288 réponses à ce sujet

[knightnblu]

With all the doctorates that they have on staff, they should have seen this one a mile away. So no, I don't feel bad.

[Persephone]

Actinguy1 wrote...

I don't "rating troll" myself, but I don't disagree with these people.  When my friends ask me, I tell them not to buy Mass Effect 3.  Does it have incredible moments?  Of course.  But I tell them what to expect: The ending provides absolutely no closure, undoes every one of your choices, and you don't find out what happens to most of your crew.  Based on this feedback, they don't buy the game.  So, I guess that is a zero rating from me.

See, I'd rather let people form their own opinions. Do I say I loved the game? Sure. But I leave it up to them to decide if they should buy ME3 and I will not boycott it.

Never mind that damaging the sales isn't helping anyone. It'll only get stuff scrapped. (I.E. DAII expansion)

And ME3 does not deserve this at all.

[Costin_Razvan]

And ME3 does not deserve this at all.

In some ways it does. In others ways it doesn't. I love a lot of things about ME3, but I utterely despise others ( and by others I don't mean the ending choices and their consequeunces ),

And don't bring up the piece of dung that is DA2, thank God they ended that.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 26 mars 2012 - 06:36 .

[Persephone]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

TUHD wrote...

Problem is, just like Anonymous, it's an Internet-based movement. Everyone can say they're part of it, while it's impossible to keep it in check. The movement can't tell everyone on the Internet to be fair and civil when posting - it's impossible, even if you manage to reach everyone who's disappointed about the game, there are enough who won't listen and there are also people who are just trolling because of the trolling.
There are plenty of threads of people within the movement (including all of the 'leaders' (those who have organized stuff)) who have spoken out against the reviewbombing etc. Effective result? Those who are reasonable (the majority of the movement), have stopped with it if they did it at all. You can't control the rest.

The most extreme tend to make the the most noise. As long as they claim they are part of the movement, they are part of the movement. It's easy to dismiss their actions as non-representative, just like it's easy to dismiss the number of people actively campaigning against the ending as non-representative. It's a minority within a minority, but that's just how it is... the sorest thumbs stick out most.

Nail...has....been....HIT. THIS!

[Myrmedus]

rgretret wrote...

 In my opinion we should behave kinder towards Bioware, because they made a highly emotional game after all and just because the ending was disappointing for most of us, it doesn't mean that the rest of this masterpiece of a game was too.

In a perfect world, that'd be fine. However, I think most people feel if we'd been kind and pushed for the change like a wet noodle nothing would've come of it.

[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And ME3 does not deserve this at all.

In some ways it does. In others ways it doesn't. I love a lot of things about ME3, but I utterely despise others ( and by others I don't mean the ending choices and their consequeunces ),

And don't bring up the piece of dung that is DA2, thank God they ended that.

Maybe you are thankful they ended it. I was looking forward to more. I wasn't judging it, merely pointing out to where this will lead.

ME3 does not deserve this any more than TW2 deserves being sneered at for being sexist, not having 16 endings AT ALL (Three at best) or its rotten import system. (Even though each of these accusations contains some truth)

[Mazandus]

Kingofthebonggo wrote...

pjotroos wrote...

Kingofthebonggo wrote...

I ask all malcontents regarding the ending sequence this question: Was it easy for you to make the final choice about the future of the galaxy?

I'll give you one better. I honestly don't remember which one I picked - left or right. I could swear I turned left, cause that was the blue one, but then it turned out it's red on the left. So now I'm puzzled if I went left or went for blue. I remember bits of the outro but they're inconclusive. I do know I didn't pick the "best" one, synthesis, because I wasn't interested in playing dr Mengele. But otherwise, the choices were so bland, so repulsive and so downright uninspired I just picked one at random and hoped the story is gonna start making sense again.

The blue pill on the left and red on the right. I'm sorry that you found them to be uninspired. I found them to be postmodern in the way the problem was addressed. You can either try to control them, destroy them, or synthesize life. Anything else would not address the core issue of orgnaic versus synthetic wars. But that's how I feel and I'm not saying you're wrong. I just didn't find them to be as egregious as you did. Oh, and I remember my ending and it took me about 10 minutes to decide. I had that WTF moment you allude too but I didn't say F this I'm just gonna pick a random outcome so that it will hopefully make sense. I ended up killing synthetics because ultimately I spent three games trying to perserve the many different organic civilzations.

