509 réponses à ce sujet

[CrazyRah]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Hathur wrote...

Funny how you don't really see people scream bloody murder or demand refunds when they come out of a theater after having watched a terrible movie...

You also don't see people returning to bookstores demanding a refund after having read a book that was satisfying, except for the end.

I'm disappointed honestly with how entitled my fellow gamers often seem to be... I've played video games for about 29 years, invested thousands upon thousands of hours of my life in countless games... I've played horrible games.. played great games that ended sourly... yet never once felt I was owed something by the people who created it... the only time I ever grew as upset as the BSN seems to be is if a game was so buggy or broken it was not possible to play properly.

You're allowed to not like the ending, to hate it even... you're allowed to never buy another Bioware game ever again if you're that upset.... but to demand they change their game or even give a refund because of it? ... Doesn't work for books or movies or music... no reason it should apply to games...

You don't like game, fine.. voice your opinion and move on... these "movements" by the community are frankly offensive to the very notion of freedom of expression and creativity...

.

That is hilariously contradictory. The community has every right to request change to a franchise they love, to call upon their right of "freedom of expression" as you put it; insinuating that freedom of expression is exclusive only to writers. No one is holding a damned gun to Bioware's head; they have every right to say "**** off". The day consumers cannot express their opinions and desires will be a grave day for Capitalism. 

On top of this; the ending is not "art". It is fundamentally flawed in it's very design. It completely puts aside any form of logic, basically making it impossible to choose an option that makes some form of sense to the player. The ending is a literary disaster; contradicting itself at every turn and discarding themes that have been built upon for three games.

But like i said, Bioware has every right to say "No" to the fanbase. It will be an objective detriment to the franchise, but they have that right. It is them and only them that have made a decision to revise the ending. 

I couldn't have said it better myself. People being disappointed in people expressing their opinions that is a human right i might add is hilarious and sad at the same time.

Oh and Hathur.. i've seen quite a number of people wanting a refund for a terrible movie 

[NM_Che56]

Heat not hear

[NedPepper]

TheChris92 wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

The point most of you seem to be missing? You are treating Mass Effect 3 as if it were a faulty can opener and you want a refund.

Art doesn't work that. Never has. When art becomes a consumer product, you can have an opinion, you can express disappointment, but what right do you have to tell them to change their story? That's the entitlement. You got a functioning game. (For the most part....facial import not cool, but they'r fixing it). You actually got a really well made game. You just didn't like the ending.

Should Damon Lindeloff create a new ending to Lost?

Should Stephen King write a new ending to The Dark Tower?

Should George Lucas go in and make changes year after year to Star Wars? (Wait, don't answer that.)

Maybe the ending sucks. It happens. But you are owed nothing. The fact that they are willing to even discuss changing the ending? That's being kind. And, in my opinion, also not having the guts to stand up to your vision. At least the Lost creators stand up for their polarizing ending. King even told people at the beginning that the ending may not be what you want, but as the man telling the story, it was the ending that was RIGHT. I'm a firm believer in sticking to your guns. Bioware chose to go this route. I don't understand why they would cave in now....

Then again, maybe they're afraid they won't sell anymore can openers....

The problem with what you're saying though is the fact that BioWare has actually changed this game once, so why should it suddenly be a problem now? Remember the leaked script? The game was very different back then, it even had a completely different ending. It even had some scenarios that were cut from the final product. Then there were the promises of a whole variety of endings for the game. The fact that you can't narrow the endings down to "A, B and C" was proven to be exactly the case after all. I think it's unfair to not deliver on that promise, because that's one of the great principles that this franchise stands for. It's about making important decisions and thus experience the repercussions of these decisions. The endings we were given did not deliver on this at all in my honest opinion. I do not feel entitled I just feel incredibly disappointed. That is all.

I didn't read the leaked draft of the script.  I don't enjoy spoiling a story meant to be played and seen. 

Take the issue up with marketing.  And how many times do you walk into a movie or pick up a book with expectations that don't live up to the hype.  Look at most movie trailers.  Half the time, studios try and market a movie in ways that completely contradict what the director was intending. 

