942 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

liesandpropaganda wrote...

Waht is strawman

It's when you misrepresent a position in order to attack the target you've constructed.

You use them to refute arguments you've invented yourself.  

It's easy for AngryFrozenWater to say voiceovers are dumb, for example, if the only reason they exist is because people don't like reading.

Trouble is it's self-serving nonsense.

I call the phrases, marked by you as strawmen, the end states of trends. Pure speculation of course, although every new BW title seems to move into that direction. Sometimes less can be benificial, but in BW's case it seems less is all they have to offer.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

liesandpropaganda wrote...

Waht is strawman

It's when you misrepresent a position in order to attack the target you've constructed.

You use them to refute arguments you've invented yourself.  

It's easy for AngryFrozenWater to say voiceovers are dumb, for example, if the only reason they exist is because people don't like reading.

Trouble is it's self-serving nonsense.

And alot of it is true, there is far less dialog now due to everything needing to be voiced and paraphrased. Which translates to less over all dialog over a type out line. I just love roleplaying Hawke when I pick a line and say to Merril upon meeting her, "Don't be so nervous" Some how translates into "You'll have to do alot more to offend me, My name is Hawke"    Because really having my character say something completely different than the line picked is somehow roleplaying.

As for choices it doesn't matter what you pick throughout the game, Anders still blows up the chantry even if you warn the templars, you still fight Merridith and the mages, even if you side with the mages. And don't let me even bring the travesty that ME3's ending is completely invalidating 3 full games worth of player made choices.

Customization was simplified and in instances removed, for Iconic Looks because somehow Isabella looking like a working girl for the entire game is more important for her "character development" than allowing player choice/customization over party in a PARTY based RPG.

Same ol BDF anything folks like you and Maria and the usual suspects find something you can't dispute out comes the "strawman" arguement bs.

Next you'll be saying DA2 wasn't at all rushed. 

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 26 mars 2012 - 10:54 .

[AgenTBC]

Oh god, please don't use Skyrim as inspiration for future Bioware games. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

[mesmerizedish]

Joy Divison wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Sequels often sell poorly when the original wasn't well received. Maybe a bunch of people bought Dragon Age: Origins on the strength of games like Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect, but didn't like it and so didn't buy the sequel. :innocent:

You know this isn't applicable to DA and yet you posted it anway .

In what way is it not applicable to DA?

Sequels often sell poorly when the original wasn't well received.

And see Brockololly's post.

I have a Chrome script that ensures I never have to see anything Brockololly has written, so no thank you.

With regard to your bolding, Maria went on to say "Maybe a bunch of people bought Dragon Age: Origins on the strength of games like Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect, but didn't like it."

See, I can bold things too! In her hypothetical, Origins was not well-received by the audience she is considering. Read and consider her entire post instead of picking out-of-context quotes for you to bold.

[upsettingshorts]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I call the phrases, marked by you as strawmen, the end states of trends.

They're biased conclusions based on assumptions that misrepresent positions.

The only end state of a trend here is your having taken consistently refuted arguments and presenting them as though you aren't aware that they've been taken apart and/or numerous times, if not by me personally in threads I clearly remember than by many others - including but not limited to those with BioWare tags - in threads I didn't participate in.

And in doing so, you are being disingenuous.  My speculation is that you're so confident in the superiority of your preferences and perspective that you're doing this casually and not cynically.  That's some small saving grace, at least.

AngryFrozenWater wrote... 

Pure speculation of course, although every new BW title seems to move into that direction. Sometimes less can be benificial, but in BW's case it seems less is all they have to offer.

That is because, as you implied, you do not appreciate their value.
It is also because, as I imply, you do not appreciate that they could have value for anyone else unless they are dumb.

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

And alot of it is true

Nope.

See that old thread for why I refuse to engage you at length, and - coincidentally - a bit of a partial explanation as to why those arguments are manufactured based on the premise that what they deliver can't possibly have value to people who aren't you.  Something you still haven't learned, which is frankly embarrassing.

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote... 

Same ol BDF anything folks like you and Maria and the usual suspects find something you can't dispute out comes the "strawman" arguement bs.

You don't see the irony in making a "usual suspects" argument?  You?  

This whole thread is filled with usual suspects.  If that means my arguments are worthless, so are yours.  

It just so happens it's just a typically shallow attempt to discredit people.  The fact you can claim with a straight face that AFW's arguments can't be disputed is either evidence you can't read or haven't been paying attention.  Oh, there's also willful ignorance, I think I'll go with that one.

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote... 

Next you'll be saying DA2 wasn't at all rushed. 

Strawman.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 26 mars 2012 - 11:02 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Thanks for proving my point Angrypants. Only took all of 1 post. bravo!

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Thanks for proving my point Angrypants. Only took all of 1 post. bravo!

This has been fun.   I'd love to borrow your brain for a day, everything must seem so simple.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 26 mars 2012 - 11:01 .

[mesmerizedish]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Thanks for proving my point Angrypants. Only took all of 1 post. bravo!

You were making a point? 

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Thanks for proving my point Angrypants. Only took all of 1 post. bravo!