Where exactly is this "core issue" of  organic vs synthetic? The Reapers are monsters. Bioware/its fans can use whatever sci-fi/fantasy explanation to justify their stance, but when a stance is only justified by sci-fi/fantasy magic plot, it isn't really a stance. Harvesting organic entities and hurling them at the player as a never ending menagerie of grotesque space monsters does not equal organic vs synthetics. Giant squid ship "old machines" from "Dark Space" doesn't equal organic vs synthetic. It equals big scary monsters. Monsters do not need motivations, monsters do not need a catharsis of postmodern it was all for nothing ending. Monsters are at their best when they are unkowable.

You may argue that the Reapers are not monsters. The art design chosen for them as they attack you time and again would severely outweigh any hidden text found in a codex in any of the 3 games. Even if you beleve Mr Hudson (who apparently wrote the whole ending, alone) is some kind of genius, I do not see how you could not take offense at the QUALITY of the EXECUTION of the ending.

If the "core issue" was synthetics vs organics, should not then Shepard have been a synthetic all along? And thus should that not have been a theme throughout the game(s) rather than a throwaway line from Starchild and some distrust from Kaiden/Ashley? Or is this the vaunted peak of Bioware's storytelling powers? Shepard being a synthetic would certainly explain a great deal of things that are usually conveniently hidden behind Shepard's own plot armor. The Geth contacting him, the efffing Prothean beacon communicating with him, all the races seemingly trusting him with their most intimate and damning secrets, the reapers interest in him (this to me is the big one. Harbringer goes on and on and on and on about Shepard in ME2, and then EVEN SHOWS UP TO BLAST HIM IN ME3, after the reaper on Rannoch calls him by name, yet his significance is never explained, addressed, or given any 2nd thought beyond "shepard is teh heroz". ) his ability to seemingly defeat any foe with an avenger rifle.

And no, a non answer is not an answer. I would totally buy the ****ty ending, with the 3 choices, IF the execution was better. It was poor. ****** poor. If BW had revealed in the convo with TIM that Shepard was a synthetic all along hence the Repaer's interest in him it would have been a perfect mind **** to the player, and all at once conveyed all the "life sucks, you die, nothing you do matters" mantra they were trying to pull off wither their tri-color mass relay light show and crash landing on Land of The Lost. They didn't. Instead of talking to Harbinger, you get Starchild. Instead of the mind **** you get a throwaway line from a throwaway character about Shepard being part synthetic.


In conclusion, I dare BW and yourself to show me how the "core issue" of the series has been organic vs synthetics. I see it as a side story in the Quarians and Geth, and a side story of EDI becoming DATA (with boobs). The rest of the series is about a guy running errands for a bunch of ****s so he can get their support to, stop soverign, stop the collectors, and finally stop the reapers. Every 50,000 years the reapers harvest organic life and then vanish. This isn't about synthetics vs organics (and even if it was all the reapers are doing is exactly what they are trying to prevent) its about a bunch of flying squid trash compactors sucking up all ife they encounter. Wasn't that a Douglas Adams novel? And didn't he do it about 400 times better?


My point is, whatever they feel the "core issue" was, they did a terrible job in telling it. As a consumer I am pissed off I bothered wasting my time and money for something any group of 5 forum members could probably do better.

[WildcardCharlie]

Once again I think it needs to be explained that Bioware is not a group of "people to be nice to", it is a corporation that wants your money like every other corporation.

They are not your friends.

[Costin_Razvan]

Persephone, the problems of the Witcher 2's story don't ****ing compare to the bull**** of Cerberus and the Catalyst, and don't you ****ing dare to compare them. Yes I am still pissed about Shani, btw.

ME3 deserves to be flamed for all the retarded crap they did in those 2 regards, things is most people are barking the wrong things.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 26 mars 2012 - 06:43 .

[CrazyRah]

No we're being completely fair as long as we don't go over the line and start to threaten the devs and such. Bioware did a few things that pissed of people and that's more than the ending

[kjir]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And ME3 does not deserve this at all.

