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Should we apologize to BioWare?


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#151
TheChris92

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nedpepper wrote...
I'm not saying there are not issues at a corporate level.  EA and Bioware do not seem to be a good fit and it shows.  And I'm not even saying you don't have a right to be disappointed.  That's your preference.  What am I saying is that the fans are not owed anything more than what they got.  I actually find the idea that they are going to SELL new endings to be disappointing.  You want to buy a non canon ending to a finished game just to feel better about it?  There's something depressingly cynical about that.

I'd rather just accept that this was their vision and I had a great time enjoying the journey.  Endings do not make up the totality of an experience.  It's like saying someone dying at the end of their long life depresses you and takes away all the happy memories you had of them.   It doesn't.  And creating the perfect ending to any beloved series is one the most challenging aspects a writer has to deal with.  George RR Martin keeps talking about his giant fear of messing up Game of Thrones.  You ever think maybe that's why he's so scared to end it or even work towards an ending?  Fan expectations can sometimes take on a life of their own.  It is what it is.  I just think people need some perspective here.

And because of the fact that the original script was leaked they chose to scrap the whole original idea, and make up something else. That indicates that what they have brought us wasn't their vision all along, since it has changed because of a trivial concern. Lots of games gets leaked before their time, and it was unfortunate that it was exposed to the public. No, the endings do not make up for the whole experience, but they are a part of the necessary components to finish the whole lot of it. The ending could sort of be compared to that of a domino brick, if you pull it out then the whole thing will collapse. The destination is just as important as the journey. 

I didn't read the leaked draft of the script.  I don't enjoy spoiling a story meant to be played and seen.

Right, and thus they changed it from what it was original supposed to be. You don't even have to read the script, you could always just look at "Final Hours of Mass Effect 3" app that sort of elaborates on all of the things that were scrapped in the game. I get the feeling you've beaten the game already, so if you feel like it you could always ask around as some people will probably have the thing lying around. 

And how many times do you walk into a movie or pick up a book with expectations that don't live up to the hype.  Look at most movie trailers.  Half the time, studios try and market a movie in ways that completely contradict what the director was intending.


All the time my good sir. I do not judge a movie based on the marketing. I didn't with Dragon Age Origins and the Manson music and I didn't start doing it now. I chose to play the game, and judge it for what it is. It turned out to be completely different from what I've expected. It was an amazing experience. Let me be clear that I had no high expectations for this game, I didn't think after Mass Effect 2 that the third game would be anything special for me. But I still wanted to finish the story. I wanted an ending with closure equal to that we got in Dragon Age Origins. We got the choice to survive, but at a great cost, and it isn't what some of you would a "Disney" ending either. Lots of people had to die in order to win the war against the Darkspawn, and the same counts for Mass Effect 3. Lots of people will die, so there is no way it can end completely happy. But it can end with a hopeful ending. The main difference here is that Mass Effect is not really a novel or a movie. It's an interactive game, where the plot can be moved in all sorts of directions. The reader don't get to decide in which direction the plot  of a book or a movie is supposed to go. The script and the direction is already set in stone. They are not an interactive experience like Mass Effect. It is based upon the choices of the player, so why shouldn't these choices reflect on how the trilogy should end. It's about having a choice here, and the problem is that the endings we got in ME3 does not essentially offer us a choice. I played this game with no high expectations, and I never payed attention to the marketing as I do not judge the game based on what I've seen in trailers. It surprised me, however, when I reached the end all of it got turned up-side down.

You want to buy a non canon ending to a finished game just to feel better about it?  There's something depressingly cynical about that.

I'm pretty sure the people who played Fallout 3 doesn't agree with you, but I might be wrong. The developers of the Witcher seems to willing enough to add closure to their game. Free of charge. I'm not even saying that I want to pay for DLC, in order to make myself feel better. I'm saying that I would appreciate some closure on what exactly happened to my companions, the worlds I saved, the people I helped, an epilogue like in Origins but more interactive since I do no think a wall of text would suit Mass Effect. I'm not asking for a compensation here, I'm asking for some clarity. I'm asking for some closure, I don't see what is wrong with that
It's interesting how you should mention a "non-canon ending" as far as I can understand from these endings I don't see how they are being consistent with the overall lore, the so called "canon" of Mass Effect. We can probably argue forever about this, so if that's what you want then let's us continue in a PM.

