240 réponses à ce sujet

[Slayer299]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Mcjon01 wrote...

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Mcjon01 wrote...

Sovereign didn't use the conduit, it was Saren and a small force of Geth. Sovereign approached the Citadel through the normal relay system, at the head of the Geth fleet.

Source?

The end of Mass Effect, and eyes. Did you not watch any of the cinematics?

Never saw him enter a Mass Relay.

But you saw him exit the one in front of the Citadel and since its "Fact" that the Conduit could *only* connect with the other one inside the Citadel

[SpiderFan1217]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

It's cool guys. You don't think it's feesable. I can live with that. Maybe they're gonna go the Star Wars route and just have the major stories take place a thousand years apart.

Repost guys. I'm good. You don't like my theory.

[sth128]

Jamie9 wrote...

Wouldn't Sovereign have too high a mass to use the Conduit anyway? I assume that is why the Mass Relays are so big. Yes I know size does not equal mass, but it would be relative right? The Conduit wouldn't be able to transport things the same size as the Mass Relays could.

That's beside the point. Read my post above. If Sovereign had used the Conduit, he would have EMERGED FROM INSIDE THE CITADEL. It would be like driving your car into a house! At FTL speeds!

It would have destroyed Sovereign, Saren, the Citadel, and probably caused a supernova (from Citadel exploding) that took the Turian fleet with it.

If Sovereign had done that, the rest of the Reapers would have been so ashamed by the stupidity of one of its own that they would have said to each other "Yeah, I don't think we can reap this cycle, Shepard would just laugh his ass off at anything we say".

[Jamie9]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

It's cool guys. You don't think it's feesable. I can live with that. Maybe they're gonna go the Star Wars route and just have the major stories take place a thousand years apart.

Repost guys. I'm good. You don't like my theory.

Nobody said that.

We're just discussing it and playing devil's advocate. If a theory can't stand up to criticism, it's not a very solid one.

[FatalX7.0]

golyoscsapagy wrote...

 

Slayer299 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...
We don't. In fact we're told the opposite. The gramps seems to think the kid can visit space within his lifetime.

No, gramps is just saying what every *other* grandparent/parent/etc says to a child when they're putting off answering a question they don't want to right then. "one day, my sweet", does not mean when the child grows up, especially not when you listen to the rest of the conversation where he tells the kid that every planet 'could have different forms of life', emphasis on *could*, not does. That says that humanity does not go off-planet, has not gone off-planet and it is only a far off idea, not a present or near reality. 

 
I think you are trying to imply something which wasn't said per se. The dialog as follows:

'When can I go to the stars?'
'One day my sweet'
'What will be there?'
'Anything you can imagine, our galaxy has billions of stars. Each of those stars could have many worlds. Every world could be home to a different form of life.'

Nothing here implies that space travel is a long way away. If anything the question of When from the child implies that space travel is a possibility (note, (s)he would ask 'can I go to the stars?' if the only thing (s)he ever heard was a fable about shepard). Stargazes scrip can be interpreted if the stargazer himself is a space farer. If anyone he know how freaking huge our universe is and how long would it take to map all of it. That's why he generalizes to the kid because that's the most correct picture about how huge the task is and WHY do you want to explore the galaxy.

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Prior to the events of Arrival, however, Dr. Amanda Kenson
and her research team calculated that if a large enough mass impacts a
relay with enough force, the relay should not be able to withstand it.
The consequences of destroying a mass relay are immense: as a huge mass
effect engine manipulating massive quantities of energy, a relay could
produce an explosion of supernova proportions.

@first bold

Simply means that a Relay can physically break if a large enough object hits it.



@second bold

Should be obvious. It's Eezo core, it's Mass Effect engine is massive, when that energy is released, in any manner, boom, whole system dead.

Wrong. The only data you can gather from arrival is that if you smash a mass relay with a high-speed asteroid, it goes off uncontrollably.
For a really easy analogy from real life. What do you think would happen if you take an fission bomb, slap a brick of c4 on it and blow it up? Chances are high nothing (well, of course you would have a small explosion from the initial c4 and the charges in the bomb, but fission wouldn't happen).

So, for mass relays there is certanly a way to blow it up as a supernova (via Arrival method) but it doesn't imply it cannot be destroyed with less destructible means (like a fission bomb).

Until there is actual proof that the relays being destroyed in ME 3 doesn't destroy everything, this argument is fairly...pointless.

