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Bioware how can you not understand what we want?


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#351
hoorayforicecream

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The constraints have always been there, and I'm not sure it's possible to address it entirely.

Constraints aren't the problem.  It doesn't matter here that Hawke can only do a select few things.  What matters is that he does them without the player's input.


False. The constraints are a significant problem for some people. Also, it only sometimes matters what Hawke does without the player's input. Whether it is a problem a matter of personal preference and should be addressed on a case-by-case basis.

#352
Sylvius the Mad

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

How different might it be?

There's no way to know unless we go through the whole process and see wher eit leads.

Typically, when I create a character concept, I fill it in as much as necessary to make sense for that point in the game. I don't look at a character as an unassailable whole. Major parts of the character's motivation can still remain the same even if a choice I made along the way needs a retcon. Unless you're talking about fundamental core issues to a character, it shouldn't be that difficult. If you are, then why not do what you did in DAO under a similar situation? Stop the game, start a new Hawke, and make that Hawke one who would have a different reaction to that critical path decision.

Even if they;'re not unassailable core issues, they might have had an impact at any previous point during the game.  Would Hawke have behaved differently at any previous point had you had this new character design from the start?  How do you know?

For example, I hypothetically created a dwarf-hating Hawke. She hates dwarfs with a passion, thinks they're dirty, evil thieves all the time. And then she's forced to deal with Varric, who is a dwarf, and embodies everything that she hates in a dwarf. One Hawke would be unable to deal with him. She'd never take help from a dirty, smelly dwarf. She'd rather die than undertake quests for a dwarf (still a non-spoiler forum). Her story ends here.

But what if she cared for her family more? She loves her family and realizes that she can't go on the day-to-day in such poverty. She can work her way up, but what of her mother? She grudgingly accepts, and bites back her cynicism in dealing with dwarfs because she knows she needs to do it for her family. Maybe she snaps at him (direct/aggressive) whenever she has to deal with him. But then over the course of the story, he grows on her. He's still there when she needs him, even if she sends him on all the dirtiest tasks to find traps and such. Eventually, she can come around and not hate the dwarf so much. Maybe he earns her respect through years of grudging work together. Other dwarfs still set her teeth on edge, but this one is not as bad as she thought originally. Not that she'd ever admit it aloud...

In both situations, Hawke is more-or-less cut from the same cloth, with the same background. In the former, her hatred for dwarfs overpowers her loyalty to her family. In the second, it's the opposite. Not a lot of changes being made at the time of the choice, but it works with the story presented. It's just another constraint you have to work with.

It is typically the unassailable core features that cause me problems.  I tend to design characters around less obviously relevant characteristics.  I played a Warden whose every opinion stemmed from a passionate belief in individual property rights.  He saved Redcliffe because people's property was being threatened.  He helped the greedy merchant in Lothering because he'd acquired those goods fairly.  He didn't help people because he cared about people.  He helped people because he cared about property.  But in DA2, that character was forever uttering lines that espoused views he wouldn't espouse, because the paraphrases were written assuming that some aspect of the lines other than how they address property issues was the relevant bit.  So selecting dialogue would always be nothing more than guesswork.

I played another Warden who was shy and would always defer to others to make decisions.  DAO let him waffle and delay, and then a companion would make a suggestion and he could follow along.  But what of DA2?  Hawke cannot deflect or waffle, because there's no way to tell from the paraphrases whether he'll make an assertion rather than ask a question.

As long as the characteristic that you care about isn't one BioWare foresaw, then the paraphrases are consistenly useless.

#353
Realmzmaster

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Adanu wrote...

I'm almost totally sure Sylvius is just trolling everyone here at this point.

Mods, you should lock this. The OP was just another opinionated forumite who wanted tp express and now it's just being trolled.


Sylvius The Mad does not troll. He is opinonated (but then so am I). He will express what is on his mind about a given topic. I do not agree with everything he writes, but he states his opinion in a logical way. 

DAO was the compromise between old school computer role playing games and the more cinematic approach.

The old school computer role playing games gave far more control over the PC and the party. In fact most old school computer role playing games allowed for creation of the entire party.

Bioware games tend to be different in that companions are pick up along the way which also harkens back to some of the games in the Ultima series. BG1 and BG2 had you pick up companions like DAO and DA2, but BG1 and BG2 were firmly rooted in the D & D system. Neverwinter Nights also allowed for character creation but you had one other companion a henchman that your character could hire, but you had no little control over them.
DAO was one of first Bioware games to add the cinematics and cutscenes.

Player agency is key for Sylvius. The PC should do nothing without the gamers input. The player should also have full control over the party. He is not a troll.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 27 mars 2012 - 11:36 .


#354
the_one_54321

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Just because there's only one option available doesn't mean you have to choose it.

