509 réponses à ce sujet

[da mighty rEAper]

You know what, screw the 16 different endings, i dont care anymore for that childishness, i played all 3 games and seeing how it all ends like this, im more worried for mass effect universe, they just need to alter/add/redo the content to give the trilogy ending/answers and closure it deserves, to tie up loose nds, for the sake of future mass effect games/books

[Shad0wOGRE]

No, they don't deserve an apology. But if they actually provide the endings they promised I will thank them for doing the right thing.

[Rogue Unit]

Is BioWare going to ever apologize for their lies and **** ups?

[Tonymac]

I can apologize for my attitude.  Nerdraging helps no one.

I have previously stated what I desire, and we will see if it can happen.  The rest is up to them.

So yes - I apologize for being rude, and out of line.  There is no call for indecency, or raging.  I know I am better than that.

Modifié par Tonymac, 28 mars 2012 - 12:45 .

[Joy Divison]

Why do people keep insisting that those who were highly put off by the game, for whatever reason, are WRONG?

[Overule]

You'd have to be pathologically insane to feel compelled to apologize to a company for telling them you didn't find their product satisfactory.

Seriously, what are you people doing with your lives..?

[Star]

Zaasz wrote...

Not everyone is going to agree, but I personally found that the entirety of the game was well above average, beyond that actually. I agree that Mass Effect is our first true video game "epic" but I also think there could be some more closure as well. This article from GGTL is kinda long, but it sums up a lot of the criticisms and calls into question much of the unnecessary hate BioWare has been receiving.

http://www.gamersgui...efront-and.html

What do you all think? Was it really necessary to attack BioWare personally for something that isn't even THAT bad? Yeah, I think the endings could have answered a bit more and maybe we could have seen more from the war assets in the final battle, but overall I was intrigued by the end.

Apology?  While there has been inappropriate and rude behavior, many of the comments I've seen have been made civilly.  Certainly Bioware/EA would like you to believe we're all whiny and rude but that's a generalization.  Pointing fingers is one of the basic steps of a good PR defense - deflects the issue from the corporation's responsiility to the consumer.  Those who've engaged with Bioware rudely should apologize for their behavior but not necessarily for their message.  This is a commercial product and consumers have every right to complain about a commercial product.  And before anyone begins that tired old song about artistic freedom and artists not having to change anything, I'd just like to point out that Shakespeare, Mozart, Puccini and many many other artists changed their finished works based upon audience response.  Commerial art is impacted by the response of the sponsor or purchaser.  Being a commerical product doesn't take away from the artist's enjoyment of the creation but it does mean that to sell, the product needs to be something the consumer likes/wants. 

So no, I don't think we owe Bioware an apology.  Perhaps they need to come up with a way to gather and use customer feedback earlier on in their process just as movie directors/producers test films ....

Modifié par Star58, 26 mars 2012 - 02:20 .

[NedPepper]

Lincoln MuaDib wrote...

Nedpepper, if I could point something out to you by quoting you-
"King even told people at the beginning that the ending may not be what you want, but as the man telling the story, it was the ending that was RIGHT."

"King even told people at the beginning"

The main point the unhappy ME3ers are making is that BioWare did NOT tell people at the beginning that they were abandoning the multiple endings in favor of changing the events leading up to the ending and reducing the ultimate choices to three. Instead they kept up the fiction of up to 16 completely different endings...right up to and including Release day.

Imagine making a piece of Art. You tell everybody that it's a portrait of Angelina Jolie naked, painted with gold flakes and angel tears. You promise that there's nothing on the canvas except for that portrait. BUT! You cover the canvas and refuse to show anyone the portrait unless they buy the painting.

So a buyer believes the Artist. They buy the portrait. They take it home and unwrap it.

Yes, there's naked Jolie. Gold paint. Angel tears.

Except there's also a ball-print where the Artist dipped their nuts in red paint and tea bagged the canvas, placed on the top right corner.

Art, yes. 99% awesome? Yes. Did the Artist lie when describing the Art before it was sold?

