155 réponses à ce sujet

[Slayer299]

Dance Craze wrote...

We must also remember that all of your squadmates were on Earth... How'd they get back on the Normandy anyway?

And why, especially with some like Javik or Garrus, which makes their disappearance make even less sense.

[SimKoning]

jumpingkaede wrote...

SimKoning wrote...

A soldier says fall back to the buildings and regroup, but then another officer responds by saying that they have been wiped out and to retreat. 

I'd need to rewatch the scene but that definitely wasn't the impression that I got.  I don't even remember hearing the word "retreat" since that would've made no sense.  

Not denying it though.  I just don't remember.

I just watched it on youtube.

[FatalX7.0]

So...Joker abandons me, his Commander for years, who has saved his life, after he told me how me regretted being the cause of my death, for his newly acquired synthetic girlfriend?

Nice.

Modifié par FatalX7.0, 26 mars 2012 - 02:19 .

[Mandemon]

SimKoning wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

SimKoning wrote...

I think people keep forgetting about Harbinger, destroyer of worlds an all that. 

Please.

There's no logical reason for Harbinger to suddenly start to hunt the Normandy down when there's a much larger and more important battle going on. 

Yeah, because the pilot, crew and AI are only responsible for the deaths of 4 Reapers and all of the Collectors.. no logical reason at all. 

Let's see...

Sovereign: Final shot punched by Normandy SR-1 -> Collectors destroyed SR-1
Human Reaper: Shepard
Reaper Destroyer Tuschanka: Thresher Maw
Reaper Destroyer Rannoch: Shepard + Quarian Fleet

Nope, I don't see Normandy in any other than the first one. Others were killed because of Shepard, not Normandy. Plus, even Sovereign was only killed by Normandy because his shields were down.

Which one is bigger threat to Harbinger: Big Human Dreadnought or slightly larger than average Human Frigatte?

[jumpingkaede]

SimKoning wrote...

I just watched it on youtube.

Okay.  But you acknowledge that (a) retreating makes no sense in the context of the "final" fight and ( that wasn't a general retreat order for the fleet?

Since, you know, the fleet is still fighting the whole time.

[GnusmasTHX]

blah64 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Yeah... Joker would totally stay for Shepard rather than the 30+ lives on the Normandy.

Especially after staying got Shepard killed in the first game.

Rather, he should've just dropped everyone off on Earth.

No one on that crew would have run away from the final battle. Period. It's just not in their character.

It wasn't the final battle. It was the giant colored wave of whatever coming from the Crucible busting **** up.

[jumpingkaede]

Mandemon wrote...

Which one is bigger threat to Harbinger: Big Human Dreadnought or slightly larger than average Human Frigatte?

Don't forget about the stealth systems. 

Harbinger probably wanted the "Destroy Normandy" achievement.  Can you imagine the ribbing he'd take from the other Reapers if another Reaper got the Normandy first?

[Borothir]

No.

[coolbeans]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

So...Joker abandons me, his Commander for years, who has saved his life, after he told me how me regretted being the cause of my death, for his newly acquired synthetic girlfriend?

Nice.

Don't forget his synthetic girlfriend has already out and out stated that she is willing to die to eliminate the reapers.

[SimKoning]

Mandemon wrote...

SimKoning wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

SimKoning wrote...

I think people keep forgetting about Harbinger, destroyer of worlds an all that. 

Please.

There's no logical reason for Harbinger to suddenly start to hunt the Normandy down when there's a much larger and more important battle going on. 

Yeah, because the pilot, crew and AI are only responsible for the deaths of 4 Reapers and all of the Collectors.. no logical reason at all. 

Let's see...

Sovereign: Final shot punched by Normandy SR-1 -> Collectors destroyed SR-1
Human Reaper: Shepard
Reaper Destroyer Tuschanka: Thresher Maw
Reaper Destroyer Rannoch: Shepard + Quarian Fleet

Nope, I don't see Normandy in any other than the first one. Others were killed because of Shepard, not Normandy. Plus, even Sovereign was only killed by Normandy because his shields were down.

Which one is bigger threat to Harbinger: Big Human Dreadnought or slightly larger than average Human Frigatte?

