To many plotholes.. Sorry..
Joker's Retreat Explained.
Débuté par
SimKoning
, mars 26 2012 12:02
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#152
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 03:47
Yuoaman
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Even so, how did he get EDI and all of your squadmates into the Normandy in time to make the mad dash? It would probably take quite a while to move them out of a war zone.
#153
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 04:02
SimKoning
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Hey I tried, makes me wonder how Bioware is going to fix this... stop, don't respond with, "it's indoctrination!!!" Honestly, they should just cut everything post Anderson's death. Just have the Crucible go off, no Wintersun Starchild references.
You know it's bad when I'm approaching this as a most likely unsolvable puzzle.
Speculation for ever.. lksnfddvjfn *bangs head on keyboard.*
You know it's bad when I'm approaching this as a most likely unsolvable puzzle.
Speculation for ever.. lksnfddvjfn *bangs head on keyboard.*
#154
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 04:06
The Angry One
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I may have indoctrinated eyes but I ain't indoctrinated!
Wait... let me start again.
Indoctrination is a cute fan theory, but that's all it is. It's fans explaining the plot holes by making it all a dream, if it's all a dream then the plot holes don't matter.
Unfortunately the truth of the matter is this is what they intended as a real ending, and therefore the plot holes ARE there and DO matter.
Even if BioWare come up with some convoluted reason as to why Joker fled, it's still out of character, and the fact that the FTL field collapsed without killing them all (as per established lore) and they somehow managed to land on a planet at all is still a plot hole that can NEVER be explained.
Unless a space wizard did it.
Wait... let me start again.
Indoctrination is a cute fan theory, but that's all it is. It's fans explaining the plot holes by making it all a dream, if it's all a dream then the plot holes don't matter.
Unfortunately the truth of the matter is this is what they intended as a real ending, and therefore the plot holes ARE there and DO matter.
Even if BioWare come up with some convoluted reason as to why Joker fled, it's still out of character, and the fact that the FTL field collapsed without killing them all (as per established lore) and they somehow managed to land on a planet at all is still a plot hole that can NEVER be explained.
Unless a space wizard did it.
#155
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 04:10
SimKoning
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The Angry One wrote...
I may have indoctrinated eyes but I ain't indoctrinated!
Wait... let me start again.
Indoctrination is a cute fan theory, but that's all it is. It's fans explaining the plot holes by making it all a dream, if it's all a dream then the plot holes don't matter.
Unfortunately the truth of the matter is this is what they intended as a real ending, and therefore the plot holes ARE there and DO matter.
Even if BioWare come up with some convoluted reason as to why Joker fled, it's still out of character, and the fact that the FTL field collapsed without killing them all (as per established lore) and they somehow managed to land on a planet at all is still a plot hole that can NEVER be explained.
Unless a space wizard did it.
Well, I don't think the mass effect field collapsed, because if it did, they would have never made it to that planet even if they survived the radiation. The ship took damage, but that's not the same as the field collapsing.
#156
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 08:12
Medievalist
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So here are some thoughts that came up while following the discussion.
I personally think that Joker's escape IS a major plothole. Let's just take everything for granted for one minute and follow the (most likely) timeline of events, taking the "best" Destroy ending as an example and doing a parallel view.
-------------
1.
The Normandy leaves the attacking Sword fleets so that you can unite with the Hammer ground forces. After taking the shuttle for final approach, Joker would have re-joined the battle in orbit.
2.
SHEPARD fights his/her way through London and to the beam. It is clear by now, that London is one hell of a landing zone (e.g. leading to Cortez' crash most likely death)
JOKER fights alongside Sword (as there is no obvious reason to do otherwise) to support the effort.
3.
SHEPARD makes his way up to the Citadel. While talking to the Catalyst the battling Sword fleets can be seen right above you.
JOKER however somehow decided to leave the fray, descending to London, where he rallies Shepard's team, including your LI (Liara in my case). To make an evacuation feasible, Shepard's team is already awaiting Joker for immediate dustoff. This implies that there's no debate about abandoning Shepard and the fighting allied forces.
[Time for round trip from/to Earth orbit including pickup of the team and evasive maneuvers in London: 15 minutes minimum]
4.
While SHEPARD uses the Crucible to initiate the destruction, the battle on the ground as well as in orbit still continues.
JOKER hits the FTL drive after leaving Earth's atmosphere, ignoring the struggling allied fleets to make it to the Charon relay near Pluto.
[NOTE: Distance Earth-Pluto is 4,44 billion kilometers (at perihelion). Travel time at speed of light would be 4,11 hours (1,08 billion kph). Given the availability of FTL drives (specific speed unknown) it would still take at least 5 more minutes to switch on the FTL drive, switch it off and hit the Charon relay.]
5.
This means that the Normandy [if at all!!!]had just entered the relay when the energy beam from the Citadel hit. The beam follows immediately in its path.
6.
Now comes the most interesting part: While SHEPARD dies/lies down for a minute, JOKER DEFIES THE MASS EFFECT UNIVERSE'S PHYSICS!
When the beam hits, the Normandy's engines are torn to shreds, the FTL drive most likely fails, kicking the ship back to sub-FTL speeds. Now read the following in-game Codex (Secondary) entry:
FTL Drive
(...)
