155 réponses à ce sujet

[SimKoning]

viperabyss wrote...

SimKoning wrote...



I was trying to figure out why the heck Joker would take off just before the Crucible activated, and then the answer hit me hard enough to leave a hand print on my face: the Crucible is a big anti Reaper weapon of some kind, that's all the Alliance knew; the Reaper's brains contain quantum computers; EDI is a quantum computer; common sense says that if you don't want your robot girlfriend's AI core fried, then it's probably a good idea to take off at least at the very last minute. Joker must have been in relay transit when the blast hit him. The blast probably disrupted the mass effect field, and the resulting shearing forces tore up the exterior of the ship.

Your squad was probably on board because he was serving as air support/evac when Hammer became a huge CF thanks to Harbinger. We don't see it, but Harbinger was probably in pursuit of the Normandy when you look up and see him take off.    

That's somewhat a good speculation on why Joker would leave. However, given that nobody knows what the Crucible does exactly, I really don't think Joker would abandon Shepard at the last minute.

But what can I say? It is a victorious and uplifting ending with lots of speculations from everyone.

One of the possible scenarios that Hacket considered was that the Crucible would kill everything and everyone around it. Seem like a logical reason to get the hell away from it when it's about to fire. 

I find this interesting. It seems to me that many here have an emotional attachment to either "indocrination theory", or this group hatred for the ending (retake Mass Effect). All I'm doing is giving the writers the benefit of the doubt. I'm fully aware that this is all ad hoc fan ****** to some extant thanks to the fact that the endings told us virtually nothing. However, I think Bioware can fix alot of this by simply filling in the blanks as I am now attempting to do. It's real easy to say, "nuh uh" and "that's stupid because of x" rather than finding logical solutions to these gaps, I know. 

[Pandaman102]

So the theory is that Joker risked the lives of everyone on the Normandy to pick up the team (except Shepard), two of which were right next to Shepard when the charge was blasted, in order to save everyone on the Normandy (in addition to EDI).

Sure, why not? That logic worked for Reapers, should work for Joker too.

[Swordfishtrombone]

SimKoning wrote...

The actual lines were:

"did we get anyone to the beam?"
"Negative, our entire force was decimated"
"We need to regroup"
"Hammer has been WIPED OUT all forces RETREAT"

As far as EDI, my point still stands. The Normandy's sensors would have detected the Crucible powering up, and I imagine EDI might remind Joker that she doesn't want to die. 

Two points:

1) You had two team members with you in the "hammer team" that was "wiped out", yet Joker apparently still came back for them, because you can often see them in the ending sequence, coming out of crashed Normandy. In essese, Normandy returned to the scene, ignored Shepard, picked up the two team members you had with you and who had somehow survived (and chosen not to follow sheppard into the beam!), and then high-tailed it out of the Sol system.

2) As someone stated earlier, nobody knew what the Crucible would do. This includes EDI. She had no reason to expect that she'd be in any more (or less) danger than anyone else on that ship.

So no, your proposed explanation does not work to explain the plot holes.

[GnusmasTHX]

Pandaman102 wrote...

So the theory is that Joker risked the lives of everyone on the Normandy to pick up the team (except Shepard), two of which were right next to Shepard when the charge was blasted, in order to save everyone on the Normandy (in addition to EDI).

Sure, why not? That logic worked for Reapers, should work for Joker too.

Acutally don't know about your game, but the squadmates and Normandy were no where to be found when I woke up, just as Harbinger left.

The plausible scenario is that they left, seeing you dead, along with the rest of Hammer (that ordered retreat). Then Joker picked them up from somewhere not within Harbinger's line of sight.

[streamlock]

Problem #1.  Joker would have had to land and pick up your squad 1st.  Or do a Stargate move and have the squad jump in the highly defended beam after several platoons could not make it, and fly into the beam while they where on the way up, and I have no idea how that would work anyway.