Read what I typed. I didn't say the Ship, I said the people on it. Shepard wasn't exactly working solo the last 3 games... Shepard may have appeared dead to Harbinger because his heart may have stopped, he is a cyborg that was brought back from the dead after all. Shepard and his team have killed more Reapers and collectors than any other single group of people in the galaxy. That's a perfectly good reason to want to kill them, and fast. It's also a good reason for the Normandy to be retreating... facing off against Harbinger alone would be suicide, and they may have had simply no choice. Combine that with the fact that a giant super weapon was about to fire, and all and all you have a good reason to take off. At no point did I suggest that they fled *in the middle of battle*, they may have fled at the very last minute like I said. 

The fact is we won't know until the writers explain. This is all make believe nonsense anyway, but it's not that hard to think of a few *possible* reasons why something might happen in a science fiction story, if nothing else but to help suspend disbelief. I know everyone is dead set on getting an alternate ending that they are never going to get, or the validation of some pet conspiracy theory, but I would rather assume the worst and work with what they gave us. 

Modifié par SimKoning, 26 mars 2012 - 02:35 .

[AnttiV]

 I apologize, I only read through half of the thread, but I need to reply now:

a) Relay transmit is NOT instantaneous (cue ME2 final romance scene, it happens while they travel through the omega 4 relay. And it is said to take hours.)

it is established in-game that dropping out of FTL/relay travel spells destruction. Not just crash-land destruction, but explosion -level destruction. (Though I must admit I forgot if this is a codex-entry or spelled out in-game. Point still stands though.)

c) The two squad mates that were with you on earth just before Harbie-beam hit. (also almost as importantly to the other team mates at the complex where you could talk to everybody) - NORMANDY SR2 CAN'T LAND ON A PLANET! That is established in-game and that's why the new Normandy has the shuttle. It is too large to make a SR1-style planetary landing. So either Joker is really good to have picked each team mate (but left Shepard, who was lying not few meters from the two that were with her?) from earth, or some serious space magic happened with the shuttles.

d) every one was ready die, that is reiterated many times during the story. so why run in the end?

e) "Joker didn't know shep was alive". Then Hackett is a dick. He talked to Shepard (presumably over open channel, because doing otherwise would be rather pointless) before the "runaway" scene and knows she's alive. So why wouldn't Joker a) know of this already or why wouldn't Hackett have told EVERYBODY that Shep's still alive, we still have hope?

[jumpingkaede]

AnttiV wrote...

NORMANDY SR2 CAN'T LAND ON A PLANET! That is established in-game and that's why the new Normandy has the shuttle. It is too large to make a SR1-style planetary landing. So either Joker is really good to have picked each team mate (but left Shepard, who was lying not few meters from the two that were with her?) from earth, or some serious space magic happened with the shuttles.

It appears to have been retconned or explained away, because the SR2 is on Earth in the opening sequence of the game.

Also, Cortez could have picked them up to return to the Normandy.  Why he would do that I have no idea.  Why, if Cortez was at the beam and managed to extract your squad, they wouldn't have simply gone into the beam is a mystery as well.  And why your squad would go along with it, especially Garrus/Jahvik, is a bigger mystery.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 26 mars 2012 - 02:36 .

[P47 ace]

indoc theory say that:

The radio chatter that is heard over what happens to the attack is accually heard by the last part of sheperds mind that is cohirant before he fall unconsuac(spell). Their is never any mention of harbi leaving over the radio.

If harbi did leave then why in the world do you fall back, why not charge???
Harbi and the other reapers leaving is a fabrication by harbi to make you think it is safe.

The sense with the Normandy running through a relay or FTL, is also a fabrication of your mind to think that everyone you care about make it to safety.

But joker, even if he had good motive, would never get away with is because

Javik would shoot him for being a coward
Laria would crush him with biotics
Garrus would pull the stick out of his ass and beat him with it
Tali would shoot him with her shotgun and fly the ship herself
Vega/ ash would go all marine hand to hand on him
Kadien crush him with his biotics
EDI would slap him, and fly the ship herself

Their is no way in hell he would get away with is.

[SimKoning]

AnttiV wrote...