Yes, and it has no bearing on Artistic Integrity at all.

It's still very subjective.  I'm not sure that metaphor works.  I honestly don't understand "Bioware told us this" argument.  I don't remember them saying anything about the the final 10 minutes of the game.  I don't remember them promising anything other than "your choices will matter in the game."  Take for what you will.  Wrex is either there or he's not.  The Rachni are there or they are not.  The game DOES play very differently as a whole depending on your choices. 

And even IF you think the ending is a "teabag on a painting of a nude Jolie"....it's THE ending they chose to go with, for good or ill.  And the mess of changing it will completely make any artistic merit go by the wayside.  Because King WOULD NEVER remake the ending of the Dark Tower series.  It was the story that he claimed was told through him.  It was HIS story.  The reader can be disappointed, but the reader DID NOT CREATE IT.  And try to argue with Lindeloff about Lost and see where that gets you.

And I need to see CONCRETE examples that Bioware "deceived" it's audience on purpose.  Because it sounds like entitled hyperbole to me.

[ShadowHawk141]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Is BioWare going to ever apologize for their lies and **** ups?

Now that'll be the day !!

If I had used personal attacks on Bioware I would,ve apologized, but I haven't so I won't.
There is no excuse for what they did imho.

[JasonDaPsycho]

I didn't attack them personally. I'm just holding them accountable for what they promised.

[BeefoTheBold]

**** that! Bioware should apologize to us. They already had their mulligan with DA2. Some people were calling for apologies then, but I wasn't one of them.

I basically said that the game was beneath their standards, slapshot, and rushed. I criticized the self-serving spin interview that Mike Laidlaw did and the "look at the griffens now buy our DLC" post here on the forums.

But I didn't feel an apology was owed.

For that ending to this series? Yeah, we deserve an apology. Not some insulting message from the good doctor saying, "We're sorry you're upset because you're too stupid to understand our genius unlike all of these critic scores that say we're completely awesome."

(Also, ignore the conflict of interest of having a writer for one of those critic sites IN THE DAMNED GAME.)

[sOUZUKEN]

Why should we? They're the ones who promised us this and that and they are the ones that fell short of their promises. It's either really horrible advertising or they lied to us. I'm inclined on the latter.

[NICKjnp]

A company is not an individual. It is a corporate entity designed to produce a product. We are the consumers of that product. We were promised something and Bioware failed to deliver it. As consumers we are angry about this and are making our opinions known that we don't like a key portion of the product we were given because we were misled before making a purchase. So I'm not going to "apologize" to a company. I paid for a product with the expectation that there would be 16 vastly different endings and Bioware failed to deliver it. If anything Bioware should a apologize to me and all the other angry fans instead of all the PR double talk that has been coming from them.

[ReshyShira]

Zaasz wrote...

Not everyone is going to agree, but I personally found that the entirety of the game was well above average, beyond that actually. I agree that Mass Effect is our first true video game "epic" but I also think there could be some more closure as well. This article from GGTL is kinda long, but it sums up a lot of the criticisms and calls into question much of the unnecessary hate BioWare has been receiving.

http://www.gamersgui...efront-and.html

What do you all think? Was it really necessary to attack BioWare personally for something that isn't even THAT bad? Yeah, I think the endings could have answered a bit more and maybe we could have seen more from the war assets in the final battle, but overall I was intrigued by the end.

I do not forgive or make consessions with those who failed to deliver a complete and satisfying product.

[78stonewobble]

nedpepper wrote...

The point most of you seem to be missing? You are treating Mass Effect 3 as if it were a faulty can opener and you want a refund.

Art doesn't work that. Never has. When art becomes a consumer product, you can have an opinion, you can express disappointment, but what right do you have to tell them to change their story? That's the entitlement. You got a functioning game. (For the most part....facial import not cool, but they'r fixing it). You actually got a really well made game. You just didn't like the ending.

Should Damon Lindeloff create a new ending to Lost?

Should Stephen King write a new ending to The Dark Tower?