Problem #2.  A ship at FTL that is somehow forced out (due to mechanical failure or whatever) immediatly produces high levels of cheronkov radiation-killing everyone aboard.

Problem #3.  Why would any other space magic other then the destroy option pose any threat, or damage the Normandy anyway?

[Hendrik.III]

The only thing I can think of is when Hackett says that Hammer is obliterated, he orders to retreat/withdraw. He might be talking to sword, since with Hammer wiped out, they don't stand a chance.

In the relay explosion, that would be Joker retreating/withdrawing. But even when that is true, there would have been more ships at his side - unless he was the only one who chose that given destination.

Meh, just a thought, though. Doesn't explain the party members getting on board.

Modifié par Hendrik.III, 26 mars 2012 - 12:53 .

[Busternated]

SimKoning wrote...

MattFini wrote...

See, even your explanation is loaded with tons of "probablys", and that is the problem.

The ending to a trilogy shouldn't be vague at best and incoherent at worst.

Like many people have said: Hammer was ordered to fall back and regroup, not retreat. Sword, from what the game tells us, was still in offensive mode.

And that's all we really know for sure.

And that's just part of the reason why the ending is a big cluserfvck.

The actual lines were:

"did we get anyone to the beam?"
"Negative, our entire force was decimated"
"We need to regroup"
"Hammer has been WIPED OUT all forces RETREAT"

As far as EDI, my point still stands. The Normandy's sensors would have detected the Crucible powering up, and I imagine EDI might remind Joker that she doesn't want to die. 

Yes, problem is:
a) EDI knows nothing of the functionality of the Crucible, seeing as it is only explained to you. 
Even if EDI knew how the Crucible works (I doubt it)
  b1) Only one of the three options destroys synthetics.
  b2) EDI must know then that it destroys relays aswell.
  b3) EDI must know that by going into a relay, she'll just run into the shockwave of the receiving one. All relays are gone. This again makes no sense.

Sorry but I am really getting the feeling that some writers were at the toilet going, gee my poop just went down the drain but it always ends up at the sewer, we could do the same with our game, making them end up on some weird random planet for no reason (ofcourse including the squadmates from earth etc)...

Bioware, if you're listening. Please make the ending better. This low level of quality as just not what I'm used to when it comes to your games. Please...

[SimKoning]

Pandaman102 wrote...

So the theory is that Joker risked the lives of everyone on the Normandy to pick up the team (except Shepard), two of which were right next to Shepard when the charge was blasted, in order to save everyone on the Normandy (in addition to EDI).

Sure, why not? That logic worked for Reapers, should work for Joker too.

I think you are assuming that he only picked up your squad, and not everyone he possible could. An order was given for a retreat, that generally means a pick up by air support if possible. The Normandy probably took as many troops as they could fit. As far as squad mates that were right next to you go, that's something Bioware should probably fix with a patch... especially if they were dead.  

[Pandaman102]

I've tossed this possible scenario out before, but the most logical possibility was that Joker was not running away, he was simply ordered by Hackett to take Shepard's team (which somehow includes the two that were with you) to Ilos and try to use the mini relay to get in. That could have happened while Shepard was unconscious after being beamed up.

Of course, this is purely speculative and doesn't change the fact that the ending did nothing to explain it, so is also irrelevant.

[Archereon]

You know, the only way I can justify Joker's retreat is to imagine was trying to escape from the horrible ending.

[Eire Icon]

There is a beam heading towards you destroying things in its path - You have no idea what it will do to the ship your in, what would you do ?

[GnusmasTHX]

The Crucible destroying the Reapers is a general assumption in ME3. Everyone also entertains the idea that it will kill everyone. (Which is in fact true, in some cases).

[Dunizel]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

The plausible scenario is that they left, seeing you dead, along with the rest of Hammer (that ordered retreat). Then Joker picked them up from somewhere not within Harbinger's line of sight.

