288 réponses à ce sujet

[Statulos]

LdyBelial wrote...

Statulos wrote...

--snip--

stakhanovism

I loathe making myself look like an unintelligent arse here...  But...  I don't know what that means?

Stakhanov was a coal miner in the Soviet Union who worked like a beast to increase production. Taking his example, Stalin's regime pushed for a bigger productivity and work time at any cost for everyone.

Stakahnovism is the extreme version of becoming a workaholic.

So in a nuthsell, the last thing I want for people working at Bioware is them becoming mindles workers. I want them to have a good, meaninful and nice life. Even if I do not like what they have done with their work, I hold no grudge against them on a personal level.

They deserve a good life, just like any other human being.

Modifié par Statulos, 26 mars 2012 - 05:27 .

[MakeMineMako]

jspiess wrote...

 

I guess the thread is going to get locked now. (sarcasm) <_<

[pjotroos]

Kingofthebonggo wrote...

pjotroos wrote...

Kingofthebonggo wrote...

I ask all malcontents regarding the ending sequence this question: Was it easy for you to make the final choice about the future of the galaxy?

I'll give you one better. I honestly don't remember which one I picked - left or right. I could swear I turned left, cause that was the blue one, but then it turned out it's red on the left. So now I'm puzzled if I went left or went for blue. I remember bits of the outro but they're inconclusive. I do know I didn't pick the "best" one, synthesis, because I wasn't interested in playing dr Mengele. But otherwise, the choices were so bland, so repulsive and so downright uninspired I just picked one at random and hoped the story is gonna start making sense again.

The blue pill on the left and red on the right. I'm sorry that you found them to be uninspired. I found them to be postmodern in the way the problem was addressed. You can either try to control them, destroy them, or synthesize life. Anything else would not address the core issue of orgnaic versus synthetic wars. But that's how I feel and I'm not saying you're wrong. I just didn't find them to be as egregious as you did. Oh, and I remember my ending and it took me about 10 minutes to decide. I had that WTF moment you allude too but I didn't say F this I'm just gonna pick a random outcome so that it will hopefully make sense. I ended up killing synthetics because ultimately I spent three games trying to perserve the many different organic civilzations.

Likewise, I'm not berating you for enjoying the ending. I sincerely wish I could find it as inspired as you did. It all comes down to what we expected from the game,  I suppose. I was after the personal journey. You were interested in a parable. The weakness of the ending is that they couldn't do the second without crushing the first. If the "destroy" option ended as rejecting catalyst logic and choosing open hostility instead of the two "peace offerings", and let us test our mettle against the reapers without catalyst intervening either way, it would already be a little better. It would be better still if their former reasoning was not crushed in such heavyhanded way - if we were speaking there to a Harbringer, arguing that life as we live it is weak, ineffective and will lead us to our destruction. That their form is pure and final - united, singleminded, eternal. The sudden shift from fighting those ancient creatures to negotiating terms of surrender with a little boy that explains reapers are his playthings is just so jarring I can't look past it.

Modifié par pjotroos, 26 mars 2012 - 05:29 .

[Jeb231]

If anything, I consider we are doing them a favour letting them know people will walk away from the franchise the same way they gave up on the Matrix or BSG after their respective endings. Besides the ending sequence was clearly rushed to be ready before EA's quarter so all is being asked is to restore things up. Maybe it's indoc, maybe there is a valuable reasoning behind the star child rhetoric but as it stands it feels unsatisfying, unfinished and awkwardly nihilistic (not bittersweet at all).

Modifié par Jeb231, 26 mars 2012 - 05:51 .

[Clayless]

MrGone wrote...

Yes, as an absurdist point for the purposes of black humor. By which I mean dark humor, as it seems you might be the type to think I mean "african american" or something.

"Backpedaling, backpedaling"

There's no point in trying to explain to me why comparing it to being molested is completely ridiculous. You shouldn't use analogies that wildly backfire like this.

[Namz89]

Aren't they a little bit unfair?
Releasing a game that feels unfinished. Keeping us in the dark that long - refusing to make an official statement about that they were even thinking about the end. When they made a statement, they said practically nothing. Then they called the people who were not satisfied "children throwing a tantrum" instead of listening and taking critique seriously. It was claimed that "on the endings - yes, we are listening", to what end? Now a "closure" and "clarity" DLC is being released in April to silence most of us.

