318 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

Well, that might be true of a Destroyer class, but it's hard to shoot down ships or escaping shuttles with your eyeholes plated up, yes?

[Geneaux486]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Well, that might be true of a Destroyer class, but it's hard to shoot down ships or escaping shuttles with your eyeholes plated up, yes?

Yes, but they'd get mad bragging rights if they pulled it off.  Even Harbinger would owe a Destroyer a tentaclebump for that one.

[Amaranthy]

It would have been possible to conventionally beat the Reapers at the final battle if there was any focus fire but then you must remember that the Reapers were spread out around the whole Galaxy.

At some point, Alliance forces would have just ran out of ships to fight the Reapers.

It wouldn't make sense beating them conventionally even storywise. It beats the whole godlike status they had during the whole game. Even if they did manage to wipe out all the Reapers conventionally, it would have caused some important plot holes, like why weren't the Protheans able to beat them since they were more advanced than the current races.

Modifié par Amaranthy, 26 mars 2012 - 10:08 .

[Wildhide]

Don't forget that the Javik admits the Protheans lost because they had no diversity of tactics, which you have because you didn't become an empire that performed hostile take-overs of the other races.

Also, that the Reapers in all other cycles won conventionally by springing the Citadel trap, cutting everyone off, and picking them off system by system over centuries, using their inability to be counter-attacked to restore their forces.

They don't have either advantage this time around. As they're facing a diverse force with tech as high as Thanix cannons that isn't isolated or cut off from itself. A conventional war is far more plausible based on in-game experiences and information than the characters try to tell you.

[Wildhide]

Amaranthy wrote...

It would have been possible to conventionally beat the Reapers at the final battle if there was any focus fire but then you must remember that the Reapers were spread out around the whole Galaxy.

At some point, Alliance forces would have just ran out of ships to fight the Reapers.

It wouldn't make sense beating them conventionally even storywise. It beats the whole godlike status they had during the whole game. Even if they did manage to wipe out all the Reapers conventionally, it would have caused some important plot holes, like why weren't the Protheans able to beat them since they were more advanced than the current races.

See my post above, Javik points out they were so uniform they had no adaptation in their strategies, and being cut off the Reapers saw the same strategies play out over and over again because the protheans didn't know what had been tried or other doctrines.

And every Prothean system was cut off from all the others.

[Sepharih]

RiouHotaru wrote...

 OP, your examples are flawed for a few reasons:

A) Sovereign was only defeated in a timely manner because he "assumed control" of Saren's corpse.  When that died, Sovereign died with it.  So that's NOT a conventional example.

The dead Reaper in ME2 was said to be destroyed by a Mass Effect cannon so strong is tore a hunk out of an ENTIRE planet.  If that's "conventional" then I think you have an odd definition of what "conventional" means.

C) The Human Reaper was stated very explicitly by EDI to be in it's earliest stages of development.  EARLIEST.  And we know canonically that the Larva would've been the core of a reaper, with the ship as it's shell.  So it's not even what one would call a standard Reaper.

D) The mother of all Thresher Maws is considered "conventional"?  Really?

E) That was because they were aiming for one specific point on the Reaper, and that was a Destroyer-class Reaper as well.  Remember how much damage the Sovereign-class did to the Fleet in ME1?

F) Once again, Destroyer class, significantly smaller and far less armed.

My examples are perfectly valid for the argument I'm making.

I repeat:  I AM ARGUING FROM A STORYTELLING STANDPOINT!!!!!!!!

I will now quote my post on the first page:

Sepharih wrote... 
I know that all the examples I have cited can be explained away by lore such as "this was a smaller reaper" or "this one took the combined might of the whole fleet", or "that was just one Reaper".  But citing such examples misses my entire point about show versus tell.

If you want to tell a story that shows the player that the reapers cannot be defeated conventionally then you should not have them defeat the reapers conventionally at almost every story beat.  

and also:

Sepharih wrote...  
Admitedly "conventional" is something of a misnomer on my part.  As has been pointed out, most of the times Shepard has succeded has been through decidedly unconventional methods.
What I really mean by "conventional" is actually over the top hollywood style heroics that employ "conventional" means and weapons....not a plot device which may or may not be a deus ex machina. 