Actually, sometimes the game chooses for you, if you don't make a choice. I remember that this was specifically explained about dialog in DA:O.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 27 mars 2012 - 11:41 .


#355
adlocutio

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...
It is typically the unassailable core features that cause me problems.  I tend to design characters around less obviously relevant characteristics.  I played a Warden whose every opinion stemmed from a passionate belief in individual property rights.  He saved Redcliffe because people's property was being threatened.  He helped the greedy merchant in Lothering because he'd acquired those goods fairly.  He didn't help people because he cared about people.  He helped people because he cared about property.  But in DA2, that character was forever uttering lines that espoused views he wouldn't espouse, because the paraphrases were written assuming that some aspect of the lines other than how they address property issues was the relevant bit.  So selecting dialogue would always be nothing more than guesswork.

I played another Warden who was shy and would always defer to others to make decisions.  DAO let him waffle and delay, and then a companion would make a suggestion and he could follow along.  But what of DA2?  Hawke cannot deflect or waffle, because there's no way to tell from the paraphrases whether he'll make an assertion rather than ask a question.

These examples are fascinating.  More would be welcome.

#356
hoorayforicecream

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Even if they;'re not unassailable core issues, they might have had an impact at any previous point during the game.  Would Hawke have behaved differently at any previous point had you had this new character design from the start?  How do you know?


It's my Hawke. I know.

As long as the characteristic that you care about isn't one BioWare foresaw, then the paraphrases are consistenly useless.


You've been over this before. Bioware's position hasn't changed. The ability to play Who's Line with the protagonist of their game is something they are willing to sacrifice.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 28 mars 2012 - 12:14 .


#357
Chromie

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hoorayforicecream wrote...
It's my Hawke. I know.


No it's Bioware's Hawke you gave them a name, a face but ultimately it's a set protagonist.

#358
DBZMagus

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David Gaider wrote...

1) DA2 DLC sold quite well, thank you. I'm not at liberty to give out specifics, but it sold well enough that discontinuing work on it was a difficult choice-- and one made so that we could spend the kind of effort on the next big project that we thought it deserved. If someone wishes to spin it to suit their own agenda, so be it. I can't convince you otherwise, after all.


You're right, you can't convince me. That makes absolutely no sense. You don't cancel a product before completion if it is meeting its goals and bringing in money. Sequels are not made with the goal of making a fraction of what the predecessor made, they are expected to exceed or at least meet previous sales. DA2 was a failure compared to Origins, both in terms of total revenue and in terms of the damage it did to Bioware's professional reputation. So when you tell me the DLC for a game so many people still revile was a big seller but you stopped making it anyway, I simply don't believe you and consider that a lie.

#359
Restraint

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DBZMagus wrote...

You're right, you can't convince me. That makes absolutely no sense. You don't cancel a product before completion if it is meeting its goals and bringing in money. Sequels are not made with the goal of making a fraction of what the predecessor made, they are expected to exceed or at least meet previous sales. DA2 was a failure compared to Origins, both in terms of total revenue and in terms of the damage it did to Bioware's professional reputation. So when you tell me the DLC for a game so many people still revile was a big seller but you stopped making it anyway, I simply don't believe you and consider that a lie.


Don't assume this is a unique occurence just because this time they chose to give us a glimpse of what goes on behind the scenes. They were supposedly planning for two years of DA:O dlc including multiple expansions but all they ended up doing was less than half of that, does that mean Origins was a failure? 

Also it's kind of douchey to call the guy who writes games you ostensibly enjoy a liar.

#360
Morroian

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Skelter192 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
It's my Hawke. I know.


No it's Bioware's Hawke you gave them a name, a face but ultimately it's a set protagonist.


Not IMHO I've managed to create 5 distinctly diffferent Hawkes. 

#361
Anyroad2

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Eh. I dont know OP.
I like the Dragon Age games. I'd be disappointed if Bioware changed DA drastically, or dropped it completely.

#362
seraphymon

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DBZMagus wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

1) DA2 DLC sold quite well, thank you. I'm not at liberty to give out specifics, but it sold well enough that discontinuing work on it was a difficult choice-- and one made so that we could spend the kind of effort on the next big project that we thought it deserved. If someone wishes to spin it to suit their own agenda, so be it. I can't convince you otherwise, after all.


You're right, you can't convince me. That makes absolutely no sense. You don't cancel a product before completion if it is meeting its goals and bringing in money. Sequels are not made with the goal of making a fraction of what the predecessor made, they are expected to exceed or at least meet previous sales. DA2 was a failure compared to Origins, both in terms of total revenue and in terms of the damage it did to Bioware's professional reputation. So when you tell me the DLC for a game so many people still revile was a big seller but you stopped making it anyway, I simply don't believe you and consider that a lie.