In some ways it does. In others ways it doesn't. I love a lot of things about ME3, but I utterely despise others ( and by others I don't mean the ending choices and their consequeunces ),

And don't bring up the piece of dung that is DA2, thank God they ended that.

That's basically my feeling. Mass Effect 3 certainly has great moments-- Mordin ending the genophage, the Geth-Quarian conflict, moments like that were strong character pieces in the narrative cluster**** that is total galactic war that BioWare could have abused more awfully. They didn't. However, that ending almost obliterated all the triumphs they had to the point that I felt no satisfaction at all from beating the game. 

Also I love how your comment was made with Jim Raynor's face. That's probably where I'm going next after this, I think I'm done buying BioWare for the decade.

[Actinguy1]

Persephone wrote...

Actinguy1 wrote...

I don't "rating troll" myself, but I don't disagree with these people.  When my friends ask me, I tell them not to buy Mass Effect 3.  Does it have incredible moments?  Of course.  But I tell them what to expect: The ending provides absolutely no closure, undoes every one of your choices, and you don't find out what happens to most of your crew.  Based on this feedback, they don't buy the game.  So, I guess that is a zero rating from me.

See, I'd rather let people form their own opinions. Do I say I loved the game? Sure. But I leave it up to them to decide if they should buy ME3 and I will not boycott it.

Never mind that damaging the sales isn't helping anyone. It'll only get stuff scrapped. (I.E. DAII expansion)

And ME3 does not deserve this at all.

I'm not stopping anyone from buying the game.  I'm telling them my honest opinion...that the game has great moments (not a great game overall, but great moments)....that are completely destroyed by the ending.  I give them reasons, without specific spoilers.  That they choose not to buy the game after I tell them this IS them deciding whether they will buy the game or not.  They are choosing not, because they expected a true ending.

I can't boycott the game.  I've already bought it.

[JPR1964]

Persephone wrote...

Actinguy1 wrote...

I don't "rating troll" myself, but I don't disagree with these people.  When my friends ask me, I tell them not to buy Mass Effect 3.  Does it have incredible moments?  Of course.  But I tell them what to expect: The ending provides absolutely no closure, undoes every one of your choices, and you don't find out what happens to most of your crew.  Based on this feedback, they don't buy the game.  So, I guess that is a zero rating from me.

See, I'd rather let people form their own opinions. Do I say I loved the game? Sure. But I leave it up to them to decide if they should buy ME3 and I will not boycott it.

Never mind that damaging the sales isn't helping anyone. It'll only get stuff scrapped. (I.E. DAII expansion)

And ME3 does not deserve this at all.

What?!? 

My friends ask me for advice and I give them straight...

First I don't think that ME3 without the ending deserve a 10/10... It's a very good game, but not perfect...

Second, the end ruins for me all the rest of the game and the replay value...

Third, if I'd had the smallest insight about the end of the game, NEVER I had bought it at 80 euros... Never...

Lot of promises never held...

Then, if my review of the game hurt their sales : glad to hear it...

At this moment, I feel like I have been stolen...

JPR out!

[Mazandus]

pjotroos wrote...

Kingofthebonggo wrote...

pjotroos wrote...

Kingofthebonggo wrote...

I ask all malcontents regarding the ending sequence this question: Was it easy for you to make the final choice about the future of the galaxy?

I'll give you one better. I honestly don't remember which one I picked - left or right. I could swear I turned left, cause that was the blue one, but then it turned out it's red on the left. So now I'm puzzled if I went left or went for blue. I remember bits of the outro but they're inconclusive. I do know I didn't pick the "best" one, synthesis, because I wasn't interested in playing dr Mengele. But otherwise, the choices were so bland, so repulsive and so downright uninspired I just picked one at random and hoped the story is gonna start making sense again.

The blue pill on the left and red on the right. I'm sorry that you found them to be uninspired. I found them to be postmodern in the way the problem was addressed. You can either try to control them, destroy them, or synthesize life. Anything else would not address the core issue of orgnaic versus synthetic wars. But that's how I feel and I'm not saying you're wrong. I just didn't find them to be as egregious as you did. Oh, and I remember my ending and it took me about 10 minutes to decide. I had that WTF moment you allude too but I didn't say F this I'm just gonna pick a random outcome so that it will hopefully make sense. I ended up killing synthetics because ultimately I spent three games trying to perserve the many different organic civilzations.