I'm not saying there are not issues at a corporate level.  EA and Bioware do not seem to be a good fit and it shows.  And I'm not even saying you don't have a right to be disappointed.  That's your preference.  What am I saying is that the fans are not owed anything more than what they got.  I actually find the idea that they are going to SELL new endings to be disappointing.  You want to buy a non canon ending to a finished game just to feel better about it?  There's something depressingly cynical about that.

I'd rather just accept that this was their vision and I had a great time enjoying the journey.  Endings do not make up the totality of an experience.  It's like saying someone dying at the end of their long life depresses you and takes away all the happy memories you had of them.   It doesn't.  And creating the perfect ending to any beloved series is one the most challenging aspects a writer has to deal with.  George RR Martin keeps talking about his giant fear of messing up Game of Thrones.  You ever think maybe that's why he's so scared to end it or even work towards an ending?  Fan expectations can sometimes take on a life of their own.  It is what it is.  I just think people need some perspective here.

[WizenSlinky0]

You're mixing up the personal and professional sides of Bioware. I have no reason to apologize to a corporation that has, on some level, failed to deliver to me a satisfying product. It is my right as a consumer to be displeased with what I have received if I feel it does not live up to whatever expectation was formed by their statements. I have said multiple times that the game leading up to the ending was most of what I could ask for. Some unfortunately missing or broken things but overall a very enjoyable experience.

However, for me the ending is a big deal. It may not be for some and I respect that. Either way the only people who would have to apologize is anybody who made personal attacks against the staff at Bioware.

If you are unable to separate the personal and professional sides of Bioware then you're making a fatal mistake against good consumerism.

[Kondorr]

There should be no apologizing from the community... there should be a lot of patching and apologizing the community!

[MrLee95]

As I posted on his site...

I agree!! I enjoy paying $80 for a game that if 95% complete and I only have to wait a few months later to PAY $$ for the last 5%! GREAT IDEA.... /sarcasm

[AlienSpaceBats]

I think that some people have been overreacting and cruel (and they probably should apologize), but the majority of us were disappointed with the game, you can't apologize for being honest.

Airtight never got an apology for what everyone said about Dark Void.

[Aesieru]

MrLee95 wrote...

As I posted on his site...

I agree!! I enjoy paying $80 for a game that if 95% complete and I only have to wait a few months later to PAY $$ for the last 5%! GREAT IDEA.... /sarcasm

The issue is that the ending has links throughout the entirety of the game as that's what allows that particular ending to exist and function, even in the sense of numerous plot holes.

It was far more than 95% of the game... nothing mattered and continuity was thrown out everywhere.

[Kalas82]

I don`t think anyone should apologize for freedom of speech..it`s sparse enough these days.
I sincerly love ME3....but i also have the right to say that it`s ending was perhaps the worst peace of story-telling s***t i ve ever seen...the whole game feels like from another developer right after the beam hits Shep.
Since ME3 was meant to be the ending for the trilogy, it`s ending plays quite i role, at least in my opinion.
Had the ending been just "bad" i wouldn`t mind, but its mindnumbing stupid in any way shape or form....with it a major part of the ME3-gamemechanics also seem pointless.

War-assets? for what? diffrent coloured explosions?
Galaxy-at-war? see above.
Decisions made in ME1-2, ME3 bevor the beam hits? pointless, see above.

The ending wasn`t just bad, it affected ME1-2 and the majority of ME3 as well, especially the story (one of MEs selling arguments).

If we just look at the story....you literaly can make everything star-god-child-wtf.?-thing says invalid if you play ME1-3 the paragon way....you prove even more how stupid the ending of the trilogy is by just playing it.

So why in gods name should anyone apologize?
I would be a sad sign if everything stayed quiet...which would mean there was no one who actualy cared about this game-series.

[Getorex]

Bik00014 wrote...