I do wish they would stop syaing such empty words with things that would come out for games, but then the plugs are pulled. Same thing happened with DAO. I actually think DA2 made a profit, everything else i consider though hurt them. As for DLC, well i do consider more thought and effort went into them then was put for the dor DAO DLC, aside from awakening of course. but yes when i consider, between an expansion for a game not many or not as many would go for, or for a full new game, better the total effort goes into the next full game, and no more half assed efforts.

#363
Annihilator27

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Im glad to see Dev activity in the DA2 section.

#364
Realmzmaster

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DBZMagus wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

1) DA2 DLC sold quite well, thank you. I'm not at liberty to give out specifics, but it sold well enough that discontinuing work on it was a difficult choice-- and one made so that we could spend the kind of effort on the next big project that we thought it deserved. If someone wishes to spin it to suit their own agenda, so be it. I can't convince you otherwise, after all.


You're right, you can't convince me. That makes absolutely no sense. You don't cancel a product before completion if it is meeting its goals and bringing in money. Sequels are not made with the goal of making a fraction of what the predecessor made, they are expected to exceed or at least meet previous sales. DA2 was a failure compared to Origins, both in terms of total revenue and in terms of the damage it did to Bioware's professional reputation. So when you tell me the DLC for a game so many people still revile was a big seller but you stopped making it anyway, I simply don't believe you and consider that a lie.


So therefore you have more inside knowledge than the man who is inside the company and can see the numbers. Interesting!

#365
Ghidorah14

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"The DLC sold well, but we cancelled it so we could work on the next game."

Isnt this what they did with DAO? Cancelled the supposedly profitable DLC to work on DA2, which ended up being rushed and lackluster anyway?

I cant be the only one bothered by this.

#366
CarlSpackler

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Ghidorah14 wrote...

"The DLC sold well, but we cancelled it so we could work on the next game."

Isnt this what they did with DAO? Cancelled the supposedly profitable DLC to work on DA2, which ended up being rushed and lackluster anyway?

I cant be the only one bothered by this.


I don't have any reason to doubt David's statements.  A company will make all manner of decisions that might not make any sense to their customers but based on internal standards and expectations make complete sense.

For example I've seen very large corporations shut down a profitable division simply because it doesn't meet the expected profit margin.  The company might have a minimum margin of 7% and a division only earning 4%.  Even though the company is still making 4% profit, a dept or div will get axed on the asumption that the resoursces spent generating the 4% could be better spent elsewhere that will get them the 7%.  It obviously doesn't always work out that way and can often lead to disastrous results but it happens.  My own personal bent is don't shut down something that's profitable, but I do see the internal logic that would even if I don't agree.

My guess is something similar goes on with the DA franchise, DLC probably did sell just fine.  But perhaps they had estimates suggesting a new game and its limited DLC would generate far more revenue versus the diminshing return of the current revenue stream.  I don't know just a theory, but I do know that business decisions can often be counter-intuitive.

Modifié par CarlSpackler, 28 mars 2012 - 02:48 .


#367
TEWR

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Ghidorah14 wrote...

"The DLC sold well, but we cancelled it so we could work on the next game."

Isnt this what they did with DAO? Cancelled the supposedly profitable DLC to work on DA2, which ended up being rushed and lackluster anyway?

I cant be the only one bothered by this.


You're not. While I want to not be bothered by it and while I want to be optimistic about everything, the fact of the matter is that I'm incredibly pessimistic about their "next thing" being done well. And I'm highly perturbed by their desire to begin working on it right now, after another repeat of 1 year of DLC.

I'll see what they unveil in the future, and then see whether or not I'm interested. But as of right now, I'm wary of the whole thing.

#368
Maria Caliban

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DBZMagus wrote...

... I simply don't believe you and consider that a lie.

You may find some value in this.

#369
Blood-Lord Thanatos

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I think the Devs know what I want:

More Souls for the Soul Throne! Bring me some Spoiler Kittens to use in Blood-magic rituals, that I might corrupt the souls of the Templars!

or just make another Dragon Age Game, please. With a Sarcastic Pride Demon companion named Hubris.

#370
staindgrey

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DBZMagus wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

1) DA2 DLC sold quite well, thank you. I'm not at liberty to give out specifics, but it sold well enough that discontinuing work on it was a difficult choice-- and one made so that we could spend the kind of effort on the next big project that we thought it deserved. If someone wishes to spin it to suit their own agenda, so be it. I can't convince you otherwise, after all.


You're right, you can't convince me. That makes absolutely no sense. You don't cancel a product before completion if it is meeting its goals and bringing in money. Sequels are not made with the goal of making a fraction of what the predecessor made, they are expected to exceed or at least meet previous sales. DA2 was a failure compared to Origins, both in terms of total revenue and in terms of the damage it did to Bioware's professional reputation. So when you tell me the DLC for a game so many people still revile was a big seller but you stopped making it anyway, I simply don't believe you and consider that a lie.


