942 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Of course it matters.  Now you're just choosing to have your character be broken.  Why would you do that?

I'm not choosing to. That's kind of the point. If I refuse to finish a conversation, the conversation gets finished for me, whether I want it to or not.

But it doesn't.  The conversation simply ends.  Nothing gets finished for you.

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Of course it matters.  Now you're just choosing to have your character be broken.  Why would you do that?

I'm not choosing to. That's kind of the point. If I refuse to finish a conversation, the conversation gets finished for me, whether I want it to or not.

But it doesn't.  The conversation simply ends.  Nothing gets finished for you.

The game demonstrates later on that you chose something, even if you didn't. Remember? Cut scene? Fighting the bight?

[Maria Caliban]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

Yes, point the RPG at the tank and pull the trigger and watch it explode.

except RPG-7. those are inaccurate.

fairandbalanced!

I almost didn't notice you with your Garrus face.

[Pzykozis]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...
It's a shame that such fine games are essentially genre-less. Perhaps genre-less is the best genre!

They can be a lot of fun.

But I loathe the liberal, inaccurate, definition-less application of genres and labels used by marketing. I will never acknowledge them.

I'll do this one mostly because I'm just having a laugh with you with this. But according to yours and Sylvius' definition, there are no RPGs at all ever. Because I don't role-play.

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

The game demonstrates later on that you chose something, even if you didn't. Remember? Cut scene? Fighting the bight?

Yes, in the cutscene.  The cutscene forces the decision, wherein you actually let Duncan kill people and wilfully drink his poison.

Nothing in DAO makes you fight the Blight.  You're occasionally asked to fight off a small group of Darkspawn, but the game never makes you fight the Blight.

[Pzykozis]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Nothing in DAO makes you fight the Blight.  You're occasionally asked to fight off a small group of Darkspawn, but the game never makes you fight the Blight.

Flemeth's hut;

"can't I just run away"

"NO"

"Ok I guess... whats this treaty stuff?"

Damn, whats the place the HN is from... well whatever;

"I don't want to be a grey warden"

"Well I'm not helping you get out of this castle of evil folks killing everyone if you don't"

"That's alright I already know where the secret exit is I don't need your help, besides I've already killed tons of guys back here they're easy"

"Nope, you shall not pass until ye, agree to become a grey warden!"

Paraphrasing of course.

[Sylvius the Mad]

All the NPCs think you've agreed to fight the Blight, but you're not required actually to do so.

[Maria Caliban]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

All the NPCs think you've agreed to fight the Blight, but you're not required actually to do so.

"I'm not fighting the Blight, I was ninjamanced by the plot."

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 mars 2012 - 11:53 .

[Travie]

David Gaider wrote...

1) DA2 DLC sold quite well, thank you.

Everyone watched DA2's sales drop like a rock once word of mouth got around that it was a mediocre game. 

You may have gotten 700,000 preorders banking on DA:O's reputation, but I wouldn't count on that happening again after this...

Honestly I'm even surprised you guys got the go-ahead for DA:3, please take your time this go-around.

None of us want another rushed game.

[Deviija]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

All the NPCs think you've agreed to fight the Blight, but you're not required actually to do so.

Ah, yes, the "Blight."  /Turian airquotes

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
All the NPCs think you've agreed to fight the Blight, but you're not required actually to do so.

Your own dialog choices actually indicate that you are fighting the blight.

edit: By which I mean that you can't maintain character consistency without having accepted the mission to fight the blight.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 29 mars 2012 - 12:56 .

[omnitremere]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

All the NPCs think you've agreed to fight the Blight, but you're not required actually to do so.

I'm confused.  What do you define as required? If I remember correctly when you're standing in front of Flemeth's hut you must on some level agree to help Alistair.  You can do it begrudgingly but you can't just say "Good luck with that I'm going in the opposite direction".  And you have no options in dialogue or in your actions at any point to help the Archdemon.  So how are you not required to do so?