 I apologize, I only read through half of the thread, but I need to reply now:

a) Relay transmit is NOT instantaneous (cue ME2 final romance scene, it happens while they travel through the omega 4 relay. And it is said to take hours.)

it is established in-game that dropping out of FTL/relay travel spells destruction. Not just crash-land destruction, but explosion -level destruction. (Though I must admit I forgot if this is a codex-entry or spelled out in-game. Point still stands though.)

c) The two squad mates that were with you on earth just before Harbie-beam hit. (also almost as importantly to the other team mates at the complex where you could talk to everybody) - NORMANDY SR2 CAN'T LAND ON A PLANET! That is established in-game and that's why the new Normandy has the shuttle. It is too large to make a SR1-style planetary landing. So either Joker is really good to have picked each team mate (but left Shepard, who was lying not few meters from the two that were with her?) from earth, or some serious space magic happened with the shuttles.

d) every one was ready die, that is reiterated many times during the story. so why run in the end?

e) "Joker didn't know shep was alive". Then Hackett is a dick. He talked to Shepard (presumably over open channel, because doing otherwise would be rather pointless) before the "runaway" scene and knows she's alive. So why wouldn't Joker a) know of this already or why wouldn't Hackett have told EVERYBODY that Shep's still alive, we still have hope?

a)We've gone over that already. 

b)Who said they dropped out of FTL? What you saw could have been shearing forces from the mass effect envelope being distorted. The rockets may have been badly damaged, but the Normandy can propel itself with its mass effect fields alone if need be

d(There is a different between be willing to die, and getting killed by being an idiot. The Normandy had hacket on board and was basically a moble command center. We don't have enough context to know for sure if the Normandy was the last one out or not, it very well could have been.

e( Shepard's mission was to activate the Crucible, he accomplished that. AFTER it was activated, Hacket may have ordered all remaining ships to get as clear as possible of the blast radius *because they had no idea whether or not the blast would kill everyone and everything in the Sol system; in the worst ending, that *is* what happens.

Modifié par SimKoning, 26 mars 2012 - 02:50 .

[blooregard]

SimKoning wrote...



I was trying to figure out why the heck Joker would take off just before the Crucible activated, and then the answer hit me hard enough to leave a hand print on my face: the Crucible is a big anti Reaper weapon of some kind, that's all the Alliance knew; the Reaper's brains contain quantum computers; EDI is a quantum computer; common sense says that if you don't want your robot girlfriend's AI core fried, then it's probably a good idea to take off at least at the very last minute. Joker must have been in relay transit when the blast hit him. The blast probably disrupted the mass effect field, and the resulting shearing forces tore up the exterior of the ship.

Your squad was probably on board because he was serving as air support/evac when Hammer became a huge CF thanks to Harbinger. We don't see it, but Harbinger was probably in pursuit of the Normandy when you look up and see him take off.    

That may eplain why Joker ran away but it doesn't explain why he picked everyone up on Earth and they all willingly accepted Joker's selfish decission to run away.

Sorry to say that while your reason is a good one one spade of cement isn't going to patch a crater.

[Uirebhiril]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

Extremely unlikely - if they were in a good enough condition to leave, knowing the importance of the mission, would THEY not have continued onto the beam, with or without Sheppard? Everybody knew that this was a mission you simply could not retreat from - it was do or die.

 That's one of my big issue points with this. If your squadmates were capable of getting on their feet, why did they not push forward to complete the mission? Even if ordered to retreat, why did we not hear them over the radio saying they're right by the beam and unopposed now that Harbinger flew off? Are we really supposed to believe that Shepard's the only person in the whole universe that can enter a beam of light and flip a switch?

I really hope the Joker running and Normandy crash crap is removed. They'd have to do a lot of odd explanation about how your squadmates that were with you chose to abandon the mission and leave you for dead. Especially if, like in my playthrough, you had both Shepard's best friend and his/her love interest along. I just don't see Garrus up and leaving when he could finish the job for Shepard. 

Yea, yea. Speculation. Screw it.

[SimKoning]

blooregard wrote...

SimKoning wrote...



I was trying to figure out why the heck Joker would take off just before the Crucible activated, and then the answer hit me hard enough to leave a hand print on my face: the Crucible is a big anti Reaper weapon of some kind, that's all the Alliance knew; the Reaper's brains contain quantum computers; EDI is a quantum computer; common sense says that if you don't want your robot girlfriend's AI core fried, then it's probably a good idea to take off at least at the very last minute. Joker must have been in relay transit when the blast hit him. The blast probably disrupted the mass effect field, and the resulting shearing forces tore up the exterior of the ship.