If the field collapses while the ship is moving at faster-than-light speeds, the effects are catastrophic. The ship is snapped back to sublight velocity, the enormous excess energy shed in the form of lethal Cherenkov radiation.
This simply means: Once your ship does not leave FTL speed appropriately, you and your crew will die of radiation poisoning (notice the blue glow that's typical of high doses of Cherenkov radiation, just before the screen turns black).
7.
JOKER manages to withstand the (normally lethal) emission of probably several sievert within one second (benefit of Vrolik's syndrome?) and sights a habitable garden world that just happens to be where the Normandy left FTL speeds. Furthermore he tells the Normandy to pull itself together and land not only safely, but in a VTOL-like style.
[PLEASE NOTE: There are unscathed rocks behind the Normandy, indicating that it did not go down in an emergency landing (creating some kind of groove as it slides along the ground), but rather smoothly and in a perfect vertical direction. Also the leaves behind and around the Normandy show no sign of burning.]
--------------------
There you have it, even without taking into account that basically your whole squad is out of character, by just sticking to the physics of the Mass Effect universe, the ending that BioWare showed us, is simply ILLOGICAL.
This is the part that bites the most, only slightly surpassing the question what happens to all the alien fleets that are stuck in the Sol system.
As a side note: The galaxy overview contains another mistake (in canon terms): The Charon relay links to Arcturus. Arcturus itself has another three relays in proximity (see Mass Effect: Revelation). However, the intial beam from Charon leads to just one other beam (the second). Only then does it split into two different chain reactions.
I personally think that Joker's escape IS a major plothole. Let's just take everything for granted for one minute and follow the (most likely) timeline of events, taking the "best" Destroy ending as an example and doing a parallel view.
-------------
1.
The Normandy leaves the attacking Sword fleets so that you can unite with the Hammer ground forces. After taking the shuttle for final approach, Joker would have re-joined the battle in orbit.
2.
SHEPARD fights his/her way through London and to the beam. It is clear by now, that London is one hell of a landing zone (e.g. leading to Cortez' crash most likely death)
JOKER fights alongside Sword (as there is no obvious reason to do otherwise) to support the effort.
3.
SHEPARD makes his way up to the Citadel. While talking to the Catalyst the battling Sword fleets can be seen right above you.
JOKER however somehow decided to leave the fray, descending to London, where he rallies Shepard's team, including your LI (Liara in my case). To make an evacuation feasible, Shepard's team is already awaiting Joker for immediate dustoff. This implies that there's no debate about abandoning Shepard and the fighting allied forces.
[Time for round trip from/to Earth orbit including pickup of the team and evasive maneuvers in London: 15 minutes minimum]
4.
While SHEPARD uses the Crucible to initiate the destruction, the battle on the ground as well as in orbit still continues.
JOKER hits the FTL drive after leaving Earth's atmosphere, ignoring the struggling allied fleets to make it to the Charon relay near Pluto.
[NOTE: Distance Earth-Pluto is 4,44 billion kilometers (at perihelion). Travel time at speed of light would be 4,11 hours (1,08 billion kph). Given the availability of FTL drives (specific speed unknown) it would still take at least 5 more minutes to switch on the FTL drive, switch it off and hit the Charon relay.]
5.
This means that the Normandy [if at all!!!]had just entered the relay when the energy beam from the Citadel hit. The beam follows immediately in its path.
6.
Now comes the most interesting part: While SHEPARD dies/lies down for a minute, JOKER DEFIES THE MASS EFFECT UNIVERSE'S PHYSICS!
When the beam hits, the Normandy's engines are torn to shreds, the FTL drive most likely fails, kicking the ship back to sub-FTL speeds. Now read the following in-game Codex (Secondary) entry:
FTL Drive
(...)
If the field collapses while the ship is moving at faster-than-light speeds, the effects are catastrophic. The ship is snapped back to sublight velocity, the enormous excess energy shed in the form of lethal Cherenkov radiation.
This simply means: Once your ship does not leave FTL speed appropriately, you and your crew will die of radiation poisoning (notice the blue glow that's typical of high doses of Cherenkov radiation, just before the screen turns black).
7.
JOKER manages to withstand the (normally lethal) emission of probably several sievert within one second (benefit of Vrolik's syndrome?) and sights a habitable garden world that just happens to be where the Normandy left FTL speeds. Furthermore he tells the Normandy to pull itself together and land not only safely, but in a VTOL-like style.
[PLEASE NOTE: There are unscathed rocks behind the Normandy, indicating that it did not go down in an emergency landing (creating some kind of groove as it slides along the ground), but rather smoothly and in a perfect vertical direction. Also the leaves behind and around the Normandy show no sign of burning.]
--------------------
There you have it, even without taking into account that basically your whole squad is out of character, by just sticking to the physics of the Mass Effect universe, the ending that BioWare showed us, is simply ILLOGICAL.
This is the part that bites the most, only slightly surpassing the question what happens to all the alien fleets that are stuck in the Sol system.
As a side note: The galaxy overview contains another mistake (in canon terms): The Charon relay links to Arcturus. Arcturus itself has another three relays in proximity (see Mass Effect: Revelation). However, the intial beam from Charon leads to just one other beam (the second). Only then does it split into two different chain reactions.