Likewise, I'm not berating you for enjoying the ending. I sincerely wish I could find it as inspired as you did. It all comes down to what we expected from the game,  I suppose. I was after the personal journey. You were interested in a parable. The weakness of the ending is that they couldn't do the second without crushing the first. If the "destroy" option ended as rejecting catalyst logic and choosing open hostility instead of the two "peace offerings", and let us test our mettle against the reapers without catalyst intervening either way, it would already be a little better. It would be better still if their former reasoning was not crushed in such heavyhanded way - if we were speaking there to a Harbringer, arguing that life as we live it is weak, ineffective and will lead us to our destruction. That their form is pure and final - united, singleminded, eternal. The sudden shift from fighting those ancient creatures to negotiating terms of surrender with a little boy that explains reapers are his playthings is just so jarring I can't look past it.

this.

[michael99887766]

I think Bioware is thoroughly awesome: it has given us some great games and clearly has a lot of intelligent and passionate employees.

However, it dropped the ball majorly at the end of ME3. It's fair enough to criticise it for this (though not to lower the tone or resort to silly and degrading insults). Bioware reaped the rewards of quality through Collector's Editions, DLC, books, memorabilia and fans talking up the series and the studio. If it can take the praise it can take a bit of punishment.

Modifié par michael99887766, 26 mars 2012 - 06:47 .

[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Persephone, the problems of the Witcher 2's story don't ****ing compare to the bull**** of Cerberus and the Catalyst, and don't you ****ing dare to compare them.

What compares to what depends on each and every individual's priorties. And why not compare them? Are those games sacrosanct? A feminist is more likely to be outraged at the sexist attitude presented in both Witcher games while I, a non feminist, don't care much about that.

Cerberus.....them going "too far" isn't far fetched....the execution could have been better or more complex however.

The Catalyst is, IMHO, a hack job/missed opportunity.

Again, I like both games equally. ME3 outdid TW2 in several ways while there will always be certain matters where I don't expect the Witcher series to be outdone in years to come.

[Skypezee]

Most people I've spoken to, myself included, consider ME3 to be really great. It's just that the ending was very disappointing and out of place. Whether DLCs will bring everything to full circle or not, we'll just have to wait and see. But if the real endings are being created as DLC, then that's really crappy because something like that should already be in the game. DLCs should only be something extra and not necessary to enjoy the actual experience.

And yes, I admit to also losing the will to replay any ME games. As much as I want to, the endings just leave me very unfulfilled.

[LeftyLike2]

I agree that some are really unfair towards them..some even hostile..

But i think there are also alot of people that can discuss it rationally, rather than just calling people stupid for not seeing this or that, or calling Mass Effect's writers dumb even without knowing if there is more to the ending..(let's say the indoctrination theory is true) they might have made one of the most memorable endings ever.

If they had reveled that it was idoctrination right after you make your choice, you would reload, and chose the "right" choice.

I don't know if the indoctrination theory is true or if they have another clever ending in store, OR if this is it, and they didn't originally have any plans on releasing any post-ending DLC.
I don't know, and neither does the people who judge Bioware.

I will judge when i have seen everything..
even then - even if the ending is still dissapointing - i won't swear never to buy bioware games ever again and write novels about how horrible the writers are. They wrote what they think is a good ending, i just happen to disagree.


So..instead of giving them a hard time about the ending..i will forget the last 15 minutes of my Mass Effect experience, and thank them for the previous hundreds of hours, thank you.



tl;dr
I spent how long on this, and you didn't even spend 30 seconds of your life to read it!?

Modifié par LeftyLike2, 26 mars 2012 - 06:50 .

[iheartbob]

VoodooDrackus wrote...

If you consider Mass Effect 3 a product that you consume and you think you were served what you described, then return the product for a full refund (which you can in fact do).

Also you mention never eating there again. So. I. Am. Not. Sure. Why. You. Are. Still. Here.

The people who are unhappy with the endings but still here on these foums are here because they still have some sliver of faith left in a game and a company they have stood by for so long. 