Of course some people in here are getting annoyed by the fact that everything is kept behind the curtains. Of course it's not okay to insult the people that worked on it, and Bioware itself.

But...you know what makes me think? You want civility and maturity. Is pretending to listen, and ignoring so many voices civil...mature...or even fair?
Things like that go both ways. Just saying...

[ObsidianAgent]

We're not being unfair - we're the ones that feel cheated. They have our money (sufficient for them) and we have a game with a craptacular ending (deficient for us). I don't think, short of harrassment or physical harm to BW employees (and that I will never condone), that we can be unfair. We're the injured party.

[LdyBelial]

Statulos wrote...

LdyBelial wrote...

Statulos wrote...

--snip--

stakhanovism

I loathe making myself look like an unintelligent arse here...  But...  I don't know what that means?

Stakhanov was a coal miner in the Soviet Union who worked like a beast to increase production. Taking his example, Stalin's regime pushed for a bigger productivity and work time at any cost for everyone.

Stakahnovism is the extreme version of becoming a workaholic.

So in a nuthsell, the last thing I want for people working at Bioware is them becoming mindles workers. I want them to have a good, meaninful and nice life. Even if I do not like what they have done with their work, I hold no grudge against them on a personal level.

They deserve a good life, just like any other human being.

Thank you!!!  And I agree!  I want all those working with and for BioWare to have good lives too! 

But I also believe that BioWare did a really wonderful job for the MOST part with ME3.  The ending sucks.  There were a few other issues in the game I would have liked to have been better...  But overall?  I loved ME3!  I want to play it again!  I just... can't... get... past... that... ending!

[Clayless]

Namz89 wrote...

But...you know what makes me think? You want civility and maturity. Is pretending to listen, and ignoring so many voices civil...mature...or even fair?
Things like that go both ways. Just saying...

So far the Retake movement has been using deceit, wanting to sue Bioware, giving the game 0/10, comparing it
to getting their mother raped, comparing it to killing their children, comparing it to being molested, wanting people to be fired, calling for the company to collapse, making threads about how to get your money back that's full of praise and support, demanding their money back from a charity and forcing it to change it's rules, the list goes on and on.


The people in that movement who are being civil are being drowned out, quite dramatically, by the members of that group who are being destructive. Every time you see someone post one line and "Hold the line" it's just assumed they're part of the destructive side.

Heck there's even tons of people in here saying Bioware deserve everything they get, debatably the majority of people in here. What has Bioware done that's as bad as this or deserves this?

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 26 mars 2012 - 05:37 .

[noobcannon]

 haters gonna hate

[aliengmr1]

The game may have been great. But they new this was coming. The end of not just ME3 but the whole series.Pretty important if you ask me. I never thought they would hit a homerun with fans, but never did I think they fail so badly.

Frankly it was un-fair of BW to sit back and watch as folks like IGN insult their fans and then have the nerve to ONLY call out the fans for their "destructive" feedback. In fact, the mags got praise from BW. Little sour on BW for that, so kid-gloves stay off.

[ALGuy]

Wow, calling people out on something is uncivil. I haven't read any vulgarity or anything that would be considered abuse. So when Bioware hides behind "Artistic Choices" and "Artistic Integrity" rather then admitting they wrote an ending that undoes everything they had you work for and care about, and you criticize them and call their bluff, is that attacking Bioware?

[Slayer299]

No, we aren't being unfair. What we got from BW for ME3 was a game that had bugs and other problems I never would expect to see in any AAA title. Ridiculously bad journal, char models that turn their heads 180 (damned creepy looking especially upside down at you), assets that have no meaning in the end game beyond a magic number, loads of fetch quests (too many tbh. Fetch quests aren't bad, just not overload) and of course a horrific ending that utterly trashes the rest of the game (which was really good) and the previous 2 and our 3 endings of R/G/B while leaving you w/o any desire to replay any of ME 1-3.

When devs make promises they had better be there or just be silent so as not to lie and look like idiots.

[noobcannon]

aliengmr1 wrote...

The game may have been great. But they new this was coming. The end of not just ME3 but the whole series.Pretty important if you ask me. I never thought they would hit a homerun with fans, but never did I think they fail so badly.

Frankly it was un-fair of BW to sit back and watch as folks like IGN insult their fans and then have the nerve to ONLY call out the fans for their "destructive" feedback. In fact, the mags got praise from BW. Little sour on BW for that, so kid-gloves stay off.