Your squad was probably on board because he was serving as air support/evac when Hammer became a huge CF thanks to Harbinger. We don't see it, but Harbinger was probably in pursuit of the Normandy when you look up and see him take off.    

That may eplain why Joker ran away but it doesn't explain why he picked everyone up on Earth and they all willingly accepted Joker's selfish decission to run away.

Sorry to say that while your reason is a good one one spade of cement isn't going to patch a crater.

Right, I've already dropped that particular idea, it was just one of many possible explanations of what we saw. We don't have enough context, so hopefully Bioware will get the hint and fill in these gaps. As it is, the ending is a mess of disjointed cut scenes. 

[Mandemon]

SimKoning wrote...

Mandemon wrote...

SimKoning wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

SimKoning wrote...

I think people keep forgetting about Harbinger, destroyer of worlds an all that. 

Please.

There's no logical reason for Harbinger to suddenly start to hunt the Normandy down when there's a much larger and more important battle going on. 

Yeah, because the pilot, crew and AI are only responsible for the deaths of 4 Reapers and all of the Collectors.. no logical reason at all. 

Let's see...

Sovereign: Final shot punched by Normandy SR-1 -> Collectors destroyed SR-1
Human Reaper: Shepard
Reaper Destroyer Tuschanka: Thresher Maw
Reaper Destroyer Rannoch: Shepard + Quarian Fleet

Nope, I don't see Normandy in any other than the first one. Others were killed because of Shepard, not Normandy. Plus, even Sovereign was only killed by Normandy because his shields were down.

Which one is bigger threat to Harbinger: Big Human Dreadnought or slightly larger than average Human Frigatte?

Read what I typed. I didn't say the Ship, I said the people on it. Shepard wasn't exactly working solo the last 3 games... Shepard may have appeared dead to Harbinger because his heart may have stopped, he is a cyborg that was brought back from the dead after all. Shepard and his team have killed more Reapers and collectors than any other single group of people in the galaxy. That's a perfectly good reason to want to kill them, and fast. It's also a good reason for the Normandy to be retreating... facing off against Harbinger alone would be suicide, and they may have had simply no choice. Combine that with the fact that a giant super weapon was about to fire, and all and all you have a good reason to take off. At no point did I suggest that they fled *in the middle of battle*, they may have fled at the very last minute like I said. 

The fact is we won't know until the writers explain. This is all make believe nonsense anyway, but it's not that hard to think of a few *possible* reasons why something might happen in a science fiction story, if nothing else but to help suspend disbelief. I know everyone is dead set on getting an alternate ending that they are never going to get, or the validation of some pet conspiracy theory, but I would rather assume the worst and work with what they gave us. 

Even if we move to crew of Normandy, they are still of the list. Shepards allies, the one who once served on Normandy, were on the ground.

Also, if they fleed in the last moment it still doesn't explain how your squad mates got back to Normandy or are you seriosuly going to claim that Joker can just land few feets away from a Reaper and pick up group of people?

[Pelle6666]

Since Edi was on earth when Shepard took his farewells of the crew... This ain't holding water either.

[OSUfan12121]

And this is why people hate the ending. It creates a million more questions then it answered but I guess EAware got what it wanted "speculation from everyone!" A trilogy should answer ALL questions in the finale not add more.

[SimKoning]

OSUfan12121 wrote...

And this is why people hate the ending. It creates a million more questions then it answered but I guess EAware got what it wanted "speculation from everyone!" A trilogy should answer ALL questions in the finale not add more.

How do you think I feel lol. I'm trying to play devil's advocate, and its giving me a damn headache. 

Someone should send this thread to the writers and say, "hey, there is this guy trying really hard to defend this crap, and he is not doing so well. Maybe we should fix this? ". 

Modifié par SimKoning, 26 mars 2012 - 03:20 .

[JamieCOTC]

Just think of it this way. It wouldn't be Mass Effect w/out a huge plothole involving the Normandy.

[braisbr1]

don't kid yourself, take a rifle and join the fight.

hold the line!

[J717]

So in order to defend bad writing, we have to be okay with the writers using bad writing to take Joker completely out of character and having him high tail it out of the Sol system, making loads of assumptions along the way as to why he'd leave Shepard behind....knowing that without Shepard, the galaxy is pretty much lost?

MAKES PERFECT SENSE.