I'm not being dismissive, I understand that, maybe, with the space magic, it's not as destructive, but there is nothing that really says otherwise.

And you can still see giant explosions across the galaxy..

[Patchwork]

IIRC the asari/the council banned research into mass relays just as they banned researching the Keepers so re-building isn't going to be quick or easy especially given the limits of FTL.

Re-building the network doesn't seem feasible imo building a relay, getting it into place then rinse and repeat again and again just isn't logical. In the short term the focus would be on creating faster ships to ensure necessary trade.

As for communication while QEC isn't commonplace it definitely seems to be gaining popularity during ME3, setting up the Normandy's was Traynor's job prior to the invasion. It's likely that governments and militarises use them to communicate with each other but ye old mod seller down the road continued to use the comm boeys.

I have a hard time believing that ME's dark age is really a dark age, feels like it's being called that for dramatic effect. The closest I can think of is if we lost our current level of technology and found ourselves back in the Victorian age. A huge step back, everything would be much slower but it's not the dark ages.

[Jamie9]

sth128 wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

Wouldn't Sovereign have too high a mass to use the Conduit anyway? I assume that is why the Mass Relays are so big. Yes I know size does not equal mass, but it would be relative right? The Conduit wouldn't be able to transport things the same size as the Mass Relays could.

That's beside the point. Read my post above. If Sovereign had used the Conduit, he would have EMERGED FROM INSIDE THE CITADEL. It would be like driving your car into a house! At FTL speeds!

It would have destroyed Sovereign, Saren, the Citadel, and probably caused a supernova (from Citadel exploding) that took the Turian fleet with it.

If Sovereign had done that, the rest of the Reapers would have been so ashamed by the stupidity of one of its own that they would have said to each other "Yeah, I don't think we can reap this cycle, Shepard would just laugh his ass off at anything we say".

Hey, I already know Sovy used a Relay. He emerges from a Relay. I was just commenting on Mass Relays in general. Speculating on whether Sovereign could even use a Relay the size of the Conduit.

I know he didn't use it.

[Tleining]

Shaoken wrote...

The first one was a proof of concept; it could transport them from Illos to the Citadel. Next step is to put them into space. Then you work on making enough of them to connect all the different parts of space.

Worst comes to worse, you use the Mass Effect to shoot them into parts of space you can't use QE to communicate with or who don't have the resources to build them themselves. It'd be a massive undertaking, but it has been demonstrated to be possible.

even IF we accept that the Protheans should have been able to build their own full-sized Mass Relays. They still used the existing MR-Network to make it (travel to the Citadel, set up the Relay Monument, travel to Ilos, set up the Conduit). The Protheans were not able to make it without working Relays.

And Javik is a Warrior, so whatever knowledge the Protheans had was lost with them. (unless we find another Prothean Blueprint of MR's somewhere that's riddiculously easy to build)

And QE was only available to Humans (as far as we know). It wasn't spread throughout the galaxy.

[Mcjon01]

Wrong. The only data you can gather from arrival is that if you smash a mass relay with a high-speed asteroid, it goes off uncontrollably.

Any breach in the Mass Relay will do it, according to the codex. Though I agree that they probably intended the destruction in the ending to be harmless, due to the energy being used up to power the wave or whatever explanation you want to go with.

[Slayer299]

golyoscsapagy wrote...
I think you are trying to imply something which wasn't said per se. The dialog as follows:

'When can I go to the stars?'
'One day my sweet'
'What will be there?'
'Anything you can imagine, our galaxy has billions of stars. Each of those stars could have many worlds. Every world could be home to a different form of life.'

Nothing here implies that space travel is a long way away. If anything the question of When from the child implies that space travel is a possibility (note, (s)he would ask 'can I go to the stars?' if the only thing (s)he ever heard was a fable about shepard). Stargazes scrip can be interpreted if the stargazer himself is a space farer. If anyone he know how freaking huge our universe is and how long would it take to map all of it. That's why he generalizes to the kid because that's the most correct picture about how huge the task is and WHY do you want to explore the galaxy.

You're wrong here, grandpa isn't generalizing to find out "why" the boy wants to go into space. If he was able to travel already why say then that "each world *could*", not does. If you want to ask a young child a 'why' question, you ask them "why do you......?" If it was a ongoing task why so evasive instead of saying "when you're a grown-up/adult" you can goto the stars."