...No really, just no. They didn't even recovery the body?!
You might think that this is something pretty useless, but really...I honestly imagine that maybe my LI would have died there with me, or at least grieve a little. Or enough to have my body recovered if they saw it. LI or not, they were friends, do you really think none of them would have the idea to pick my body? Ok, it is useless...but...well, Liara did it before, why not again >.>
And I don't think the Normandy could have landed there, maybe a shuttle to pick them up...maybe...but still, I guess  that if they saw Shepard dead, someone might have got the idea to go inside and finish the damn war? 
I don't know...

[DangerSandler]

Then explain the synthesis and control endings. Joker still flys away from those beams, even though the beam wouldnt fry the synthetics on the Normandy. Plot hole is still plot hole.

[SimKoning]

Regarding the Crucible, let me form an analogy.

You are standing next to an object, you're not sure exactly what it is, or what it will do, but you do know that one of things it COULD do is explode and kill you. Are you going to stand around it when you start hearing a ticking sound just because you're not completely sure if it will actually explode?

DangerSandler wrote...

Then explain the synthesis and control endings. Joker still flys away from those beams, even though the beam wouldnt fry the synthetics on the Normandy. Plot hole is still plot hole.

And how would he know that until it hit him? See analogy above^

Modifié par SimKoning, 26 mars 2012 - 01:00 .

[Pandaman102]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Acutally don't know about your game, but the squadmates and Normandy were no where to be found when I woke up, just as Harbinger left.

The plausible scenario is that they left, seeing you dead, along with the rest of Hammer (that ordered retreat). Then Joker picked them up from somewhere not within Harbinger's line of sight.

Was the same in my game, doesn't really change the fact that they were right next to him when Shepard decided to block Harbinger's beam with his face (must have been effective, they survived). The point is that the entire area was unsafe, so either the two squadmates really hoofed it, totally out of range of Harbinger's guns, or Joker landed the Normandy ridiculously close and Harbinger ignored it in favor of shooting more foot soldiers.

[Knottedredloc]

I find it hard to believe that if Shepard's LI was with him on the ground and survived that he or she would not have taken the beam up to the Citadel with him/her. Especially Liara. It was be totally out of character for Liara not to be by Shepard's side on the Citadel to activate the Crucible.

[SimKoning]

I will agree that they need to fix who shows up and who doesn't at the end. But as far as why the Normandy is hauling *** out of Sol, that's obvious to me.

Modifié par SimKoning, 26 mars 2012 - 01:02 .

[MattFini]

It's hilarious watching people bend over backwards to try and defend this garbage.

The most annoying this is that even if they do correct this trash ending, I will never forget the first time I finished Mass Effect 3 and was greeted with some of the laziest crap I've ever seen in my years as a gamer. .

Modifié par MattFini, 26 mars 2012 - 01:02 .

[Swordfishtrombone]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

So the theory is that Joker risked the lives of everyone on the Normandy to pick up the team (except Shepard), two of which were right next to Shepard when the charge was blasted, in order to save everyone on the Normandy (in addition to EDI).

Sure, why not? That logic worked for Reapers, should work for Joker too.

Acutally don't know about your game, but the squadmates and Normandy were no where to be found when I woke up, just as Harbinger left.

The plausible scenario is that they left, seeing you dead, along with the rest of Hammer (that ordered retreat). Then Joker picked them up from somewhere not within Harbinger's line of sight.

Extremely unlikely - if they were in a good enough condition to leave, knowing the importance of the mission, would THEY not have continued onto the beam, with or without Sheppard? Everybody knew that this was a mission you simply could not retreat from - it was do or die.

[bydoritos]

SimKoning wrote...



I was trying to figure out why the heck Joker would take off just before the Crucible activated, and then the answer hit me hard enough to leave a hand print on my face: the Crucible is a big anti Reaper weapon of some kind, that's all the Alliance knew; the Reaper's brains contain quantum computers; EDI is a quantum computer; common sense says that if you don't want your robot girlfriend's AI core fried, then it's probably a good idea to take off at least at the very last minute. Joker must have been in relay transit when the blast hit him. The blast probably disrupted the mass effect field, and the resulting shearing forces tore up the exterior of the ship.

