there own specialization for the Mage class. If you then somehow convince Bioware that they are indeed wrong about there own specialization and get them to change it (To whatever you think it should be I'm not sure anymore) I will stand corrected.

However until that day my argument will hold far more weight than yours since I have the in game description and scenarios it self backing me, where as you only have your theoretical opinions and assumptions backing yours.

Checkmate.

Modifié par Jacks-Up, 09 décembre 2009 - 08:23 .

[DeathWyrmNexus]

The Angry One wrote...

Blood magic isn't evil or solely taught by demons. It's taught to YOU by a demon, sure. But only because Jowan's too much of a wet blanket to teach you.
Thankfully the universal specialization unlocks allow me to go ahead as a blood mage with such a deal never happening, I'll just pretend I secrety learned it in the circle (you know, like all those other mages did) thank you very much.

Sure most of the blood mages you see in game are hostile, but then when you have a monolithic church entity treating them like scum, it's basically an inevitable consequence.

I had a fun time playing Daemon the nicest Maleficar... Albeit a bit of a hypocrite with how many blood mages he kills. XD

I think this thread needs to take Cullen's advice. "You can't tell a maleficar on sight!"

They would have to see you use Blood Magic and if they bothered with having the AI react to every spell you cast as a dialogue option... Ugh, the coding and voice acting requirements as well as companion reqs...

Ugh... *head asplodes*

[Alex Savchovsky]

You don't seem to even try to understand what I am talking about.

You take a piece of in-game knowledge that was designed and shaped to be in-game, to match the rest of the game. And never question it. This is silly. Let me give you an example:



Let say you need to make a game about Christopher Columbus. You will absolutely NEED to state on every second sentence that the Earth is flat and heading west to reach the East is madness which can never succeed. Because the world WAS like that. The world thought that the Earth was flat.



So let's say you design a dark fantasy world, in which a particular school of magic is viewed as evil. You will absolutely need to state many times that it's evil. Because this world is like that, views it that way. And the player needs to know what the world of his character is. Note that you will need exactly the same descriptions, no matter if you designed the world so that:

a) blood magic as VIEWED as evil

or

blood magic IS evil

For the sole reason that the you only need to know for the world as much as your character does, so it is easier to believe in it.

So it's pretty much clear, that you can't rely on that descriptions to resolve the problem whether a) or is true - since either would produce the same description.

[SSH83]

Must have name wrote...

The only daft thing about being a blood Mage is Wynne.

For example, during my first playthrough as a Blood Mage / Arcane Warrior, at one point where you're offered something involving Blood Magic:

Wynne: "This is Blood Magic! Surely you would not stoop to such a thing."
PC: "Umm, Wynne, I don't know if you've noticed, but i've been using Blood Magic since around level 10.
Wynne: "Wait... what?!?"
PC: "Yeah, you know the bit in combat where those guys chests stick out? Blood Magic."
Wynne: "That's easily missable..."
PC: "The glowing red blood aura around me when I run low on mana yet keep casting spells. Blood Magic.
Wynne: "Well... I have more important things to do than look at you in combat."
PC: "The sudden losses of health you get peroidically. That's me using your lifeforce."
Wynne: "What?!? I thought that was that spirit."
PC: "Infact Wynne, I don't know if you've noticed, but your second specialisation is Blood Mage... you yourself know Blood Magic.
Wynne: "Well... that certainly changes things."

brilliant

[Jacks-Up]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

You don't seem to even try to understand what I am talking about.

I don't think you you understand what your talking about

Alex Savchovsky wrote...
You take a piece of in-game knowledge that was designed and shaped to be in-game, to match the rest of the game. And never question it. This is silly. Let me give you an example:

I take it to match what the description says and evidence in game and no I'm not questioning the description because I trust Bioware knows what they are doing. If you need to question "The in game Description" Than you assume that Bioware made some sort of mistake and if this is so they didn't do a very good job.