Nah, I bought the game and haven't said a single offensive word to BW

I HAVE written offensive words (insults), but they were deserved.  I would not, and have not, threatened anyone with any form of physical harm.  Just financial.  No more of my money.  Joining with enough other disgruntled customers who failed to receive the product they actually purchased (what was promised and repeatedly advertised up to the day of release) our "threat" can be made good.  Insults: casting aspersions towards one's intellectual acumen are warranted and need not be apologized for when there is ample objective evidence to support  those aspersions.

Corporations deserve financial threats.  That's the medium of communication that they understand.  The ONLY thing they understand.

Modifié par Getorex, 26 mars 2012 - 01:06 .

[Andromidius]

I'll consider an apology after they fix the product they sold me. And after they apologise for the snide remarks they've made about their fanbase.

[RoninTX]

why would I need to apologize to Bioware? I have not been rude nor hateful towards them.
I am disappointed and sad at what bioware did to their fans.

Though I am blame myself abit too because the moment I heard Bioware had sold themselves to EA. I was already afraid this would happen.
Though you can see it within Bioware too, how many people already left them since EA got their chubby paws on them?

[Getorex]

RoninTX wrote...

why would I need to apologize to Bioware? I have not been rude nor hateful towards them.
I am disappointed and sad at what bioware did to their fans.

Though I am blame myself abit too because the moment I heard Bioware had sold themselves to EA. I was already afraid this would happen.
Though you can see it within Bioware too, how many people already left them since EA got their chubby paws on them?

The people that left?  MOST of the people responsible for the excellent Mass Effect 1 left shorthly thereafter (as EA dived in). 

Nuff said.

[xrogaan]

Zaasz wrote...

Not everyone is going to agree, but I personally found that the entirety of the game was well above average, beyond that actually. I agree that Mass Effect is our first true video game "epic" but I also think there could be some more closure as well. This article from GGTL is kinda long, but it sums up a lot of the criticisms and calls into question much of the unnecessary hate BioWare has been receiving.

http://www.gamersgui...efront-and.html

What do you all think? Was it really necessary to attack BioWare personally for something that isn't even THAT bad? Yeah, I think the endings could have answered a bit more and maybe we could have seen more from the war assets in the final battle, but overall I was intrigued by the end.

No, the ending is cheap. It suck. They could have done better. And the only logical way to explain it is that they plan to release more content based on the cheap stuff we got. Therefor, the ending is not an ending but an cliffhanger. It ends shepard but not the story.

Also, I don't attack bioware, I just feel that they are trying to suck my money.

Edit: Also, they got my 50€. They are probably happy with them. Them won't get much more...

Modifié par xrogaan, 26 mars 2012 - 01:12 .

[FlyingWalrus]

Oh boy.

[mcgreggers99]

nedpepper wrote...

The point most of you seem to be missing? You are treating Mass Effect 3 as if it were a faulty can opener and you want a refund.

Art doesn't work that. Never has. When art becomes a consumer product, you can have an opinion, you can express disappointment, but what right do you have to tell them to change their story? That's the entitlement. You got a functioning game. (For the most part....facial import not cool, but they'r fixing it). You actually got a really well made game. You just didn't like the ending.

Should Damon Lindeloff create a new ending to Lost?

Should Stephen King write a new ending to The Dark Tower?

Should George Lucas go in and make changes year after year to Star Wars? (Wait, don't answer that.)

Maybe the ending sucks. It happens. But you are owed nothing. The fact that they are willing to even discuss changing the ending? That's being kind. And, in my opinion, also not having the guts to stand up to your vision. At least the Lost creators stand up for their polarizing ending. King even told people at the beginning that the ending may not be what you want, but as the man telling the story, it was the ending that was RIGHT. I'm a firm believer in sticking to your guns. Bioware chose to go this route. I don't understand why they would cave in now....

Then again, maybe they're afraid they won't sell anymore can openers....