Somedays, maybe's and could are generalities that you use to avoid telling a child something.

Modifié par Slayer299, 26 mars 2012 - 02:10 .

[snakeboy86]

Damn, stopped the reapers, but ended up screwed anyway..

[FatalX7.0]

I'm becoming very confused.

Oh, I see.

Modifié par FatalX7.0, 26 mars 2012 - 02:12 .

[CmdrPwn]

Dark Specie wrote...

Kanub wrote...
Choose 'Control' ending and get the frigging Reapers to do it 

... We need that picture where Reaper!Shepard tells Harbrigner to work faster at rebuilding the Relays

[sth128]

Regarding the QEC network. Just remember that in ME2 we are told QEC do not work like a broadcast. Each pair work exclusively to one another.

This means half the QEC "network" was gone when Joker took off and crashed EDI into god knows where at the end. Also the other half of the QEC is also gone when the Citadel exploded.

So yeah. No more QEC. We never see any other QEC transmission that does not involve the Normandy or the Citadel.

[golyoscsapagy]

Slayer299 wrote...

golyoscsapagy wrote...
I think you are trying to imply something which wasn't said per se. The dialog as follows:

'When can I go to the stars?'
'One day my sweet'
'What will be there?'
'Anything you can imagine, our galaxy has billions of stars. Each of those stars could have many worlds. Every world could be home to a different form of life.'

Nothing here implies that space travel is a long way away. If anything the question of When from the child implies that space travel is a possibility (note, (s)he would ask 'can I go to the stars?' if the only thing (s)he ever heard was a fable about shepard). Stargazes scrip can be interpreted if the stargazer himself is a space farer. If anyone he know how freaking huge our universe is and how long would it take to map all of it. That's why he generalizes to the kid because that's the most correct picture about how huge the task is and WHY do you want to explore the galaxy.

You're wrong here, grandpa isn't generalizing to find out "why" the boy wants to go into space. If he was able to travel already why say then that "each world *could*", not does. If you want to ask a young child a 'why' question, you ask them "why do you......?" If it was a ongoing task why so evasive instead of saying "when you're a grown-up/adult" you can goto the stars."

Somedays, maybe's and could are generalities that you use to avoid telling a child something.

Because they are not finished with mapping the universe. Each star could contain a world - which is true according to our current knowledge - because by no means you can assume that EVERY star has a world attached. Same with the life stuff. It doesn't mean anything related to actual space travel. It means that they have a lack of knowledge about the universe because they didn't map the whole thing yet.

Yes, because usually when you say to a kid that 'when you grow up' it ends up with around 56 more questions about exact dates, the difference between tomorrow and next year, about education and whatnot. Just try talking to a kid sometime, it's tiresome. It's much easier to deflect the question. It's especially true for questions before bedtime when suddenly everything is terribly important to a kid except going to bed so they ask and ask and ask. Which is the exact situation in this case, so it's easier to deflect and get the little bastard into bed.

[CmdrPwn]

Militarized wrote...

I'm going to assume that individual is lying... a fusion reactor could cause our very existance to change in such fundamental ways it would be hard for us to grasp, that would solve ALL our energy problems and as far as I know top scientists consider it a "holy grail" scenario. 

[MDT1]

golyoscsapagy wrote...

For a really easy analogy from real life. What do you think would happen if you take an fission bomb, slap a brick of c4 on it and blow it up? Chances are high nothing (well, of course you would have a small explosion from the initial c4 and the charges in the bomb, but fission wouldn't happen).

So, for mass relays there is certanly a way to blow it up as a supernova (via Arrival method) but it doesn't imply it cannot be destroyed with less destructible means (like a fission bomb).

Another really easy analogy.

If you had a source of light, like a light bulb, that can be seen in a scale like the waves emmitted by the mass relay in the chain reaction, every solar system, that is unfortunate enough to be near this light bulb would be completely toasted. It's like taking a sunbath on mercury.

So please don't come with real life examples. Far too much space magic involved.

Edit: Also the only actuall evidence the ending itself gives us, is that the Normandy takes damage from the "Space Magic :wizard:".

Also on topic:
Would be hard to gather the eezo for the relays and get the relays into position, definitly more then 10 years.

Modifié par MDT1, 26 mars 2012 - 02:27 .

