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[Jacks-Up]

The Angry One wrote...

Jacks-Up wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Prove that blood magic was created solely for the purpose of evil.

It comes from demons.

All magic comes from the Old Gods.
Explain why the Old Gods are that much more virtuous than demons.

Would you like me to explain why you should brush your teeth in the morning as well?

If you want to keep you delusion that blood magic is good so be it I'm getting tired of pointing out the obvious to you. 

If the mere fact the game stresses just how evil it is don't persuade you nothing will. I'm willing to bet if a bioware writer came on and told you it was evil you would find some excuse and say "Well I'm using it for good so I'm not evil"  Some people just can't except the truth even tho it's staring them right in the face.

[The Angry One]

Original182 wrote...

Actually in the court of law, he is an important witness, because he saw with his own eyes how blood magic works. It was evil enough for him that he would never take it even if it was on a platter. He saw the reality of blood magic, not dogma.
The court won't reject a witness just because you don't approve.

No, but a lawyer would tear him apart. Niall was panicked, addled and near-death. His testemony wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on.

Proof please. What I think is irrelevant. Give me facts. Codex entries, screenshots. Give me something solid from the game.
I think YOU are the one who will get thrown out of court with no proof.

Wait, what? You need proof that the Chantry exterminated the Dales? I'm listing well known facts, you don't get to ignore the evidence simply because it isn't presented to you with pretty pictures.
If you honestly don't know aboutt the Dales or the Chantry's obvious use of it's fear-based religion to spread it's influence (you know, like any organised religion does) then you haven't played the game and there's no use arguing with you.

[Original182]

The Angry One wrote...
Alright enough of this. Niall was in no fit state to judge anything.
If we were to go by the opinions of the recent victims of the attack on the tower who were panicked, exhausted and afraid.. then Cullen is right. The mages can't be saved. Kill them all. It's the only way to be sure.

Don't argue with this now, Cullen saw everything first hand. He must be right and not biased or compromised in any way.

Niall was fit enough to help you, think clearly to tell you about the Littany. He could talk to you properly about the Fade, mouse, Sloth Demon, etc. He was the one in control of his mental faculties.
Cullen was the one who seemed mentally unstable and hysterical, and cannot be a reliable witness.

Your objection is overruled. Blood magic is clearly evil. Case closed.

[Monkinsane]

ROFL!

Must have name wrote...

The only daft thing about being a blood Mage is Wynne.

For example, during my first playthrough as a Blood Mage / Arcane Warrior, at one point where you're offered something involving Blood Magic:

Wynne: "This is Blood Magic! Surely you would not stoop to such a thing."
PC: "Umm, Wynne, I don't know if you've noticed, but i've been using Blood Magic since around level 10.
Wynne: "Wait... what?!?"
PC: "Yeah, you know the bit in combat where those guys chests stick out? Blood Magic."
Wynne: "That's easily missable..."
PC: "The glowing red blood aura around me when I run low on mana yet keep casting spells. Blood Magic.
Wynne: "Well... I have more important things to do than look at you in combat."
PC: "The sudden losses of health you get peroidically. That's me using your lifeforce."
Wynne: "What?!? I thought that was that spirit."
PC: "Infact Wynne, I don't know if you've noticed, but your second specialisation is Blood Mage... you yourself know Blood Magic.
Wynne: "Well... that certainly changes things."

[The Angry One]

Jacks-Up wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Jacks-Up wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Prove that blood magic was created solely for the purpose of evil.

It comes from demons.

All magic comes from the Old Gods.
Explain why the Old Gods are that much more virtuous than demons.

Would you like me to explain why you should brush your teeth in the morning as well?

If you want to keep you delusion that blood magic is good so be it I'm getting tired of pointing out the obvious to you. 

If the mere fact the game stresses just how evil it is don't persuade you nothing will. I'm willing to bet if a bioware writer came on and told you it was evil you would find some excuse and say "Well I'm using it for good so I'm not evil"  Some people just can't except the truth even tho it's staring them right in the face.

Don't dodge the point with meaningless tangents.
Explain why the Old Gods are so much better than demons, or shut up.

[The Angry One]

Original182 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Alright enough of this. Niall was in no fit state to judge anything.
If we were to go by the opinions of the recent victims of the attack on the tower who were panicked, exhausted and afraid.. then Cullen is right. The mages can't be saved. Kill them all. It's the only way to be sure.

Don't argue with this now, Cullen saw everything first hand. He must be right and not biased or compromised in any way.