*Stands up and applauds*


The verbal venom on this forum is pretty intense. People LOVE this series and all they want is for it to be closed up (for now) with the send off it truly deserves. These
developers are doing what they are paid to do...yes...but at the same
time lets not forget that they absolutely LOVE the ME universe and lore as much as we do.  I  agree
that the ending was a punch in the gut, and I think it could have been
handled better. But they aren't done yet, and it's actively known that
they are working on providing closure to the greatest "single player"
experience in gaming today. They want to correct this not only because it will prove benficial in the future for them as a company, but also because I've never seen
developer that actively incorporates player feedback like this company
does.

Full disclosure here, I partially believe in the Indoctrination theory.
www.youtube.com/watch


I believe that Bioware went through re-writes and a time crunch and they went with a route that gave us "their fans" too much credit in our
ability to unravel the ending they provided. It's been decrypted now, but it's happened too late in the game (I.e. after fanboy blowback) and the damage to the franchise has been done. It is a self inflicted wound. I
think they anticipated a little discussion and confusion about the ending, but this anger
did catch them off guard. It turns out that "their fans" might not be
the trusting highminded philosophical gamers they thought. They MUST have known that the ending was going to be controversial.

I seriously think this is a case where they overestimated our ability to read into things...this is what happens when you say that it's a great jumping on point for the franchise when playing through 1 and 2 is REQUIRED to understand what is happening with the protagonist.

At
the end of the day I'm still happy knowing that they are working on
more story content and that I can spend just a little bit longer with
this world I enjoy. I do think that they'll do right on this conclusion,
we just need to be patient.

In the meantime PAX east is quickly approaching. Let's see what comes of that.

(Also Geoff Keighley has staded that he's updating his "Final hours" app. I wonder if it's by request or of his own choosing.)

[Jade5233]

If we are not being rude or attacking individuals, we have no reason to apologize. I have only been expressing my honest options and feelings about the game and it's horrible ending.

Instead, I agree with those above that if anything BioWare should apologize to us for breaking faith with their dedicated fans. For making promises that they didn't keep. For knowing in advance that we would be upset with the ending and yet doing it anyways. I feel betrayed and disappointed. I won't apologize for that.

[DragonRageGT]

Bojan1es wrote...

Embrosil wrote...

If you go to a restaurant, have a wonderful meal but the dessert makes you vomit, will you also aplogize? I do not think so.

Blunt.. but very well put, kinda sums up alot of the views i've seen posted.

True, but we also do not shoot the waiter, the cook and the restaurant owner because of that. We may ask a new Dessert Lovable Cake for free and they should give us. (Sorry if my DLC thing sucks. Hard to create poetry in a language other than my own. =)

[LiquidLogic2020]

Company's are NOT your friend, if they can't handle a backlash after people are dissatisfied with their product then clearly they are in the wrong business. But then going on the writing from their latest games it seems they are already in the wrong business.

[Getorex]

DragonRageGT wrote...

Bojan1es wrote...

Embrosil wrote...

If you go to a restaurant, have a wonderful meal but the dessert makes you vomit, will you also aplogize? I do not think so.

Blunt.. but very well put, kinda sums up alot of the views i've seen posted.

True, but we also do not shoot the waiter, the cook and the restaurant owner because of that. We may ask a new Dessert Lovable Cake for free and they should give us. (Sorry if my DLC thing sucks. Hard to create poetry in a language other than my own. =)

You DO potentially sue the restaurant and even yell at the chef, the staff, the manager.  They contaminated the food and made you violently ill.  Food poisoning isn't just gone after you get over it.  It leaves permanent lingering problems for you.  You do not acquiesce and say, "sh*t happens" (so to speak).

[Lincoln MuaDib]

Nedpepper, if I could point something out to you by quoting you-
"King even told people at the beginning that the ending may not be what you want, but as the man telling the story, it was the ending that was RIGHT."

"King even told people at the beginning"

The main point the unhappy ME3ers are making is that BioWare did NOT tell people at the beginning that they were abandoning the multiple endings in favor of changing the events leading up to the ending and reducing the ultimate choices to three. Instead they kept up the fiction of up to 16 completely different endings...right up to and including Release day.