Your squad was probably on board because he was serving as air support/evac when Hammer became a huge CF thanks to Harbinger. We don't see it, but Harbinger was probably in pursuit of the Normandy when you look up and see him take off.    

Liara and Garrus would never abandon me, they would have stopped Joker and forcing him to turn back... and also.. how  Joker knew what was going to happen? If nobody knew exactly what the Crucible would do

Modifié par bydoritos, 26 mars 2012 - 01:04 .

[coolbeans]

Isn't relay transit supposed to be "near instantanous"

[GnusmasTHX]

Dunizel wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

The plausible scenario is that they left, seeing you dead, along with the rest of Hammer (that ordered retreat). Then Joker picked them up from somewhere not within Harbinger's line of sight.

...No really, just no. They didn't even recovery the body?!
You might think that this is something pretty useless, but really...I honestly imagine that maybe my LI would have died there with me, or at least grieve a little. Or enough to have my body recovered if they saw it. LI or not, they were friends, do you really think none of them would have the idea to pick my body? Ok, it is useless...but...well, Liara did it before, why not again >.>
And I don't think the Normandy could have landed there, maybe a shuttle to pick them up...maybe...but still, I guess  that if they saw Shepard dead, someone might have got the idea to go inside and finish the damn war? 
I don't know...

They couldn't have recovered the body, did you see the firepower Harbinger was laying down?

Although I concede that if it were the case that you were knocked out and your squadmates alive, I would imagine they would go for the beam themselves, and yes, leave Shepard behind. You don't ever risk lives for bodies. 

Could have been the case that Harbinger forced them back, and before they could move forward the area was already under Reaper control again.

Nothing really says they left then and there. They could've been fighting the entire time, saw the arms open up and boarded the Normandy to join Shepard and then colors happened and they left.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 26 mars 2012 - 01:07 .

[viperabyss]

SimKoning wrote...

One of the possible scenarios that Hacket considered was that the Crucible would kill everything and everyone around it. Seem like a logical reason to get the hell away from it when it's about to fire. 

I find this interesting. It seems to me that many here have an emotional attachment to either "indocrination theory", or this group hatred for the ending (retake Mass Effect). All I'm doing is giving the writers the benefit of the doubt. I'm fully aware that this is all ad hoc fan ****** to some extant thanks to the fact that the endings told us virtually nothing. However, I think Bioware can fix alot of this by simply filling in the blanks as I am now attempting to do. It's real easy to say, "nuh uh" and "that's stupid because of x" rather than finding logical solutions to these gaps, I know. 

If that's the case, then it is logical that Hackett would order the fleet to retreat, to preserve themselves. Obviously, that hasn't happened. Therefore I really doubt Joker would abandon the ultimate battle just because there's a feeling in the back of his mind that the usage of Crucible would result in everyone's death. 

I think it is ok to give writers' the benefit of doubt, that's why indoctrination theory exists. However, I think we should be fair, and examine this objectively. If your reader have to put a lot of speculations in for the ending to work, it is a failure on the narrative part. It would potentially work as a detective / mystery genre, but Mass Effect is neither of them. Bioware knows damn well that what players care about the most is the characters, not the plotlines. That is why they wrote send offs (Legion, Mordin, Thane, and potentially Grunt) beautifully. But the ending contained none of that, and it is a tragic Bioware would send off minor characters, but not send off the major ones.

People are also upset because they were promised an ending that would explain everything, and would not leave them hanging. However, the ending of ME3 gave them exactly that. It's as if Casey Hudson deliberately wanted to play a prank on the reader, by doing exactly the thing he said he wouldn't do, and now it has backfired. Personally, I think that's a horrible way to thank the loyal fans for sticking with them for over 5 years.