This has been fun.   I'd love to borrow your brain for a day, everything must seem so simple.

That you consider a RPG pushed out the door in 18 months with fedex quests galore, less customization, etc etc not rushed? You don't need to be a rocket scientist seriously. It's cool I get it, the usual defenders who love Bioware's shift to "action" games with pretty cinematics got their wish. Enjoy.

[Joy Divison]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...


I have a Chrome script that ensures I never have to see anything Brockololly has written, so no thank you.

With regard to your bolding, Maria went on to say "Maybe a bunch of people bought Dragon Age: Origins on the strength of games like Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect, but didn't like it."

See, I can bold things too! In her hypothetical, Origins was not well-received by the audience she is considering. Read and consider her entire post instead of picking out-of-context quotes for you to bold.

Seeing how you make it a practice to simply disregard stuff without actually reading it, I can see why you fail to see why her enitre statement taken together is problematic.  There is nothing wrong with the sentence you selectively bolded.  It's perfectly valid.  Part of the audience no doubt felt that way.  That's why I didn't raise it when you asked what was wrong with her statement.

That still does not change the fact that she made a generalized statement about Dragon Age's reception that is simply not true.  The initial statement makes no such reference that it was not well received when considering a specific segment of the auidence.  You are making the connection because you believe that is what she meant, and maybe she did, but that is not what she wrote.  

Modifié par Joy Divison, 26 mars 2012 - 11:09 .

[Tsuga C]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote... 

Next you'll be saying DA2 wasn't at all rushed. 

Strawman.

And with that choice little denial of reality you've lost whatever credibility you may have enjoyed.  You are positively Orwellian. 

[upsettingshorts]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Thanks for proving my point Angrypants. Only took all of 1 post. bravo!

You were making a point? 

Her point has always been the same:  "Anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot or a fool and deserves an appropriate amount of respect."

Not to mention she bases her impression of a poster's relative intelligence or foolishness on what game features they like.  Understand this, re-read her posts and they become a bit more coherent, in their own sad way.

Here's a fantastic example:

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote... 

Next you'll be saying DA2 wasn't at all rushed. 

Strawman.

 

I was saying that she was clearly attempting to misrepresent my position on DA2 by claiming I would argue that the game was not rushed.  I am not arguing this.  Of course it was.  But if Jinstar can't discredit me by attemping to associate me with stupid, made-up positions, she might actually have to read.

But she chose to interpret my labeling this - a strawman - as a strawman was actually me saying that DA2 wasn't rushed.

It's revealing that she dismisses my pointing out these things as some kind of desperation tactic meant to coverup my inability to respond adaquetely when she apparently can't even recognize what a strawman actually is.

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Thanks for proving my point

 

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 26 mars 2012 - 11:14 .

[upsettingshorts]

Tsuga C wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote... 

Next you'll be saying DA2 wasn't at all rushed. 

Strawman.

And with that choice little denial of reality you've lost whatever credibility you may have enjoyed.  You are positively Orwellian. 

Hah, Tsuga C does it too!

You guys really are special.

[cJohnOne]

Brockololly wrote...

cJohnOne wrote...
How do we know this isn't applicable to DA with respect to the reason sales went down in the Sequel.  As opposed to any other reason.

Because as I posted, DA2 was selling faster than Origins in the first 2 weeks. It got to one million copies sold faster than DAO. In large part due to significant preorder numbers that made up a good chunk of those early one million copies. And yet, it didn't end up outselling Origins but rather Origins ended up significantly outselling DA2. DA2's sales tanked after a couple weeks probably in part due to the harsh word of mouth the title developed.

If people did not like Origins you would think DA2 would not have achieved good preorder numbers, but it did.

Ha ha,  I think natural attrition is a more reasonble explanation than a whisper campaign.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tsuga C wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote... 

Next you'll be saying DA2 wasn't at all rushed. 

Strawman.

And with that choice little denial of reality you've lost whatever credibility you may have enjoyed.  You are positively Orwellian. 

Hah, Tsuga C does it too!

You guys really are special.

You yourself called it a strawman, if you felt it was also rushed say so. Otherwise It just makes you look the same as you acuse others of being.

[David Gaider]

AgenTBC wrote...
Oh god, please don't use Skyrim as inspiration for future Bioware games. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

The problem is exactly what we refer to by suggesting we don't want to talk specifics until we have something to show.

What do we mean when we say Skyrim is a source of inspiration? Well, clearly we mean that DA3 would be like Syrim in every respect... a copy of the game, its action-oriented gamplay, its single protaganist and story-delivery method and so forth.

Or not.

Far better for us to show what we mean, as opposed to having people jump to conclusions and react in horror (as Dragon Age and the TES series are fundamentally different in their design goals) and demand explanations we can't really give yet-- and, even if we could, it'd be in words only... and, even though I'm a writer, there's really only so much that words can convey.

So I'll just say that's not the entire story and I'd suggest caution before reading too much into that.

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

You yourself called it a strawman, if you felt it was also rushed say so. Otherwise It just makes you look the same as you acuse others of being.