Modifié par TheChris92, 26 mars 2012 - 02:59 .


#152
OhoniX

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if it wasn`t THAT bad, reasonable people wouldnt complain about it... dont u think so??


Either the evidence disagrees with you, or you're just making the point that there are a LOT of unreasonable people around here. I would agree with the latter point.

#153
alx119

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Not at all, people can criticize all they want. BioWare is a business, and as a business is formed by adults, if they can't take the criticism, it doesn't say much of them.

If there's critiques is because they've done something wrong. No matter how you try to say otherwise, people will see it as how they see it, in this case something BAD. You can try to justify the ending all you want, but the fact is that a lot of people is upset about them, undeniable fact.

And they can spill their opinion about it.

And don't take me wrong, I don't condone personal attacks, but a critique to the team, to "BioWare" label is nothing wrong, especially when justified with rational arguments.

#154
Mlaar

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Zaasz wrote...
Should we apologize to BioWare?

 Do you feel you need to?

I have purchased a game in the belief that its for my entertainment and for the most part that is what was offered the fact is the endings ruined that entertainment and I couldnt know that till completion so now I can respectfully leave my comments on state of the game. so No I wouldnt apologize..

Contary to popular belief people like an ending to not be so dismal, through 3 games ive made actions honourable and some not so legit and now I feel they have meant nothing, the end is a predetermined light show.
For all the hard work designers put into the game for all the many hours gamers have spent projecting their imagination on the universe is wasted time

Ive cured the genophage yaaa Ive brokered a shakey alliance between quarian and geth then shucks ive screwed the universe reapers win yaa me... Ive a screwed universe, Ive isolated every race out thier stranded far from homeworlds, reapers win yaa me.. etc etc

I am left with no feelings of accomplishment, I am left on a low note, for god knows how many days weeks months ive put into the game all I feel is let down.

So why should I apologize... didnt realize I need to spend £50 these days to be kicked in the head and then I apologize for them doing it even after I said I didnt feel good!!

Modifié par Mlaar, 26 mars 2012 - 03:09 .


#155
durasteel

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A point that I think needs to be made is that the ending that BioWare announced in April will become "canon" and replace the ending "on the disk." I think everyone understands that the "original" ending was rushed and seriously flawed, and doesn't reflect the typical standard of care and quality for which BioWare has become famous.

Any games, books, comics, etc. that are set after ME3 will take the new ending into full account, and any films made of ME3's story will definitely use the "good" ending instead of the original crap ending. So if you feel like you have to cling to the original ending for some reason, be prepared to be pretty much alone in that.

#156
Joy Divison

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Why do people keep insisting that those who were highly put off by the game, for whatever reason, are WRONG?


If you'd pay attention, the OP isn't saying that.

The OP is saying attacking Bioware is wrong.


Yes the OP is.

Was it really necessary to attack BioWare personally for something that isn't even THAT bad?



#157
Siansonea

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I don't think I've personally crossed the line. I've given my feedback about the game, some of which is negative, but I never resorted to personal attacks on BioWare personnel or anything like that. I think people who did engage in such behavior should apologize, it's uncalled for. Complain about the aspects of the game you dislike, but keep it "professional", I say.

#158
78stonewobble

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nedpepper wrote...
Well, we all have our opinions.  I happen to think taking our the sentry guns for the theatrical release was smart.  Adding it back in really didn't do anything but make the Aliens look stupid.  When I watch that version, I think of it as an alternate universe.  Ripley does not have a daughter. 

Look at the deleted scene at the end of the original Alien where Ripley finds Dallas.  If you put it back in,  the entire series falls apart.  That's why it's a DELETED scene.  A little oddity to ponder.


Yeah I tend to view them semi detached (alternate universes) as well.

Well my point was more that not all change or more choice is bad.

I mean... If you're gonna create something but it has to look exactly like xyz to tell zyx thing. Then your artpiece really should come with a very specific and detailed manual of how to interpret it in the one correct way.