As for whether people are being a bit unfair ...

Some people are being unfair, that's for sure, but not everyone.  There's nothing wrong with expressing your displeasure over a product you paid money for that failed to deliver what it promissed to you.  Not everyone has to agree that the game failed to deliver, or to the degree, and that's within everyone's right as a consumer.  The difference is that some people are tactful in voicing their discontent and others are not.

And this happens on both sides of the endings debate. 

[Headcount]

This needed to be stated loudly and very clearly why we had a problem with the endings for ME3 without crossing the line of personal attacks.  We woke Bioware up and although we won't know how they'll fix the mess they created for themselves, its safe to say they won't do this again.  Just look at DA3 as a prime example. 

www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/03/19/bioware-working-on-dragon-age-3-looking-seriously-at-endings/

[Persephone]

LeftyLike2 wrote...

I agree that some are really unfair towards them..some even hostile..

But i think there are also alot of people that can discuss it rationally, rather than just calling people stupid for not seeing this or that, or calling Mass Effect's writers dumb even without knowing if there is more to the ending..(let's say the indoctrination theory is true) they might have made one of the most memorable endings ever.

If they had reveled that it was idoctrination right after you make your choice, you would reload, and chose the "right" choice.

I don't know if the indoctrination theory is true or if they have another clever ending in store, OR if this is it, and they didn't originally have any plans on releasing any post-ending DLC.
I don't know, and neither does the people who judge Bioware.

I will judge when i have seen everything..
even then - even if the ending is still dissapointing - i won't swear never to buy bioware games ever again and write novels about how horrible the writers are. They wrote what they think is a good ending, i just happen to disagree.


So..instead of giving them a hard time about the ending..i will forget the last 15 minutes of my Mass Effect experience, and thank them for the previous hundreds of hours, thank you.

tl;dr
I spent how long on this, and you didn't even spend 30 seconds reading it!?

Read it all. Well said!

[RiGoRmOrTiS_UK]

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Once again I think it needs to be explained that Bioware is not a group of "people to be nice to", it is a corporation that wants your money like every other corporation.

They are not your friends.

^ ^ This. ^ ^


Bioware are a company, a developer. You should neither be their friends or a fan. However! That doesn't mean you shouldn't treat them with respect.. so personal insults are a no go..

They are a company making a product for you to consume.. nothing more..

.. you wouldn't be a fan of the person who owns your local Walmart franchise so neither should you be a "fan" of Bioware. Merely a concerned consumer.

There is nothing worse than a fan(atic)..

As such; whenever you feel a product isn't up to scratch you should voice your dissatisfaction without fear of being called "entitled". The gaming media have drummed up this pathetic insult to protect their "investors" ( EA, Activision etc..) who pay for  review scores and advertising space.

Modifié par RiGoRmOrTiS_UK, 26 mars 2012 - 06:52 .

[Elite Midget]

We will be kinder when Bioware delivers what they promised.

[Tommytsunami]

I believe we should still be critical about the ending, but letting our disdain for the ending boil down to name calling and attacks on the character of Bioware employees is a bit too far. Bioware needs to know, and at this point I'm sure they are aware, that we are unhappy with the ending. We need to do this in a civil manner though or the fans will NEVER get the ending(s) we want.

[fafnir magnus]

assuming the rest of the game was a masterpiece is a bit of a stretch. Bioware games have always been a bit lacking in the gameplay department, with the exception of DA2(which was hated for other reasons). The story is meant to make up for poor gameplay design. When the story collapses, there is no excuse as to why they avoided being more innovative with level designs, exploration, or combat. I'm sorry, but cover-based shooting is not a masterpiece, and making the final level Gears of Mass Effect 3 is not impressive. Yes, the story moments like tuchanka were nice, beautiful even, but are undermined by the bad decisions for story at the end.

TL;DR Endings are important to the overall story, and if you can't make a good ending you'd better have some good gameplay to keep the game rolling. People played through crappy-mediocre gameplay in ME 1 and ME 2 because the story was intriguing, and it was enjoyable to create numerous permutations on your stories. ME 3 fails to have the enjoyable conclusion that made the other two so great, and thus is not worth revisiting a second or third time.