As to your example it is irrelevant simply because the earth being round is not a Dark energy force that come from Demons & corrupts it's user.

Also a Dark energy force that come from Demons & corrupts it's user sounds pretty evil to me however by some slim chance that it is not the reliance / submission to the Dark Lure of blood magic is in most basic terms an admission of evil.

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

So it's pretty much clear, that you can't rely on that descriptions to resolve the problem whether a) or is true - since either would produce the same description.

You can't just dismiss descriptions because you don't agree with them stop being absurd. You either think that they are right or that they are wrong, if you think the description in the game is wrong then take it up with Bioware not with me.

Modifié par Jacks-Up, 09 décembre 2009 - 09:25 .

[Curlain]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Let say you need to make a game about Christopher Columbus. You will absolutely NEED to state on every second sentence that the Earth is flat and heading west to reach the East is madness which can never succeed. Because the world WAS like that. The world thought that the Earth was flat.

.

Actually it is kinda an urban myth that people of Columbus time thought the Earth was flat, they didn't.  The Earth had been demostrated to be spherical by Eratosthenes (276-194 BCE), he had heard that at Syene the Sun was directly overhead during the summer solstice whereas in Alexandria is still cast a shadow.  Using different angles the shadows made as the basis of his trigonometric caluclations he estimated a circumference of around 250,000 stades.  This figure turns out from modern measurement to have been in error by around only 5 to 10% (given the exact length of a stade is not fully know).

Even before this Greek philiosphers had speculated the Earth was round due to the curviature of the horizon obverved at sea, and Plato taught the Earth was a sphere, and Aristole concured, due to there being stars observed Egypt and Cyprus which could not be seen in northern skys which could only be explained by the Earth as a sphere.

These views survived (just like Plato's and Aristole's teachings) into the medieval period, it is why Christ's figure is often depicted with a orb in his hand in medieval artwork, it was intended to initially represent his rule of the Earth (which was seen as round).

So in Columbus's time there was no question the Earth was round, it was on that very basis the journey was made, as if the Earth was round it was resonable to think they could find a route to China more easily that way, and this take control of the spice route.  The reason the flat Earth thing comes up is due to it being included in a 19th novel about Columbus, and has since then become so often repeated it's seen as fact.

Sorry, it's not really relevent to your point, which was about realistic game world, but it I hate seeing this falacy still being repeated as fact, appologises

[Gecon]

Blood Magic is a nice tool, especially since investing points into Con and using BM is a lot more efficient than investing points into Wil.

Also you can run now a large number of sustainables since your normal MP bar is no longer needed.

Only drawback of course: you're working on your lifebar, so if you're at zero, you're simply dead.

[erichough]

Jacks-Up wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

You don't seem to even try to understand what I am talking about.

I don't think you you understand what your talking about

Alex Savchovsky wrote...
You take a piece of in-game knowledge that was designed and shaped to be in-game, to match the rest of the game. And never question it. This is silly. Let me give you an example:

I take it to match what the description says and evidence in game and no I'm not questioning the description because I trust Bioware knows what they are doing. If you need to question "The in game Description" Than you assume that Bioware made some sort of mistake and if this is so they didn't do a very good job.

As to your example it is irrelevant simply because the earth being round is not a Dark energy force that come from Demons & corrupts it's user.

Also a Dark energy force that come from Demons & corrupts it's user sounds pretty evil to me however by some slim chance that it is not the reliance / submission to the Dark Lure of blood magic is in most basic terms an admission of evil.

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

So it's pretty much clear, that you can't rely on that descriptions to resolve the problem whether a) or is true - since either would produce the same description.

You can't just dismiss descriptions because you don't agree with them stop being absurd. You either think that they are right or that they are wrong, if you think the description in the game is wrong then take it up with Bioware not with me.