Niall was fit enough to help you, think clearly to tell you about the Littany. He could talk to you properly about the Fade, mouse, Sloth Demon, etc. He was the one in control of his mental faculties.
Cullen was the one who seemed mentally unstable and hysterical, and cannot be a reliable witness.

Your objection is overruled. Blood magic is clearly evil. Case closed.

Niall helps you to an extent. He also repeatedly says there's no hope, and everybody's going to die. There's no escape. Woe is me.
Your deliberate ignorance of this fact astounds me, but please continue trolling, it's not my place to stop you from embarassing yourself.

[Monkinsane]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Original182 wrote...

First-hand testimonies of mages, the people who know best about magic, believe that blood magic is no good.

Won't you understand that a power can't be good or evil by itself? It does not have intent, behavior or moral. How would it be good or evil?

I truly believe that any power (Blood Magic or No) is in itself not evil. How you choose to use the power given to you determines whethter YOU are good or evil. Although it is true that Blood Magic is more commonly used for evil deeds, so could normal magic.

I see no problem with using it on vile & disgusting Darkspawn.


But then again - I don't see myself / My character as purely good - but a combination of good and evil. I love my darker side, as well as the good.

Modifié par Monkinsane, 03 décembre 2009 - 02:41 .

[mrao]

Jacks-Up wrote...

 I'm willing to bet if a bioware writer

Considering a PC can be a blood mage and still make every good decision in the game and playthrough with minimal innocent casualties, I highly doubt a bioware writer would say that.

Theres no evidence of some inner voice telling a blood mage to control another person, they choose to do that. What  Avernus did was reprehensible, but his mind is his own. If anything saying "blood magic made him do it" is absolving him because it implies that he has no free will.

Wynne described Uldred as being power hungry and self serving even when he was growing up in the circle. There's no evidence that using blood magic automatically turns someone into a mustache twirling villain. If that were true, Jowan would not care about saving connor. And you can persuade Avernus to
repent for his crimes.  Sophia Dryden is not a mage at all and she is the one who ordered Avernus to summon the demons.



I agree that there isn't enough companion interaction with regards to that specialization, I should at least have to pass a persuade check with Wynne or Alistair, if they see me using blood magic. I honestly expected random encounters with hostile templars.

Modifié par mrao, 03 décembre 2009 - 02:43 .

[mrao]

Edit: double post

Modifié par mrao, 03 décembre 2009 - 02:42 .

[Original182]

The Angry One wrote...
No, but a lawyer would tear him apart. Niall was panicked, addled and near-death. His testemony wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on.

As stated in my previous post, Niall was in control of his mental faculties to help you in the Fade, talk to you about obstacles, Sloth Demon, etc. He was mentally stable enough to tell you to about the Littany, and even remind you once you're about to leave the Fade.
Cullen was the mentally unstable and hysterical one.

Proof please. What I think is irrelevant. Give me facts. Codex entries, screenshots. Give me something solid from the game.
I think YOU are the one who will get thrown out of court with no proof.

Wait, what? You need proof that the Chantry exterminated the Dales? I'm listing well known facts, you don't get to ignore the evidence simply because it isn't presented to you with pretty pictures.
If you honestly don't know aboutt the Dales or the Chantry's obvious use of it's fear-based religion to spread it's influence (you know, like any organised religion does) then you haven't played the game and there's no use arguing with you.

Yes, how do you know it happened? It should be easy then to prove if they are well know facts. Until you can prove it, it cannot be considered fact. All I'm hearing from you is that it's fact because you say so. And if anyone disagrees with you, clearly they are wrong. Um, right, you SURE will be convincing in the court of law.
I can also say that all the bad things done by the Chantry in the past are all completely fabricated by mages in order to undermine the Chantry to gain more freedom. This is what happens when you enter hypothetical waters.

So using my witnesses, who are experts in magic, blood magic is evil.

Modifié par Original182, 03 décembre 2009 - 02:45 .

[Jacks-Up]

The Angry One wrote...



Don't dodge the point with meaningless tangents.
Explain why the Old Gods are so much better than demons, or shut up.

Well for starters they weren't tainted at the time but it really doesn't matter because if you can't see why something that comes from demons is evil than I suggest you bang your head on your desk until something kicks lose.    Like I said you're welcome to just not read my thread because it's not like you haven't failed to answer questions of why it's not evil.

[Original182]

The Angry One wrote...

Original182 wrote...
Niall was fit enough to help you, think clearly to tell you about the Littany. He could talk to you properly about the Fade, mouse, Sloth Demon, etc. He was the one in control of his mental faculties.
Cullen was the one who seemed mentally unstable and hysterical, and cannot be a reliable witness.