Modifié par Sepharih, 26 mars 2012 - 10:34 .

[RiouHotaru]

...But even if the means used are "conventional" (I'll still argue that a Thresher Maw is as FAR from coventional as you can possibly get), the circumstances are extraordinary, which excuses the conventional means.

It's not a circumstance you can reliably reproduce over and voer again.

[Sepharih]

RiouHotaru wrote...

...But even if the means used are "conventional" (I'll still argue that a Thresher Maw is as FAR from coventional as you can possibly get), the circumstances are extraordinary, which excuses the conventional means.

It's not a circumstance you can reliably reproduce over and voer again.

But, against all odds, Shepard keeps doing it.  That's the point I'm getting at.  There's an infinite number of ways a writer can establish new lore or wave away old lore.  The real question is: what does the story really call for?

In this case....I find the story called for an epic dramatic confrontation against all odds.....not some cheap energy wave.  It fits with the themes of the story more.  As for how the hell the galactic fleet would be able to?  To that i'd say "Get on it writers, this is what we pay you for."

[Corvus74]

Yes, they could be defeated conventionally.

The Reapers may have been more advanced, but they had been technically and tactically stagnant for millions of years. In ME2 you board a 37 million year old reaper that is exactly the same as current reapers and take its IFF to use. Think of that - in 37 million years they haven't changed their IFF.

Their tactics have also been always the same - to avoid a direct confrontation at all costs. Instead they hit the Citadel, decapitate the leadership, shut down the mass relays and pick off the small isolated pockets one at a time, and even that takes centuries.

This time is different. They can't do that so the try plans B, C & D. First they try the Rachni. That fails.

Then they try Saren. That spectacularly fails. Even with a fleet of Geth that outnumbers the surprised defenders of the Citadel, Sovereign looses. In the process he alerts the current cycle to the existance of the Reapers and allows them to reverse engineer Reaper tech in the form of Thanix weaponry, which can be mounted on everything including fighters. Without his shields, Sovereign isn't that hard to destroy, and Thanix weaponry is specificaly stated as to ignore shields.

Then they try the Collectors and that too fails.

So out comes Plan E - a direct attack, which would imply that they really didn't want to do it. They strike at homeworlds first, trying to isolate and divide the races, but that fails and they get the one thing they didn't want - a truly unified Galaxy facing them down.

From the codex we know a few things. That the Turians by themselves, and not even their whole fleet, took down a number of capital ships. That the vast majority of Reaper forces are in fact destroyers, and said destroyers can be destroyed by a single cruiser, or even fighters.

Then we come to the final battle at Earth. The Reapers are stated to have pulled back most of their forces in an effort to defend the Citadel. Even so they are shown to be badly outnumbered by the combined might of the allied fleet - and that was only Sword fleet. Shield fleet hangs back defending the cruicible.

The allied fleet numbers in the tens of thousands. (We know the Quarians had 50,000 ships in their fleet, and the Geth seemed to have a similar number. Even with losses, if you get both on side, that adds, what, 60-80,000 ships to your force alone?)

The Reapers force looks small in comparison (and again is mostly destroyers). In the hundreds, maybe thousands.

What fact overlooked is the Geth. As true AI, they can't be indoctrinated, can't be taken over anymore, they don't rest or slack off and work at peak efficiency. They could churn out ships at a prodigious rate, and going by the Geth dreadnaught we saw, they can make very powerful ships. I'd not be surprised if those Geth Dreadnaughts could go one on one with a Reaper capital ship.

If would have been the height of irony if they very thing that the Reapers were trying to stop (synthetic AI) were the very thing that ended the Reaper threat and saved the galaxy for all sentients.

Modifié par Corvus74, 26 mars 2012 - 10:53 .

[Messi Kossmann]

Modifié par Messi Kossmann, 26 mars 2012 - 10:58 .