If, on the other hand, you want to create something that alot of people (the most?) will enjoy in as many individual ways as possible. Then I think diversity and options fit right in there.

There is offcourse all kinds of middleground but I hope my point came across. :)

#159
PaddlePop

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Embrosil wrote...

If you go to a restaurant, have a wonderful meal but the dessert makes you vomit, will you also apologize? I do not think so.



#160
BloodyFleelancer

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No we shouldnt , thay made everything great , who wrote those ending is full of sht

#161
NedPepper

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durasteel wrote...

A point that I think needs to be made is that the ending that BioWare announced in April will become "canon" and replace the ending "on the disk." I think everyone understands that the "original" ending was rushed and seriously flawed, and doesn't reflect the typical standard of care and quality for which BioWare has become famous.

Any games, books, comics, etc. that are set after ME3 will take the new ending into full account, and any films made of ME3's story will definitely use the "good" ending instead of the original crap ending. So if you feel like you have to cling to the original ending for some reason, be prepared to be pretty much alone in that.



And if people hate that ending?  Do they make another one?  Do they just keep making an ending until a general consensus on a message board is met?

I mean, if that's what they want to do....if that will make people happy...okay.  But, and this is just my opinion....I think it's kind of spineless.   And I'm not so sure I want to keep paying for an updated ending. But, again, to each their own.  Image IPB

#162
PaddlePop

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Only if they apologised first...

#163
mbr.to

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i rly like this article thx for the link.
there is too much hatred about the ending.
the mass effect trilogy is by far the best i have ever played and i dont think there is much competition for bioware.

#164
greywardencommander

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those who personally attacked individuals on twitter telling them to f- off etc were out of line so I think if you mean people like that who have done that - Yes.

Put it this way you get food poisoning from a restaurant you then proceed to find everyone related to that restaurant such as the waitors who had nothing to do with the food (such as the composers of the music in Bioware's case) and stalk them and insult them in 100 different ways - uncalled for even if you have a genuine reason to be angry.

Questioning the endings in their current form? Nope no apology needed if it's not personal e.g. 'Bioware the company's vision of the ending just didn't transate well' 'Casey Hudson the executive producer and Mac Walters the writer dropped the ball' it's not personal it's professional capacity

That I think is what Ray meant in his statement. There's a difference between saying you don't like the endings in a polite and (if you expand on it) constructive way and just spewing a bunch of unintelligble tripe at everyone on twitter and facebook that amounts to nothing more than a big middle finger and f- off and might as well have just been that.

So I think you are right in some regards
Apology to Bioware the company and the professional capacity of the people there - no because endings as they are lack the same quality as the rest of the series (overall)

Apology for personal attacks that are nothing more than vicious verbal spew at anyone even vaguely related to the company (such as composers or even the VA's who had nothing to do with the endings)- yes

#165
Squallypo

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Embrosil wrote...

If you go to a restaurant, have a wonderful meal but the dessert makes you vomit, will you also apologize? I do not think so.


nice stuff i agree^_^

#166
78stonewobble

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greywardencommander wrote...

those who personally attacked individuals on twitter telling them to f- off etc were out of line so I think if you mean people like that who have done that - Yes.


Can't we chalk those up as crazy people?

#167
CroGamer002

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...


OP, are you serious?

#168
Getorex

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nedpepper wrote...

durasteel wrote...

A point that I think needs to be made is that the ending that BioWare announced in April will become "canon" and replace the ending "on the disk." I think everyone understands that the "original" ending was rushed and seriously flawed, and doesn't reflect the typical standard of care and quality for which BioWare has become famous.

Any games, books, comics, etc. that are set after ME3 will take the new ending into full account, and any films made of ME3's story will definitely use the "good" ending instead of the original crap ending. So if you feel like you have to cling to the original ending for some reason, be prepared to be pretty much alone in that.



And if people hate that ending?  Do they make another one?  Do they just keep making an ending until a general consensus on a message board is met?

I mean, if that's what they want to do....if that will make people happy...okay.  But, and this is just my opinion....I think it's kind of spineless.   And I'm not so sure I want to keep paying for an updated ending. But, again, to each their own.  Image IPB


*COUGH* Movies and test audiences cause changed endings ALL THE TIME * COUGH*

#169
BeefoTheBold

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Mesina2 wrote...