Are you honestly not following along?  Really?  I will spell it out for you (and apparently Tsuga):

CoS Sarah Jinstar: "You are such a BDF that you'd probly argue DA2 wasn't rushed!"
Me: "Saying I would argue DA2 isn't rushed is a strawman."
CoS: "Hah! You said DA2 wasn't rushed.  You are clearly a fool."
Me: "No, I'm saying you're making up my position in order to force me into defending something I don't believe."
Cos: "Why don't you say something you believe then."
Me:  "Why don't you stop misrepresenting my argument and learn what a strawman is so at least when you use them you'll know that you're actually ****ing doing it."

[John Epler]

Let's cut out the bickering and the sniping. One and only warning.

[mesmerizedish]

Joy Divison wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...


I have a Chrome script that ensures I never have to see anything Brockololly has written, so no thank you.

With regard to your bolding, Maria went on to say "Maybe a bunch of people bought Dragon Age: Origins on the strength of games like Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect, but didn't like it."

See, I can bold things too! In her hypothetical, Origins was not well-received by the audience she is considering. Read and consider her entire post instead of picking out-of-context quotes for you to bold.

Seeing how you make it a practice to simply disregard stuff without actually reading it,

This would only be relevent if I made any attempt to answer those things I disregard. I have no desire to engage Brockololly on anything.

I can see why you fail to see why her enitre statement taken together is problematic.

If not seeing Maria's statement as problematic is indeed a failure, I guarantee you that it is not for your stated reasons.

There is nothing wrong with the sentence you selectively bolded.  It's perfectly valid.  Part of the audience no doubt felt that way.  That's why I didn't raise it when you asked what was wrong with her statement.

I didn't bold a sentence, I bolded a phrase.

That still does not change the fact that she made a generalized statement about Dragon Age's reception that is simply not true.

She made no such generalization.

The initial statement makes no such reference that it was not well received when considering a specific segment of the auidence.

Her initial statement was not about DA or any game in particular. It was simply "Sequels often sell poorly when the original wasn't well received." This is demonstrably true. Only then does she make any assertion regarding Dragon Age in particular. I already addressed that sentence, and you agreed that it was not problematic 

You are making the connection because you believe that is what she meant, and maybe she did, but that is not what she wrote.

I am making the connection because it is exactly what she wrote, as I just demonstrated. You are removing her hypothetical from its place and putting it in her premise. Not only is this fallacious, it isn't even a reasonable mistake to make.

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
Far better for us to show what we mean, as opposed to having people jump to conclusions and react in horror (as Dragon Age and the TES series are fundamentally different in their design goals) and demand explanations we can't really give yet-- and, even if we could, it'd be in words only... and, even though I'm a writer, there's really only so much that words can convey.

I guess the bolded is my question then: What do you see as the design goals of Dragon Age as compared to your perceived design goals of Skyrim or TES games? Certainly there is probably some overlap in the actual goals, but you and Bethesda are simply going about achieving some of those goals in different ways?

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
This
would only be relevent if I made any attempt to answer those things I
disregard. I have no desire to engage Brockololly on anything.

...ummm ok? I'd love to have a conversation with you but I guess I pissed in your Wheaties in the past somehow?

cJohnOne wrote...
Ha ha,  I think natural attrition is a more reasonble explanation than a whisper campaign.

Word of mouth can most definitely help or hurt a game.

Modifié par Brockololly, 26 mars 2012 - 11:36 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

[Post removed]

Modifié par John Epler, 26 mars 2012 - 11:28 .

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


It also really doesn't help that David Silverman is the mouthpiece through which much of the showing and telling is being done.

It's hard to criticize a salesman/marketing type without it sounding like a personal attack.

I'd suggest that the people who hang around BioWare forums are rather sensitive to whether someone is a 'real' role-player, and while Silverman does not lack for enthusiasm, he doesn't feel that authentic. He does not come off as a man who knows what THAC0 is and probably can't name the Ventrue clan weakness.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...


It also really doesn't help that David Silverman is the mouthpiece through which much of the showing and telling is being done.

It's hard to criticize a salesman/marketing type without it sounding like a personal attack.

I'd suggest that the people who hang around BioWare forums are rather sensitive to whether someone is a 'real' role-player, and while Silverman does not lack for enthusiasm, he doesn't feel that authentic. He does not come off as a man who knows what THAC0 is and probably can't name the Ventrue clan weakness.

This I actually agree with you on Maria.

[Xewaka]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
It also really doesn't help that David Silverman is the mouthpiece through which much of the showing and telling is being done.

It's hard to criticize a salesman/marketing type without it sounding like a personal attack.
I'd suggest that the people who hang around BioWare forums are rather sensitive to whether someone is a 'real' role-player, and while Silverman does not lack for enthusiasm, he doesn't feel that authentic. He does not come off as a man who knows what THAC0 is and probably can't name the Ventrue clan weakness.

Bah. That's too mainstream. At least ask which son of Doji and Kakita ventured to the Shadowlands to recover the Crane Thunder's blade.
You know, something meaty.