[Avatar231278]

rgretret wrote...

 In my opinion we should behave kinder towards Bioware, because they made a highly emotional game after all and just because the ending was disappointing for most of us, it doesn't mean that the rest of this masterpiece of a game was too.

I am always kind and find ME3 an emotional game which was great fun to play, but the ending put my PhD in jeopardy, as it actually sucks intelligence out of the brain as many things you used to know get replaced by "what the f...?!"

Modifié par Avatar231278, 26 mars 2012 - 05:41 .

[streamlock]

It all depends on what they do next. Either I'm being unfair, or overly generous toward them. Only time will tell.....

[Kayawyn4]

I don't feel we’re being unfair either. I loved the game but the ending made it completely unplayable for me. Even if they hadn’t promised us 16 different endings, I would have felt cheated by it. That being said, I think their writers are amazing because I definitely would never have thought a game could make me feel the way ME did.

[Statulos]

aliengmr1 wrote...

The game may have been great. But they new this was coming. The end of not just ME3 but the whole series.Pretty important if you ask me. I never thought they would hit a homerun with fans, but never did I think they fail so badly.

Frankly it was un-fair of BW to sit back and watch as folks like IGN insult their fans and then have the nerve to ONLY call out the fans for their "destructive" feedback. In fact, the mags got praise from BW. Little sour on BW for that, so kid-gloves stay off.

Actually that is what kills me about PR. We and not the magazines are the ones who make Bioware (and any company) keep living. It is us who should the company care for.

[Namz89]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Namz89 wrote...

But...you know what makes me think? You want civility and maturity. Is pretending to listen, and ignoring so many voices civil...mature...or even fair?
Things like that go both ways. Just saying...

So far the Retake movement has been using deceit, wanting to sue Bioware, giving the game 0/10, comparing it
to getting their mother raped, comparing it to killing their children, comparing it to being molested, wanting people to be fired, calling for the company to collapse, making threads about how to get your money back that's full of praise and support, demanding their money back from a charity and forcing it to change it's rules, the list goes on and on.


The people in that movement who are being civil are being drowned out, quite dramatically, by the members of that group who are being destructive. Every time you see someone post one line and "Hold the line" it's just assumed they're part of the destructive side.

Heck there's even tons of people in here saying Bioware deserve everything they get, debatably the majority of people in here. What has Bioware done that's as bad as this or deserves this?

Well... We have the same effect here, that the game had. The majority of us are very civil, giving helpful constructive critique, yet people only tend to see the few "black sheeps"

Isn't it the same with the end? Now tell me, are those few people "overshadowing" the majority of the Retake movement?
We are not against the game itself, or the people who wrote it, or Bioware. We are against the ending. Period. We don't want to change the people working at Bioware, or the politics in the company. We want to change the ending.
Thats what you have to keep in mind, when reading "our" post. 

[TUHD]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Namz89 wrote...

But...you know what makes me think? You want civility and maturity. Is pretending to listen, and ignoring so many voices civil...mature...or even fair?
Things like that go both ways. Just saying...

So far the Retake movement has been using deceit, wanting to sue Bioware, giving the game 0/10, comparing it
to getting their mother raped, comparing it to killing their children, comparing it to being molested, wanting people to be fired, calling for the company to collapse, making threads about how to get your money back that's full of praise and support, demanding their money back from a charity and forcing it to change it's rules, the list goes on and on.


The people in that movement who are being civil are being drowned out, quite dramatically, by the members of that group who are being destructive. Every time you see someone post one line and "Hold the line" it's just assumed they're part of the destructive side.

Heck there's even tons of people in here saying Bioware deserve everything they get, debatably the majority of people in here. What has Bioware done that's as bad as this or deserves this?

ROFL. Get your fact right or go away. You're trolling now, and your facts are as far away from the truth as it can be.

[Persephone]

I'm no PR expert BUT:

It goes both ways.

The whole PR about the endings was goddam stupid. It kinda is NOT a lie if you consider the ENTIRE game and its many variables your personal ending... Still, a stretch.

The fire ignites. Silence.

I would have thought that after the unfair review bombing on MC , Bioware would be on alert....

The fire turns into a massive firestorm. Silence.

A petition is started, a charity supported.... Silence.