[SeanThen1]

One thing I think we can all agree on is unless the Reapers play an active role in rebuilding the galaxy, the reality of life prior to the invasion will not be possible for centuries at the soonest, millennia at the most likely. The Reapers killed millions, possibly billions of people and purposely wiped out any manufacturing infrastructure with which they came into contact. Rebounding from such wide spread, galactic devastation in 10 years is simply impossible.

[CaptainZaysh]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

No, Arrival proved that a large enough object can physically break the material that the relay is made of.

Prior to the events of Arrival, however, Dr. Amanda Kenson
and her research team calculated that if a large enough mass impacts a
relay with enough force, the relay should not be able to withstand it.


The consequences of destroying a mass relay are immense: as a huge mass
effect engine manipulating massive quantities of energy, a relay could
produce an explosion of supernova proportions.

@first bold

Simply means that a Relay can physically break if a large enough object hits it.



@second bold

Should
be obvious. It's Eezo core, it's Mass Effect engine is massive, when
that energy is released, in any manner, boom, whole system dead.

Okay, so you know that explosions are caused by the near instantaneous release of energy.  Great.

If you watch the cutscene again you'll notice that the relay discharges its energy before exploding (the lights go out).  Totally different from when the rock hit it (the lights were still on).

Happy to help put this stupid theory to bed.  

[GoblinSapper]

Militarized wrote...

The Comm Buoys require Mass Relays... that's why they position them AT the Mass Relay and not next to earth. They slingshot the data through the relay.

The storyboard in the final hours app specifically states all endings = a new galactic dark age, in plain english that means technology is thrown backwards/lost. 

So no, it won't be 10 years. 10,000 years later at the Stargazer epilogue and they still don't have space flight... so GG Mass Effect universe. 

The devs will have to retcon their own lore(again) to fix it unless they scrap these endings. 

Afraid this.

[FatalX7.0]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

No, Arrival proved that a large enough object can physically break the material that the relay is made of.

Prior to the events of Arrival, however, Dr. Amanda Kenson
and her research team calculated that if a large enough mass impacts a
relay with enough force, the relay should not be able to withstand it.


The consequences of destroying a mass relay are immense: as a huge mass
effect engine manipulating massive quantities of energy, a relay could
produce an explosion of supernova proportions.

@first bold

Simply means that a Relay can physically break if a large enough object hits it.



@second bold

Should
be obvious. It's Eezo core, it's Mass Effect engine is massive, when
that energy is released, in any manner, boom, whole system dead.

Okay, so you know that explosions are caused by the near instantaneous release of energy.  Great.

If you watch the cutscene again you'll notice that the relay discharges its energy before exploding (the lights go out).  Totally different from when the rock hit it (the lights were still on).

Happy to help put this stupid theory to bed.  

Thank you for being rude and contributing nothing definitive.

[Thomas Andresen]

Militarized wrote...

You could make that argument but the narrative "reset" button fits more in line with what they seemed to have been going for, landing on a "garden of eden" so to speak... which I don't have enough hands nor faces to facepalm at and if they haven't reattained some form of space flight after 10,000 years.... that's just total fail.

It hasn't even been 2,000 years for US after our "dark age" and we have attained limited space flight and are exploring our solar system, and we don't have the luxury like the ME universe of having the forknowledge, supposedly, of how that is achievable.

It's depressing I know, that they kill off their own IP it seems and I'd love to be proven wrong but this seems to be the direction narratively they wanted... resetting us back to primitives out of some asinine technophobia theory. 

Considering the fact that "10 000" years isn't actually conveyed in-game, it could be reasoned that it was a number a writer "just came up with", or something like that, to signify that it's been a long time. Or it could have been an early plan that it was supposed to have been that long, and then they decided, "naw, let's not set that in stone", without removing it from the game files. That whole "stargazer" cut-scene is supposed to be symbolic more than anything else. Why do you think they hired Buzz Aldrin to play the old man?

But in the end, that doesn't matter. Casey Hudson have stated that, while he very much would like to produce more games in the ME universe, he doesn't want to make any "post-Shepard" games. Let us speculate on the future, while they just continue expanding on what's happened before. The only problem I have with that is, unless you exclude humans from the galactic society, there really is very little room to manoeuvre. Only a few decades between the First Contact War and the events in the trilogy.

As for 10 years, that's downright unrealistic. Even if they had all they needed readily at hand, and everything went smoothly, it'd still take much longer. Why? In one word, logistics. That doesn't mean it's not possible, but a couple centuries, or maybe as much as a millennia, would be much more reasonable.