Stop pretending you know how it all works behind the scenes.

DAO took roughly 3 years to make, and was a new IP built from the ground up. DAII, by comparison, was a rushed 14-16month project using some recycled assets and design work from DAO. DAII didn't sell as much as DAO, true. But the amount that needed to be sold in order to return a profit was also considerably lower. EA/Bioware decided that releasing the product earlier and capitalizing on week one sales instead of a longer-lasting product was wa good idea. I don't agree, but that's what happened.

In the case of reputation, as you mentioned it, you contradicted your own argument. Even if DLC were still making money and meeting goals, why would a company want to continually invest in a product that has hurt their very reputation? Even though some of us would gobble up DAII DLC (myself included), the overall sentiment from media and internet outlets regarding DAII is not positive, meaning that the next DA project (likely DAIII) would need to be a considerably better product.

Think of it this way:

You have an old car. It sucks, but it does its job. Now that you're planning out your budget for the year, you realize you have to make a choice: continue to fix your damaged car to keep it running (since it's still working and all), or start saving up now to afford a better car when it's time to upgrade. Both are legitimate options, but it's not a clear cut, easy decision.

Please, again, stop pretending you know how this whole thing works. I would trust Mr. Gaider's words over some random forumgoer's any day. He's actually, you know, working on the games.

#371
Barry Bathernak

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and im not one bit surprised, and being on the side that disliked d.a.2 this only makes me smile.

Modifié par Barry Bathernak, 28 mars 2012 - 03:42 .


#372
Ghidorah14

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staindgrey wrote...

In the case of reputation, as you mentioned it, you contradicted your own argument. Even if DLC were still making money and meeting goals, why would a company want to continually invest in a product that has hurt their very reputation?


A chance to redeem themselves and reassure their loyal fans that they can still whip a good game when push comes to shove?

Mark of th Assassin was single-handedly the best DA-related DLC I had ever played. Better than Return to Ostagar, better than Darkspawn Chronicles, and WAY better than Warden's Keep. If we got more of what MOTA had going on, I'd be all over it.

#373
staindgrey

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Ghidorah14 wrote...

staindgrey wrote...

In the case of reputation, as you mentioned it, you contradicted your own argument. Even if DLC were still making money and meeting goals, why would a company want to continually invest in a product that has hurt their very reputation?


A chance to redeem themselves and reassure their loyal fans that they can still whip a good game when push comes to shove?

Mark of th Assassin was single-handedly the best DA-related DLC I had ever played. Better than Return to Ostagar, better than Darkspawn Chronicles, and WAY better than Warden's Keep. If we got more of what MOTA had going on, I'd be all over it.


Sir, I wholeheartedly agree. But DLC isn't the way to go to bring back deserting customers-- since it would require them to still own DAII and, well, still care about DAII. Giving more product to DAII fans would essentially be like preaching to the choir at this point.

I hate that we aren't getting Hawke's Act IV. I really, really do. But I totally understand Bioware's motivation at this point, and am coming to grips with it.

...Guess I'll just have to turn to fanfiction.

Modifié par staindgrey, 28 mars 2012 - 04:01 .


#374
the_one_54321

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staindgrey wrote...
I hate that we aren't getting Hawke's Act IV. I really, really do. But I totally understand Bioware's motivation at this point, and am coming to grips with it.

Now you know how those of us who thought DAII would be DA:O-2 feel. As a result of all that, I'm still not getting my hopes up over anything until I see a completed game. I'm sorry that you're not getting more of the game that you enjoy, because I've been there too. But I'm not sorry that they are dropping the game that ruined the game I enjoyed. I would love to be able to pretend that DAII never happened. In fact, mechanically, there was very little of DAII that were steps forward in design. Some character interaction functions. Personally, I think that's it. Everything else that could have been a step forward was marred in some way by its execution.

#375
John Epler

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We were proud of the work we'd done thus far on Exalted March, much as we were proud of the work we'd done on the DA2 DLCs. In an ideal world, we would have liked to release it - however, we decided that the allotment of resources was, at the end of the day, not the allocation of resources we felt made the most sense for the Dragon Age franchise as a whole.

Though everyone working on the Exalted March was passionate and excited about what we had in store, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who, in retrospect, feels that it was the wrong decision to suspend work on it. We all had a lot invested in it, but we feel that the choice was, at the end of the day, the right one. Time will tell whether you all agree - I think you will, but the proof is in the pudding, as they say.

There were a number of reasons, as there is in any major decision, but at the end of the day, the most important one was that it made the most sense for the franchise as a whole. Hopefully we can convince those of you who don't agree over the coming months, but never think that it was an easy decision.