The game is review bombed, people are stooping to harassment, personal insults, accusing every positive review of being paid for without evidence...basically, everything you should NOT do, if you want to be taken seriously. (Desperate people will stoop to desperate methods)

An outright war begins, even journalists begin to take sides (I doubt their motives, no matter the choice)....

Bioware responds, even the founder of the company speaks up.

Only....too late. No matter how kindly Bioware might have intended these messages, when a certain line is crossed, emotions will overtake reason and no matter the intent, the offended party will lash out and refuse to be placated by words alone. (That MAY have worked out better if the collaboration between fans & devs over the endings had begun sooner). As someone who LOVED ME3 and is NOT heavily annoyed by the endings, I am still astounded by Bioware's stubborn silence that only made matters worse....wounds will fester if not attended to ASAP and Bioware found that out the hard way.

Does that justify review bombing, harassments, insults and NEW lies aka "The only difference is the color!" ? No.

But it puts the whole thing into perspective, for me at least.

[Persephone]

TUHD wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Namz89 wrote...

But...you know what makes me think? You want civility and maturity. Is pretending to listen, and ignoring so many voices civil...mature...or even fair?
Things like that go both ways. Just saying...

So far the Retake movement has been using deceit, wanting to sue Bioware, giving the game 0/10, comparing it
to getting their mother raped, comparing it to killing their children, comparing it to being molested, wanting people to be fired, calling for the company to collapse, making threads about how to get your money back that's full of praise and support, demanding their money back from a charity and forcing it to change it's rules, the list goes on and on.


The people in that movement who are being civil are being drowned out, quite dramatically, by the members of that group who are being destructive. Every time you see someone post one line and "Hold the line" it's just assumed they're part of the destructive side.

Heck there's even tons of people in here saying Bioware deserve everything they get, debatably the majority of people in here. What has Bioware done that's as bad as this or deserves this?

ROFL. Get your fact right or go away. You're trolling now, and your facts are as far away from the truth as it can be.

Sadly no. Everything mentioned in his/her post HAS actually happened.

[rinoe]

Stanley Woo wrote...

This is just a reminder that, regardless of how you feel about the ME3 ending or BioWare, our Site Rules are still in effect. Like us or not, like Mass Effect 3 or not, there is never any call for swearing, disrespect towards our developers, or bashing of the company. Such behaviour is inappropriate for our community. We expect our community members to be able to disagree with us, our decisions, and our games with civility and maturity.

thank you.

We are civil. You don't need to remind us every time we should be civil. This is inappropriate.

We feel bad about the ending.

I fell bad becouse  that is all respond I have from you. Remainder about Site Rules. I do not remember you said you like us too, since the problems starts. I just feel like - you do not agree with us? So we do not need you anymore. GO away.

We, as fans and custormes had been lied to - we do not received what we where promised. We do not hear 'sorry'  for this till now. Is it appropriate?

I'm not even mad at Bioware - I'm just sad and very disapointed - both things - the ending and the company reaction. I expected much more form developers and simply from people working there. This is Bioware after all.
I think you look at the wrong side as a company - you shloud look at your fans. We still here, mad but still supporting you. Still belive that you can improve, fix mistakes. We are counting on this, on you. All this feedback is our hope. Do not fight us, becouse we don't want to fight. We want ME3 as it should be, as you should make it. As you can make it.  Just do it.

I can't replay the game with this ending. I just want to go back to my favorite games and have fun, not depression.  Is it too much?

[Leninsaurus]

I think we can all agree that up to the ending most of us consider the whole trilogy amazing and a wonderful experience. But I think the anger and frustration of the fans is completely justified, because - aside from an ending that throws everything that has been established in the game out of the window, the whole dynamics of the story, the interactivity of the player, choices and their consequences - we were promised an ending to the whole series that gave us closure, and was completely dependant on how we played the three games as a whole. It was clearly stated, that you can't boil down the endings to "A, B or C" prior to the release.

Of course, developers promise a lot, and often the game doesn't deliver or they couldn't implement it due to time-constraints, engine-limits or because they had to ditch the ideas. But as the player you can excuse that, or forgive them very easily if the game is still overall great.