[Mad-Max90]

Coming back from mass effect...how in davey jones's locker they f'd up that ending I do not know, but I would like to say at least dragon age 2's lack of an ending was better than me3's ending, as a fan of the dragon age series I'd also like to point out how i was upset they were not going to do the expansion on 2, as the dlc for DA2 was by far some of the best, I have to say I enjoyed it more than the actual game on disc, and after playing the dlc I thought the team did a damn good job at listening to constructive criticism...I don't say this often but kudos dragon age team for listening

[Mad-Max90]

Seriously guys...mass effect 3 makes dragon age 2 look like kotor 1

[Yrkoon]

JediHealerCosmin wrote...

Also, to add to the topic: most of the time we have no fricking idea what the hell we want.

What?

If these threads indicate anything, it's that the complete opposite is true... so true that it's painful to look at.

We've got an entire E-soup of a forum consisting of  hoards of people with radically differing, defined, preferences.    I know exactly what I want,  and I suspect most others here do too.  And that's the problem that Bioware faces.    There's no way in hell   they'll ever be able to create a game that hits every single preference   on everyone's list, since some of these preferences are mutually excusive.  (Voiced protagonist  vs. Silent comes immediately to mind)

What they can  do, however, is  1) do what they've always done really well, and what got them here in the first place,  2) Scrap what was unpopular, instead of trying to "improve" it or  "refine" it.  Because there are definitely some things that most people flat out didn't want.  So why  waste time and energy trying to improve on the unwanted, when you could instead, work on adding to what  most people loved?)

Modifié par Yrkoon, 29 mars 2012 - 01:50 .

[kingtigernz]

[quote]Sylvius the Mad wrote...

[quote]Davillo wrote...

Whatever Bioware does they better not take inspiration from ****ty Kingdoms of Amalaur: Reckoning and other trash like Dungeon Siege 3 , if DA:3 game play feel shabby like those games than it's game over. [/quote]
I would agree that they should not, under any circumstances, pursue click-to-attack action combat.

 I agree Bioware should not change the tactical combat,but get rid of the ridiculous power ranger style and make IT MORE REALISTIC.Watching Mages twirl around like knob ends was a terrible idea.

[xnode]

Eh, many of you may hate me for saying it but alas...

ME3 was the best of all three and people will argue to me till their blue in the face telling me why it isn't, personally I thought it was epic and the only thing that  I cringed at was the ending. The cinematics where awsome, but the ending choices where not really choices.

This comes to DA2, while I never re-visit it other then for the DLC I bought (which was awsome!) , I can see DA2 with the vergances of some DAO mixed in to make one hell of a game, while I loved the days of BG and other titles, as with Skyrim, they advanced the tech to the era and this needs to happen with DA as well. DA2 to me was a step in the right direction for combat and other ideas (love that fast pace stuff), but stupid stuff like repeated zones and mobs dropping from the sky (lazy programing ) killed it for me. When the DLC came out this was adressed and I LOVED IT!

Now, mind you I would like to see DA go my way on somethings and I have posted here in my own thread about it, but alas that is something I am interested in. As far as the value of the "majority" are concerned, no one here can state what the majority thinks, that is up to the marketing people at EA/Bioware and those in charge of those departments to say what value is worth what.

The downfall to forums is, everyone thinks they are the unique perspective for the masses, if you actually didn't think that, half of your statements would never be written.

Modifié par xnode, 29 mars 2012 - 02:26 .

[YohkoOhno]

Dealing with the key issue asked

Here's the key thing. That target changes over time. People expect the company to remain the same, to serve their own needs, but there are a few truths.

1) Games change over time, especially because of the fidelity and improvements in technology. Older games get outdated fast. Just going back 5 years in the gaming world can make a huge difference. I love some of the old games I played--System Shock, Half Life, Deus Ex, Thief--but with the changes I can't really get enthused about playing them today.

2) The audience gradually changes. The same fans don't stick around. Some stop playing, but there are always new ones coming in. Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 are, for some people, their first RPG experience. And sometimes they get a new audience. And as the new blood comes in, people want different things.

This gradually changes what the audience wants. For instance, while some of the older fans insist they don't even need all their NPCs voiced, others don't even want the protagonist to be silent anymore.

3) Games are faddish just like anything else. Some last, some don't. Text games and Point and Click adventure games used to dominate the market, but they dwindled to a niche market. The same can be said of RPGs.