Your objection is overruled. Blood magic is clearly evil. Case closed.

Niall helps you to an extent. He also repeatedly says there's no hope, and everybody's going to die. There's no escape. Woe is me.
Your deliberate ignorance of this fact astounds me, but please continue trolling, it's not my place to stop you from embarassing yourself.

Takes one to know one. Well you seem to have trolled the thread pretty well yourself.

[The Angry One]

Original182 wrote...

As stated in my previous post, Niall was in control of his mental faculties to help you in the Fade, talk to you about obstacles, Sloth Demon, etc. He was mentally stable enough to tell you to about the Littany, and even remind you once you're about to leave the Fade.
Cullen was the mentally unstable and hysterical one.

He was also depressed beyond all hope and very, very afraid. Why do you continue to ignore this?
Niall and Cullen were compromised in different ways, but they were in fact compromised.

Yes, how do you know it happened? It should be easy then to prove if they are well know facts. Until you can prove it, it cannot be considered fact. All I'm hearing from you is that it's fact because you say so. And if anyone disagrees with you, clearly they are wrong. Um, right, you SURE will be convincing in the court of law.
I can also say that all the bad things done by the Chantry in the past are all completely fabricated by mages in order to undermine the Chantry to gain more freedom. This is what happens when you enter hypothetical waters.

So using my witnesses, who are experts in magic, blood magic is evil.

The freaking game says it happened. Multiple sources of history state the Chantry exterminated the Dales.
You're just arguing this for the sake of arguing, aren't you?

[The Angry One]

Jacks-Up wrote...

The Angry One wrote...



Don't dodge the point with meaningless tangents.
Explain why the Old Gods are so much better than demons, or shut up.

Well for starters they weren't tainted at the time but it really doesn't matter because if you can't see why something that comes from demons is evil than I suggest you bang your head on your desk until something kicks lose.    Like I said you're welcome to just not read my thread because it's not like you haven't failed to answer questions of why it's not evil.

The taint is irrelevant.
Your contention is that all demons are iredeemably evil.. why? Because they lie, cheat, and seek to use people?
This makes them that much better than the Old Gods who were said to... lie, cheat, use people and rule over them?

Even if most of it is untrue, nothing indicates that the Old Gods were particularily nice.
So once again, explain to me why magic in general isn't evil, but blood magic is?

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 décembre 2009 - 02:47 .

[Original182]

The Angry One wrote...

Yes, how do you know it happened? It should be easy then to prove if they are well know facts. Until you can prove it, it cannot be considered fact. All I'm hearing from you is that it's fact because you say so. And if anyone disagrees with you, clearly they are wrong. Um, right, you SURE will be convincing in the court of law.
I can also say that all the bad things done by the Chantry in the past are all completely fabricated by mages in order to undermine the Chantry to gain more freedom. This is what happens when you enter hypothetical waters.

So using my witnesses, who are experts in magic, blood magic is evil.

The freaking game says it happened. Multiple sources of history state the Chantry exterminated the Dales.

How do you know those sources aren't fabricated? If Andraste says there is a Maker, does that make it true?
If it is possible for the Chantry to lie to people, which you seem to be convinced, wouldn't it be possible for other historians to lie about the Chantry as well?

You're just arguing this for the sake of arguing, aren't you?

Heh, aren't you as well? 

[The Angry One]

Original182 wrote...

How do you know those sources aren't fabricated? If Andraste says there is a Maker, does that make it true?
If it is possible for the Chantry to lie to people, which you seem to be convinced, wouldn't it be possible for other historians to lie about the Chantry as well?

The Chantry are the only ones who claim there is a Maker.
If the Dalish were the only ones who claimed that the Chantry destroyed the Dales, you might have a point. But it is mentioned multiple times as historical fact.

[ExistsAlready]

Blood Magic isn't evil. It has evil uses, it has evil users and people take exception to the perversion of the mind and "natural" magic but that doesn't make it "evil".



Who do you blame for a murder? The sword or the swordsman? Blood Magic is used by power hungry, manipulative mages. Using Blood Magic doesn't make you into a power hungry, manipulative mage.

[Original182]

ExistsAlready wrote...

Blood Magic isn't evil. It has evil uses, it has evil users and people take exception to the perversion of the mind and "natural" magic but that doesn't make it "evil".

Who do you blame for a murder? The sword or the swordsman? Blood Magic is used by power hungry, manipulative mages. Using Blood Magic doesn't make you into a power hungry, manipulative mage.