But it is quite something different if said promise concerns the ending of a trilogy that has managed to captivate millions of players over the years, that was always praised for the interactivity and replay-value and for all its different variables. And of course for the possibility to shape and develop your own protagonist. They promised us that the game would have many different endings, taking all your choices into consideration, and promised us closure to OUR Shepard. But instead we got an ending that contradicts the lore, our choices, and the games themselves and furthermore are completely inconsistent and filled with so many plotholes that people are desperately trying to prove that it all had to be Indoctrination because otherwise it wouldn't make any sense at all. And to add insult to injury, we are left without any answers, without knowing how our choices played out after the defeat of the Reapers. Even worse, if the devs didn't contradict the lore they have established, the Mass Relays probably have purged all life in their proximity during their explosions. And even if they haven't, the combined fleets of the galactic community are stranded on a crippled and destroyed Earth.
So we don't even get no closure or sense of accomplishment, but we are left with the knowledge that the current cycle is most likely doomed to die a quite horrible death.

Yes, all three games prior to the ending are amazing. Not perfect, but amazing. But this is exactly what makes the ending even more puzzling, because within a few minutes, there is such an enormous drop of quality that you can't even believe you are playing the same game. The whole gameplay, the dynamics, the choice-system, the interactivity, all the choices you've made - everything is thrown out of the window. And many of us can't even start up a new ME - game, because what would be the point? All you do doesn't matter in the end anyway. The ending actually manages to overshadow the whole trilogy. Because no matter what you do, if you blow up the Collector Base or give it to TIM, or if you cure the genophage or manipulate it, no matter how many squadmates survived the SM or whether you saved the quarians or geth or united them, if you saved the original Council or let them die, if you chose Udina or Anderson as councilor - NOTHING matters in the ending we got. NOTHING. So why bother playing the games, why bother building your Shepard and staying true to their personality if you always get the same ending no matter what you do? I could kill off anybody and anything and STILL get the same ending. Well, in three different flavours.

That's why people are angry, and they have a right to be. Bioware might be a good gamedeveloper and they've produced a lot of wonderful games I love and count among my favourites, but that doesn't mean that any of us have to gladly accept everything they give us. And we all know some promises can't be kept and we are willing to accept that, because we understand that there are many factors that play into that. But if you actually manage to overthrow the whole series within 10 minutes of gameplay on the most important moment of the games, the moment you have been looking forward to for five years, then it shouldn't be just overlooked or taken without any word of critique. The end  to a journey is also very important, especially if we - the players - shaped the story just as much as the developers.

Modifié par Leninsaurus, 26 mars 2012 - 06:00 .

[TUHD]

Persephone wrote...

I'm no PR expert BUT:

It goes both ways.

The whole PR about the endings was goddam stupid. It kinda is NOT a lie if you consider the ENTIRE game and its many variables your personal ending... Still, a stretch.

The fire ignites. Silence.

I would have thought that after the unfair review bombing on MC , Bioware would be on alert....

The fire turns into a massive firestorm. Silence.

A petition is started, a charity supported.... Silence.

The game is review bombed, people are stooping to harassment, personal insults, accusing every positive review of being paid for without evidence...basically, everything you should NOT do, if you want to be taken seriously. (Desperate people will stoop to desperate methods)

An outright war begins, even journalists begin to take sides (I doubt their motives, no matter the choice)....

Bioware responds, even the founder of the company speaks up.

Only....too late. No matter how kindly Bioware might have intended these messages, when a certain line is crossed, emotions will overtake reason and no matter the intent, the offended party will lash out and refuse to be placated by words alone. (That MAY have worked out better if the collaboration between fans & devs over the endings had begun sooner). As someone who LOVED ME3 and is NOT heavily annoyed by the endings, I am still astounded by Bioware's stubborn silence that only made matters worse....wounds will fester if not attended to ASAP and Bioware found that out the hard way.

Does that justify review bombing, harassments, insults and NEW lies aka "The only difference is the color!" ? No.

But it puts the whole thing into perspective, for me at least.

+1
One thing though, the ones who do such idiotic things (personally I'd call them moronic more, but I'll keep it relative nice) like reviewbombing etc are a minority of a big group as far as I can tell. The reviewbombing with 0 and 1 marks at MC is outright dumb. So is giving the game 10s and 9,5s however, since the game lacks massively in the ending department and also slightly in other parts.
Harassing and insulting is in the same boat - while I wasn't surprised in the first week about the insults etc, people who keep on insulting are either trolls or need to stay away from a game if they keep on insulting if they don't like something. First reaction, fine, but afterwards?...