...


OP, are you serious?


Helping you out.



Always works better with a Youtube link. :innocent:

#170
edwardhazelden

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If you go to a restaurant, have a wonderful meal but the dessert makes you vomit, will you also apologize? I do not think so.

I don't know what restaurant you go to but the ones I visit don't take 40 hours of time to eat...

The ending is split between people who like to make up their own endings through their own mind such as the indoc theory or people who are just raging because they need to have Bioware think for them. 10 minutes should not make or break a game! There have been much worse games than mass effect 3 with undeniably bad endings yet do those developers have to be put through all of this crap? No! An appology should be the least we can do.

Modifié par edwardhazelden, 26 mars 2012 - 03:38 .


#171
NedPepper

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Getorex wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

durasteel wrote...

A point that I think needs to be made is that the ending that BioWare announced in April will become "canon" and replace the ending "on the disk." I think everyone understands that the "original" ending was rushed and seriously flawed, and doesn't reflect the typical standard of care and quality for which BioWare has become famous.

Any games, books, comics, etc. that are set after ME3 will take the new ending into full account, and any films made of ME3's story will definitely use the "good" ending instead of the original crap ending. So if you feel like you have to cling to the original ending for some reason, be prepared to be pretty much alone in that.



And if people hate that ending?  Do they make another one?  Do they just keep making an ending until a general consensus on a message board is met?

I mean, if that's what they want to do....if that will make people happy...okay.  But, and this is just my opinion....I think it's kind of spineless.   And I'm not so sure I want to keep paying for an updated ending. But, again, to each their own.  Image IPB


*COUGH* Movies and test audiences cause changed endings ALL THE TIME * COUGH*



BEFORE they are released to the public as a finished product.  There's a huge difference here.  That's essentially QA's job for a video game.  And demos I suppose.

#172
Capitan E.O

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personally I love the ME series....haven't finished the 3rd game yet (life kind of gets in the way sometimes). but Bioware should learn to stand up to what they announced not long ago.
reminder: they said that every choice you make will effect the ending of the game, I think they said something like - multiple endings.
besides after what they did in ME2 (which was brilliant) they should have just kept going and not gone backwards.
I can just say that after buying the DA2 game which was a big let down I wasn't sure I would buy ME3 but decided that as this was my favorite series I would go ahead and give it a chance.
now my problem with all the haters out there is that I ran into a lot of posts on how the ME3 game is **** and so on, but up until now I find it as good as the other 2 games, if the ending is really that bad then Bioware should go back to the drawing board and create a DLC for a new ending (free of course) otherwise they will be just like DICE which created a **** of a game that doesn't work half of the time, I bought BF3 and it's a great game WHEN IT WORKS.
please bioware don't go down the same lane that DICE did.

#173
Heather Cline

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No. Bioware did this to themselves. They don't deserve an apology. It is our right as consumers and customers to complain and give a company hell for a product that did not live up to the advertisement. It is actually illegal to sell a product that is incomplete and also does not match up to the advertisement.

So I'm not apologizing to Bioware. I've never once insulted a single person at Bioware, nor have I cursed or sworn directly at them. I've called ME3 a crap game sure, but that's in regards to the game.

If Bioware wants an apology from me they should fix the entire game first. The auto-dialogue problems in story and RPG mode, the photoshopped image of Tali, the endings. So until they apologize to us gamers as a whole and fix the game they deserve nothing.

Modifié par Heather Cline, 26 mars 2012 - 03:43 .


#174
Ael

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Surely OP you jest.

As some reviewers have said and I agree the game was very good till the Harbinger beam then they spat all over the rest of the trilogy

With space magic and the copy and pasted ending they borrowed from another game

#175
nevar00

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**** that, there's a list out there of lies we were told. If anything Bioware should be apologizing to us.

And it is THAT bad. The ending makes use of dues ex machinas, has nothing to do with our choices, destroys their own franchise and continuity, has gaping plot holes, and is an abomination that needs to be retconed and buried underneath those Atari E.T. cartridges out in the desert. It IS THAT BAD.