Imagine making a piece of Art. You tell everybody that it's a portrait of Angelina Jolie naked, painted with gold flakes and angel tears. You promise that there's nothing on the canvas except for that portrait. BUT! You cover the canvas and refuse to show anyone the portrait unless they buy the painting.

So a buyer believes the Artist. They buy the portrait. They take it home and unwrap it.

Yes, there's naked Jolie. Gold paint. Angel tears.

Except there's also a ball-print where the Artist dipped their nuts in red paint and tea bagged the canvas, placed on the top right corner.

Art, yes. 99% awesome? Yes. Did the Artist lie when describing the Art before it was sold?

Yes, and it has no bearing on Artistic Integrity at all.

[Ninja Mage]

We should not apologize for this hot mess

[kotli]

nedpepper wrote...

The point most of you seem to be missing? You are treating Mass Effect 3 as if it were a faulty can opener and you want a refund.

Art doesn't work that. Never has. When art becomes a consumer product, you can have an opinion, you can express disappointment, but what right do you have to tell them to change their story? That's the entitlement. You got a functioning game. (For the most part....facial import not cool, but they'r fixing it). You actually got a really well made game. You just didn't like the ending.

Should Damon Lindeloff create a new ending to Lost?

Should Stephen King write a new ending to The Dark Tower?

Should George Lucas go in and make changes year after year to Star Wars? (Wait, don't answer that.)

Maybe the ending sucks. It happens. But you are owed nothing. The fact that they are willing to even discuss changing the ending? That's being kind. And, in my opinion, also not having the guts to stand up to your vision. At least the Lost creators stand up for their polarizing ending. King even told people at the beginning that the ending may not be what you want, but as the man telling the story, it was the ending that was RIGHT. I'm a firm believer in sticking to your guns. Bioware chose to go this route. I don't understand why they would cave in now....

Then again, maybe they're afraid they won't sell anymore can openers....

Well if Lost/the Dark Tower ended in such a big mess that it raised questions over the whole series, and made zero sense what for ever and contridiced its self. Then yes something would need to be done about it unless Damon Lindeloff/Stephen King plan on retiring, as I doubt anyone would bother with there next product.

As for George Lucas at lest his Starwars films still make sense despite being a bit of a mess in places.

BOT: Apologize for what? All we want is what we where told we where going to get by Bioware that is an ending with differnces depending on choices we maded from that start of ME 1, and for the ****y ending to make some kind of sense based on entrie ME story before the ending. If any apology is given it should be by Bioware for leading us on with lies.

Though of cause if anyone went over baord and treatened to hurt someone then yes they should apologize.

Modifié par kotli, 26 mars 2012 - 01:33 .

[Elhanan]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

That is hilariously contradictory. The community has every right to request change to a franchise they love, to call upon their right of "freedom of expression" as you put it; insinuating that freedom of expression is exclusive only to writers. No one is holding a damned gun to Bioware's head; they have every right to say "**** off". The day consumers cannot express their opinions and desires will be a grave day for Capitalism. 

On top of this; the ending is not "art". It is fundamentally flawed in it's very design. It completely puts aside any form of logic, basically making it impossible to choose an option that makes some form of sense to the player. The ending is a literary disaster; contradicting itself at every turn and discarding themes that have been built upon for three games.

But like i said, Bioware has every right to say "No" to the fanbase. It will be an objective detriment to the franchise, but they have that right. It is them and only them that have made a decision to revise the ending. 

No; the consumer has the right to an opinion, and the right to complain. They do not have the right to Demand anything, which is exactly what some of these movements are doing.

Some have been civil, and some have been imaganitive in trying to persuade Bioware to fix the game, and I applaud these methods even if I disagree about the ending. But to those that continually harp, whine, howl, etc and demand change, then perhaps the one that is needed lies with the Player; not Bioware.

And simply because someone believes there is flaw in the design does not make the art less so; simply one opinion which is worth no more or less than another. And I believe every Persian rug has a purposeful flaw, and they are considered masterful designs by many; artisans by trade.

[Vesji]

No.