4) No company--NO COMPANY--ever wants to be typecast. Bioware is not an RPG only studio--it never was. The fans like to think of it as such, because of their biggest successes, but no company wants to be typecast.

5) Sometimes, you can't listen to your fans, especially if the market is going in another direction and the old market is dwindling. WordPerfect, for instance, made a big mistake by sticking with DOS when "the customers" told them that's what they wanted. But it turned out once they were exposed to Windows, they went with Word. It can be dangerous to listen and stick with your current strategy if the winds of change are coming.

6) Sometimes, you have to experiment. Things that have become commonplace in gaming came from some developer taking a chance. Diablo invented the modern loot drop, WoW the colored text over monsters, Gears of War the cover system, Half-Life the scripted sequences in shooters, etc.

7) Bioware has better data, with their metrics and focus groups. We are subjective, and tend to place what we want more than what is good for the company. And we tend to overemphasize our POVs with pleading, stating things like "we" or "an overwhelming majority" or other such nonsense that we can't prove.

8) Eventually, fans are one of two types--they either adapt to the changes and move with the times and the common fads, or they become disenfranchised, and lose interest. Think of it akin to modern music--some keep up with modern music, other reject it when it moved to Disco, New Wave, Rap, Grunge, Auto-Tune, etc. The latter can be dangerous to a company because it prevents them from innovating or moving in new directions.

9) Sometimes, the fans are competing with their own nostalgia. I know BG2 is well regarded, but seriously, I don't think ANYTHING Bioware will do can compete with this if this was a milestone in your RPG experience. As you get older, you get a little more jaded and cynical, as you experience more it's harder to "wow" you. So Bioware shouldn't compete with that.

What I have trouble understanding is this--with all of the choices out there--why don't the disenfranchised move on. Why keep harping on these changes. If you don't like what Bioware has to offer--just move on. I don't understand the anger or the constant pleading and arguing when it's clear what direction they want to go in. You have tons of choices nowadays, choose something else more your style.  There are lots of indie developers, alternate RPGs out there (Skyrim, The Witcher, Kingdoms of Amalur, Deus Ex), and even revivals (Wasteland 2, X-Com, Baldur's Gate EE).

I have a lot of trouble understanding the virtually masochistic experience of debating with developers when it's clear there are things they aren't going to go back to.  

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 29 mars 2012 - 02:27 .

[Yrkoon]

xnode wrote...
As far as the value of the "majority" are concerned, no one here can state what the majority thinks, that is up to the marketing people at EA/Bioware and those in charge of those departments to say what value is worth what.
 

This isn't true either.

Marketing certainly has the right to try and figure out what the majority thinks/wants/needs, though.  But their current track record  suggests  they're even more clueless than me and you.

[xnode]

YohkoOhno,

Good post, but also never under-estimate the fan base, they can make or break you, SWG is a prime example and the easiest one to name. (star wars galaxies), In the end fans and forum runners are important, but the issue is they over-state that importance as meaning everyone thinks the same thing and can easily be seen in these forums that is further from the truth then the actual truth attempting to be told.

[xnode]

Yrkoon wrote...

xnode wrote...
As far as the value of the "majority" are concerned, not one here can state what the majority thinks, that is up to the marketing people at EA/Bioware and those in charge of those departments to say what value is worth what.
 

This isn't true either.

Marketing certainly has the right to try and figure out what the majority thinks/wants/needs, though.  But their current track record  suggests  they're even more clueless than me and you.

Might be true or not, but we are no the company, you can insist they are wrong, until they hire new people that agree with your line of thinking ,you sir, are wrong.  No insult intended, it's just facts of marketing, in my company I do not beleive our strategy is going well and I have numbers to prove it, however those that are the powers that be won't beleive them. Their loss and sadly probably mine as we are loosing sales.

Modifié par xnode, 29 mars 2012 - 02:31 .

[YohkoOhno]

Good post, but also never under-estimate the fan base, they can make or break you, SWG is a prime example and the easiest one to name. (star wars galaxies), In the end fans and forum runners are important, but the issue is they over-state that importance as meaning everyone thinks the same thing and can easily be seen in these forums that is further from the truth then the actual truth attempting to be told.