Actually it could be a gateway to turn you into one. Maybe that is why it is considered evil, because it corrupts people.

[Jacks-Up]

ExistsAlready wrote...

Blood Magic isn't evil. It has evil uses, it has evil users and people take exception to the perversion of the mind and "natural" magic but that doesn't make it "evil".

Who do you blame for a murder? The sword or the swordsman? Blood Magic is used by power hungry, manipulative mages. Using Blood Magic doesn't make you into a power hungry, manipulative mage.

This has already been discussed the fact that Blood magics only purpose is evil makes it so.

[ExistsAlready]

Power corrupts. Loghain didn't need blood magic to let his delusions cloud his judgement and let him abuse his power.



Blood magic could probably be a lot more managable if the Chantry wasn't so strict about it. But because it can mind control people, they've gone right off the deep end and come down so hard on mages about it they're practically breeding resentful, power hungry psychopaths themselves. The whole incident in the Circle Tower started because Uldred and his followers wanted to be free of the Templars.

[Original182]

Enchanter Josephus, who has done research on the capabilities of blood magic, agrees that blood magic is dangerous and should be stamped out. He says this not because "the Chantry told him so", but through proper research of facts.

The ancient Tevinters did not originally consider blood magic a
school of its own. Rather, they saw it as a means to achieve greater
power in any school of magic. The name, of course, refers to the fact
that magic of this type uses life, specifically in the form of blood,
instead of mana. It was common practice, at one time, for a magister to
keep a number of slaves on hand so that, should he undertake the
working of a spell that was physically beyond his abilities, he could
use the blood of his slaves to bolster the casting.

Over time, however, the Imperium discovered types of spells that
could only be worked by blood. Although lyrium will allow a mage to
send his conscious mind into the Fade, blood would allow him to find
the sleeping minds of others, view their dreams, and even influence or
dominate their thoughts. Just as treacherous, blood magic allows the
Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through
it into our world.

The rise of the Chant of Light and the subsequent fall of the old
Imperium has led to blood magic being all but stamped out—as it should
be, for it poses nearly as great a danger to those who would practice
it as to the world at large.


http://dragonage.wik...orbidden_School

Modifié par Original182, 03 décembre 2009 - 03:15 .

[Galad22]

You have to make a deal with a demon to get blood magic, how can it possible get any eviler than that, simply unlocking it and reloading is just cheating and it is shame bioware went to that route.

Also every reasonable people hates and reviles blood magic in thedas, even most mages who aren't blood mages agree that it is evil.

Also to the OP I agree that there should be repercussions to using blood magic, you should loose wynne to the very least.

[Mavkiel]

And lightning and ice and spirit and mana clash tree only exists to kill and harm things. Imo, blood magic is not necessary evil. It is just very powerful offensive magic that is very easily abused and hard to defend against. The chantry is against blood magic because of religious interpretation, magic not being meant to rule over man but serve. Which, is a tad of a stretch for that comment. She could simply have been making statements against the system she was fighting against, primarily mages acting as rulers.

[Original182]

Mavkiel wrote...

And lightning and ice and spirit and mana clash tree only exists to kill and harm things. Imo, blood magic is not necessary evil. It is just very powerful offensive magic that is very easily abused and hard to defend against. The chantry is against blood magic because of religious interpretation, magic not being meant to rule over man but serve. Which, is a tad of a stretch for that comment. She could simply have been making statements against the system she was fighting against, primarily mages acting as rulers.

Blood magic being dangerous isn't Chantry propaganda, as many would have you believe.
A mage who researches into blood magic uses his findings to prove why blood magic is dangerous.

http://dragonage.wik...orbidden_School

I'm sure I can dig up more references if I can. It's just too much info to assimilate, but I remember bits here and there.

Modifié par Original182, 03 décembre 2009 - 03:21 .

[Jacks-Up]

Mavkiel wrote...

And lightning and ice and spirit and mana clash tree only exists to kill and harm things. Imo, blood magic is not necessary evil. It is just very powerful offensive magic that is very easily abused and hard to defend against. The chantry is against blood magic because of religious interpretation, magic not being meant to rule over man but serve. Which, is a tad of a stretch for that comment. She could simply have been making statements against the system she was fighting against, primarily mages acting as rulers.

Except it's not just the Chantry pretty much everyone who doesn't pratice it is against it.

Also lightning and ice and spirit damage is to Sword /Axe/Gun as Blood magic is to a vile with the Ebola virus.

there are many uses you can have for an Axe but a vile with the Ebola virus your options are limited and only a truly evil person would use it.