Should George Lucas go in and make changes year after year to Star Wars? (Wait, don't answer that.)

Maybe the ending sucks. It happens. But you are owed nothing. The fact that they are willing to even discuss changing the ending? That's being kind. And, in my opinion, also not having the guts to stand up to your vision. At least the Lost creators stand up for their polarizing ending. King even told people at the beginning that the ending may not be what you want, but as the man telling the story, it was the ending that was RIGHT. I'm a firm believer in sticking to your guns. Bioware chose to go this route. I don't understand why they would cave in now....

Then again, maybe they're afraid they won't sell anymore can openers....

You are assuming that the artpiece or product is forever finished once it's gone gold ( in the case of software ).

That is not allways the case.

Eg. you could view a "changed ending me3" as the cooperative artpiece / product of the developer and the community. 

Like eg. music gets resampled, mixed or reinterpreted by new artists.

Heck I like the movie aliens. The theatrical version would be high on my list of fav movies but I do prefer MY version of it with dual sentry guns of death (lot's of art needs those). I like my version of it and that does not prevent others from preferring the theatrical one.

[LordDeimos4]

Embrosil wrote...

If you go to a restaurant, have a wonderful meal but the dessert makes you vomit, will you also apologize? I do not think so.

Lol, so much truth in this!

[NedPepper]

kotli wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

The point most of you seem to be missing? You are treating Mass Effect 3 as if it were a faulty can opener and you want a refund.

Art doesn't work that. Never has. When art becomes a consumer product, you can have an opinion, you can express disappointment, but what right do you have to tell them to change their story? That's the entitlement. You got a functioning game. (For the most part....facial import not cool, but they'r fixing it). You actually got a really well made game. You just didn't like the ending.

Should Damon Lindeloff create a new ending to Lost?

Should Stephen King write a new ending to The Dark Tower?

Should George Lucas go in and make changes year after year to Star Wars? (Wait, don't answer that.)

Maybe the ending sucks. It happens. But you are owed nothing. The fact that they are willing to even discuss changing the ending? That's being kind. And, in my opinion, also not having the guts to stand up to your vision. At least the Lost creators stand up for their polarizing ending. King even told people at the beginning that the ending may not be what you want, but as the man telling the story, it was the ending that was RIGHT. I'm a firm believer in sticking to your guns. Bioware chose to go this route. I don't understand why they would cave in now....

Then again, maybe they're afraid they won't sell anymore can openers....

Well if Lost/the Dark Tower ended in such a big mess that it raised questions over the whole series, and made zero sense what for ever and contridiced its self. Then yes something would need to be done about it unless Damon Lindeloff/Stephen King plan on retiring, as I doubt anyone would bother with there next product.

As for George Lucas at lest his Starwars films still make sense despite being a bit of a mess in places.

No, fans either got over it or they didn't.  King has a new Dark Tower book coming out that takes place between two of the others.  He's still working and people, once they realized they were overreacting, realized they still loved the Dark Tower series. 

And George Lucas is a prime example of what happens when you can't leave your artistic vision alone...except it's the reverse with Lucas.  The fans want him to stop.  Spielberg recently came out and said one of his biggest regrets was going back and messing with ET.  When the product is finished, for good or ill, it's finished. 

The only question I'll raise when it comes to Bioware is the DLC.  With DLC, it's almost as if they want to serialize their stories. Which seemed to be the plan for Dragon Age 2 until this community sodomized it and Bioware nixed everything Dragon Age 2 related.  I'm not sure how DLC will work with Mass Effect 3 (perhaps adding "chapters" like retaking Omega that exist within the story, not after), but personally, I don't want any post ending DLC involving Shepard's fight with the Reapers.  Because in that case, THAT would be going against what they said they were going to do.  THAT would be nickel and diming the audience.

[BeefoTheBold]

Yuri_ii wrote...

 It is funny... 
Bioware produced with Mass Effect an epic game and now they are receiving hate etc for some "wrong" decisions.