I think the problem here is that Alex is trying to differentiate between two types of information provided in game:

1) Factual information about how the game works
2) In game lore

Journal entries of the first type obviously need to be true and accurate - things like info on how the combat works, how classes, skills and abilities work, etc. The second type of information may or may not be true in the scientifically provable sense because in game lore can consist of both factual information (roses are red) and local beliefs (castle horrifica is HAUNTED).  The local beliefs may be true, in that everyone believes in them, but factually incorrect.

So real question here: Is blood magic inherently evil. The chantry says that it is - that using blood magic is evil and leads to becoming an abomination. However, the chantry was founded by a woman who opposed the Tevinter empire, which was founded on blood magic and could have simply opposed it because it was the source of her political opponents power.

It seems to me that there are a few 'evil' things generally associated with blood magic:

1) Blood magic can be used to control people minds
2) Blood magic users can sacrifice others for power
3) Blood magic is learned from demon's
4) Blood magic users tend to be posessed by demons and become abominations


I would say the first two don't do anything to 'prove' that blood magic is inherently evil as they are more along the lines of abuse of power - the same arguement could be used to claim that a weapon is evil because you can use it to commit murder.

That leaves the last two points - that blood magic is evil because you have to learn it from a demon and it leads to you becoming an abomination. It seems to me that this would only be true if its the act of using blood magic itself that opens you up to being possessed by a demon and NOT the fact that you are dealing with a demon in the first place. In other words, if you could learn blood magic from books or other non-demonic sources and use it safely without being turned into an abomination then it would not be inherently evil - however if using blood magic ALWAYS resulted in a mage eventually becoming an abomination then I would agree that it probably is inherently evil.

The in game lore doesn't actually answer this question. For example - the mage in the soldier's peak DLC was definitely practicing blood magic and was not a nice guy at all - but despite being surrounded by demons in a area where the boundaries between the real world and the fade where weakened he was clearly NOT an abomination, just a man with very low morals. As a counter example we have both Jowan, who practiced blood magic but so far has not been turned into an abomination and Connor, who was clearly possessed by a demon but probably didn't practice blood magic. So we have at least two examples of blood mages who haven't become abominations and one of an abomination that probably didn't become that way through blood magic. (Hard to say there - Jowan probably didn't teach connor blood magic but we have no proof either way).

[Dsentinel]

I have to agree with the OP. I made Wynne a blood mage, and I don't think she's noticed yet.

[Jacks-Up]

erichough wrote...



That leaves the last two points - that blood magic is evil because you have to learn it from a demon and it leads to you becoming an abomination. It seems to me that this would only be true if its the act of using blood magic itself that opens you up to being possessed by a demon and NOT the fact that you are dealing with a demon in the first place. In other words, if you could learn blood magic from books or other non-demonic sources and use it safely without being turned into an abomination then it would not be inherently evil - however if using blood magic ALWAYS resulted in a mage eventually becoming an abomination then I would agree that it probably is inherently evil.

The in game lore doesn't actually answer this question. For example - the mage in the soldier's peak DLC was definitely practicing blood magic and was not a nice guy at all - but despite being surrounded by demons in a area where the boundaries between the real world and the fade where weakened he was clearly NOT an abomination, just a man with very low morals. As a counter example we have both Jowan, who practiced blood magic but so far has not been turned into an abomination and Connor, who was clearly possessed by a demon but probably didn't practice blood magic. So we have at least two examples of blood mages who haven't become abominations and one of an abomination that probably didn't become that way through blood magic. (Hard to say there - Jowan probably didn't teach connor blood magic but we have no proof either way).

I don't recall it saying anywhere that you will become an abomination if you use blood magic they simply say it corrupts you. As to the mage in Wardens Keep he was defiantly evil if you took the time to read his notes and ask enough questions to find out what he did.

I'd also like to know how he got out of that 30 year calling thing him being a Warden and like 200 years old.


As for Jowan remember he was a novice blood mage can't really go by what he did although him using blood magic never ended very well for him. High Level Blood Magic is meant to control and dominate Jowan never got that far.