That's true. I was pointing out that metrics can mean more than fan input sometimes. For instance, if people are saying that ME3 was "so bad" that they don't play it anymore, and yet they track a lot of people playing it over the weeks, then they have facts to back it up and prove it's a vocal minority. If people actually boycott and stop playing, they can detect this issue.

That doesn't mean they can't screw it up, but it does put them in a better position for understanding the audience, including the silent ones.

[Yrkoon]

xnode wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

xnode wrote...
As far as the value of the "majority" are concerned, not one here can state what the majority thinks, that is up to the marketing people at EA/Bioware and those in charge of those departments to say what value is worth what.
 

This isn't true either.

Marketing certainly has the right to try and figure out what the majority thinks/wants/needs, though.  But their current track record  suggests  they're even more clueless than me and you.

Might be true or not, but we are no the company, you can insist they are wrong, until they hire new people that agree with your line of thinking ,you sir, are wrong.  No insult intended, it's just facts of marketing, in my company I do not beleive our strategy is going well and I have numbers to prove it, however those that are the powers that be won't beleive them. Their loss and sadly probably mine as we are loosing sales.

Nope.  Games are Art.  Focus groups cannot crunch numbers together to make art.  They  can, however,  gather data and reach a general consensus on what direction they need to go.  But that will only take them so far.  And in the end, sales figures will tell them if they guessed correctly enough to succeed.

The bottom line is that  DA:O   sold far better than DA2.   Your "theory crafting" won't overcome this.  Even marketing logic would dictate that the direction they need to go would be towards the DA:O formula.   Continuing with the DA2 formula, though,    in the hopes that it may produce DA:O's superior sales success, is a gamble... with the unknown.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 29 mars 2012 - 02:43 .

[YohkoOhno]

Yrkoon wrote...
Nope.  Games are Art.  Focus groups cannot crunch numbers together to make art.  They  can, however,  gather data and reach a general consensus on what direction they need to go.  But that will only take them so far.  And in the end, sales figures will tell them if they guessed correctly enough to succeed.

The bottom line, which you won't be able to overcome, is that  DA:O   sold far better than DA2.  So even marketing logic would dictate that the direction they need to go would be towards the DA:O formula.   Continuing with the DA2 formula   in the hopes that it may produce DA:O's superior sales success is a gamble... with the unknown.

They kind of do it with movies.  And if you go into Mass Effect's forums, and on the Internet, you now see a lot of fans saying "games are NOT art" and arguing about that.  I disagree with their general assumption (and I would hate to see plots changed based on consumer rage), but I also know that the "art" of creating video games is a lot like Hollywood, which does take a lot of direction from surveys and other elements.  

As far as the sales figures--unless their metrics tell them something like 50% of people played through DA2 where only 25% played through DA:O, and that 1 million people bought it because it was the holiday Season and they thought from the commercials it was God of War.  While I'm just making those figured up, that's a hypothesis.  But you have less knowledge than the developer does in terms of whether it made a profit or how it proved on certain fronts.   

DA2 was rushed and does have flaws, don't get me wrong.  But I don't think changes like the lack of an origin story or a voice protagonist is the cause of that.  At the end of the day, all you can say is why you personally don't like the game.  That's all you can do.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 29 mars 2012 - 02:47 .

[Maria Caliban]

xnode wrote...

Eh, many of you may hate me for saying it but alas...

ME3 was the best of all three and people will argue to me till their blue in the face telling me why it isn't, personally I thought it was epic and the only thing that  I cringed at was the ending. The cinematics where awsome, but the ending choices where not really choices.

Why would anyone hate you for saying this? It's the group consensus at the ME forums.

YohkoOhno wrote...

That's true. I was pointing out that metrics can mean more than fan input sometimes. For instance, if people are saying that ME3 was "so bad" that they don't play it anymore, and yet they track a lot of people playing it over the weeks, then they have facts to back it up and prove it's a vocal minority. If people actually boycott and stop playing, they can detect this issue.

That doesn't mean they can't screw it up, but it does put them in a better position for understanding the audience, including the silent ones.

Their metrics are going to show the vast majority of people play only once while a significant minority never finish the game.

That's the way it is for all their games.