Garrus said in one of the Tuchanka missions that "Humans always want to save everyone, Turians knows that's not always possible.", yes it's generalizing on a massive scale, but I think it suitably explains why many are unhappy with the endings. Considering the state of the galaxy during the course of the game, expecting a "perfect ending", where you can save everyone is - to say it's unreasonable would be a colossal understatement. I'm no fan of Dark Ages, but to be honest, when the alternative is the extinction of the Human race, along with the Asari, Turians, Salarians, and every other space-faring species, a Dark Age suddenly becomes so much more appealing.

Also, BioWare is not going to come along and say "this theory is right" or "this theory is wrong". I have my own theories about the Catalyst and the endings, but I'm not going to share them, firstly because I'm not ready to defend them, secondly because I'm not sure I want to have to defend them, and lastly because I want them to stay mine, and not be gobbled up by the super-massive black hole that is the BSN.

[FatalX7.0]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Militarized wrote...

You could make that argument but the narrative "reset" button fits more in line with what they seemed to have been going for, landing on a "garden of eden" so to speak... which I don't have enough hands nor faces to facepalm at and if they haven't reattained some form of space flight after 10,000 years.... that's just total fail.

It hasn't even been 2,000 years for US after our "dark age" and we have attained limited space flight and are exploring our solar system, and we don't have the luxury like the ME universe of having the forknowledge, supposedly, of how that is achievable.

It's depressing I know, that they kill off their own IP it seems and I'd love to be proven wrong but this seems to be the direction narratively they wanted... resetting us back to primitives out of some asinine technophobia theory. 

Considering the fact that "10 000" years isn't actually conveyed in-game, it could be reasoned that it was a number a writer "just came up with", or something like that, to signify that it's been a long time. Or it could have been an early plan that it was supposed to have been that long, and then they decided, "naw, let's not set that in stone", without removing it from the game files. That whole "stargazer" cut-scene is supposed to be symbolic more than anything else. Why do you think they hired Buzz Aldrin to play the old man?

But in the end, that doesn't matter. Casey Hudson have stated that, while he very much would like to produce more games in the ME universe, he doesn't want to make any "post-Shepard" games. Let us speculate on the future, while they just continue expanding on what's happened before. The only problem I have with that is, unless you exclude humans from the galactic society, there really is very little room to manoeuvre. Only a few decades between the First Contact War and the events in the trilogy.

As for 10 years, that's downright unrealistic. Even if they had all they needed readily at hand, and everything went smoothly, it'd still take much longer. Why? In one word, logistics. That doesn't mean it's not possible, but a couple centuries, or maybe as much as a millennia, would be much more reasonable.

Garrus said in one of the Tuchanka missions that "Humans always want to save everyone, Turians knows that's not always possible.", yes it's generalizing on a massive scale, but I think it suitably explains why many are unhappy with the endings. Considering the state of the galaxy during the course of the game, expecting a "perfect ending", where you can save everyone is - to say it's unreasonable would be a colossal understatement. I'm no fan of Dark Ages, but to be honest, when the alternative is the extinction of the Human race, along with the Asari, Turians, Salarians, and every other space-faring species, a Dark Age suddenly becomes so much more appealing.

Also, BioWare is not going to come along and say "this theory is right" or "this theory is wrong". I have my own theories about the Catalyst and the endings, but I'm not going to share them, firstly because I'm not ready to defend them, secondly because I'm not sure I want to have to defend them, and lastly because I want them to stay mine, and not be gobbled up by the super-massive black hole that is the BSN.

I think 10k years is stated in the Final Hours app..

[Pelle6666]

Gives me no comfort. Stargazer didn't seam to be ten years from the crash of the Normandy and he said that "some day we'll be able to travel the stars" or some lame bull**** like that.
The mass relays shouldn't have been destroyed, it makes me so angry that they made that happen! Damn you Bioware!

[Thomas Andresen]

Cdr. Pwn wrote...

That image was jarring and hilarious at the same time. It seems like the kind of joke that Joker would come up with.

FatalX7.0 wrote...

I think 10k years is stated in the Final Hours app..

I don't remember anything about 10k years from the app. But as I said, the time don't matter, firstly because the cut-scene is supposed to be symbolic above anything else, and lastly, because BioWare isn't going release any games that takes place after the events in ME3.

Modifié par Thomas Andresen, 26 mars 2012 - 02:35 .