The problem is simple: The game was simply too good ^^

Oh yeah. THAT'S the problem.

[Stigweird85]

it depends on the outcome of the DLC.

Personally I have never understood the level of hatred and bile that Bioware have generated with the endings.

There are issues and I accept that but some people have gone to extremes about it. For example the numerous threads about returning the game for a refund. That one guy who went to the FTC and the few people I have seen on the BSN claiming the endings resulted in them having to seek medical attention.

I trust Bioware, I will buy their next product and the one after that.

[lazuli]

Sleek wrote...

And we should have been able to use Legion !!!

And Miranda.  And Jacob.  And Wrex.  And Grunt.  And Kasumi.  And Zaeed.  And Jack.

I know it's useless at this point, but I really wish more squadmates had been mandatory/unkillable in ME2.  Maybe then we'd get more carry-over between games.

[dragoneggandspam]

You're just giving your opinion about a game...nothing wrong with that. As long as it's constructive on what you liked and didn't like there's nothing to be sorry about. I think people who are extremely negative/trolling/or just flat out mean to the hard-working guys and gals that worked on this game should just go away rather than do anything else imo. I don't mind the ending because Bioware has got some awesome dlc planned. I just know it. Lair of the shadow broker was one of my favorite parts of ME2....so...I got good feelings.

[Metalunatic]

There seem to be many Bioware apologists around now that they ''announced'' that they're working on ending content. Bioware hasn't done anything about it yet so don't get your hopes up for something that might not even happen and if something does get released it might not be what we expect.

[durasteel]

I have not made personal attacks, and I have always been very clear that the only reason that the crap ending matters is because the rest of the game--and trilogy--are so good and so engaging.

I have been, I think, fair and honest. The Mass Effect designers screwed up with this ending, and I am very willing to give them an opportunity to make it right. I offered my feedback. I am waiting patiently, and I will not review the game until it is complete with the new ending content.

I am not apologizing for anything.

[NedPepper]

78stonewobble wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

The point most of you seem to be missing? You are treating Mass Effect 3 as if it were a faulty can opener and you want a refund.

Art doesn't work that. Never has. When art becomes a consumer product, you can have an opinion, you can express disappointment, but what right do you have to tell them to change their story? That's the entitlement. You got a functioning game. (For the most part....facial import not cool, but they'r fixing it). You actually got a really well made game. You just didn't like the ending.

Should Damon Lindeloff create a new ending to Lost?

Should Stephen King write a new ending to The Dark Tower?

Should George Lucas go in and make changes year after year to Star Wars? (Wait, don't answer that.)

Maybe the ending sucks. It happens. But you are owed nothing. The fact that they are willing to even discuss changing the ending? That's being kind. And, in my opinion, also not having the guts to stand up to your vision. At least the Lost creators stand up for their polarizing ending. King even told people at the beginning that the ending may not be what you want, but as the man telling the story, it was the ending that was RIGHT. I'm a firm believer in sticking to your guns. Bioware chose to go this route. I don't understand why they would cave in now....

Then again, maybe they're afraid they won't sell anymore can openers....

You are assuming that the artpiece or product is forever finished once it's gone gold ( in the case of software ).

That is not allways the case.

Eg. you could view a "changed ending me3" as the cooperative artpiece / product of the developer and the community. 

Like eg. music gets resampled, mixed or reinterpreted by new artists.

Heck I like the movie aliens. The theatrical version would be high on my list of fav movies but I do prefer MY version of it with dual sentry guns of death (lot's of art needs those). I like my version of it and that does not prevent others from preferring the theatrical one.

Well, we all have our opinions.  I happen to think taking our the sentry guns for the theatrical release was smart.  Adding it back in really didn't do anything but make the Aliens look stupid.  When I watch that version, I think of it as an alternate universe.  Ripley does not have a daughter. 

Look at the deleted scene at the end of the original Alien where Ripley finds Dallas.  If you put it back in,  the entire series falls apart.  That's why it's a DELETED scene.  A little oddity to ponder.