[Nightdragon8]

also what gets me is the fact hat the ships in space missed so much or wasn't even aiming... I mean after that whole speech in ME2 about "how Newton kills" and the importance of aimming correctly, it seems Most of the gunners in the fleet are worse than the guy from Spaceballs... Gunnersmate Phillip A******

Also everyone knows that really the Crucible is a big Dues Ex Machina (basicly a plot device ment to save evryone.

[Positronics]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

also what gets me is the fact hat the ships in space missed so much or wasn't even aiming... I mean after that whole speech in ME2 about "how Newton kills" and the importance of aimming correctly, it seems Most of the gunners in the fleet are worse than the guy from Spaceballs... Gunnersmate Phillip A******

Also everyone knows that really the Crucible is a big Dues Ex Machina (basicly a plot device ment to save evryone.

Crucible is not a Deus Ex Machina... They tell you about the Crucible -and- the Catalsyt within the first part of ME3, if you think that's Deus Ex Machina you need to go back to highschool english class.

It's telegraphed to you the ENTIRE ****ING STORY that the Crucible is the only thing that can defeat the Reapers and is fully capable of destroying or controlling the reapers, both of which are clear cut options at the end. HTF is it Deus Ex Machina then??? What'd you think the Crucible was going to do instead of destroying the Reapers, make you a sandwhich?

Deus Ex Machina would have been if the Reapers all suddenly got a virus and died, or if another race of super-advanced aliens came out of no where at the very end and killed them all, or if a MIRACLE happened and the Alliance laughably defeated them conventionally as the OP wants.

THAT would be Deus Ex Machina.

[Teh Jzzb]

I would have at least loved the opprotunity to try conventional warfare, in fact when I first started I thought I'd be able to ignore the Crucible and try conventional war, but Shep just went with it.

Modifié par Teh Jzzb, 26 mars 2012 - 11:16 .

[The Night Mammoth]

I understand entirely OP, and wholeheartedly agree. In keeping with Shepard's character aside, yes, you should have been able to at least have a go, even if it results in your defeat because you haven't prepared or made the right decisions, a la ME2's Suicide Mission.

On whether it would actually be possible from an internal story view, well, yes, you should be able to. It's fighting conventionally which gives you a chance, simply because it's exactly the kind of confrontation the Reapers try to avoid, by controlling the Mass Relays and killing off galactic government in one fowl swoop. They've adopted a divide and conquer attitude which hasn't changed for millions of years, I'd doubt whether they've face the galaxy united before. Like I said before, it shouldn't guarantee success.

[The Night Mammoth]

Positronics wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

also what gets me is the fact hat the ships in space missed so much or wasn't even aiming... I mean after that whole speech in ME2 about "how Newton kills" and the importance of aimming correctly, it seems Most of the gunners in the fleet are worse than the guy from Spaceballs... Gunnersmate Phillip A******

Also everyone knows that really the Crucible is a big Dues Ex Machina (basicly a plot device ment to save evryone.

Crucible is not a Deus Ex Machina... They tell you about the Crucible -and- the Catalsyt within the first part of ME3, if you think that's Deus Ex Machina you need to go back to highschool english class.

It's telegraphed to you the ENTIRE ****ING STORY that the Crucible is the only thing that can defeat the Reapers and is fully capable of destroying or controlling the reapers, both of which are clear cut options at the end. HTF is it Deus Ex Machina then??? What'd you think the Crucible was going to do instead of destroying the Reapers, make you a sandwhich?

Deus Ex Machina would have been if the Reapers all suddenly got a virus and died, or if another race of super-advanced aliens came out of no where at the very end and killed them all, or if a MIRACLE happened and the Alliance laughably defeated them conventionally as the OP wants.

THAT would be Deus Ex Machina.

It's a Deus Ex Maguffina. It appears at the beginning of the game without a shred of prior reference, and is used as a convenient tool for the writers to avoid having to explain how you defeat the Reapers through open war. 

It's a Maguffin because you aren't actually told what it is or what it does. It's called the Crucible, and it stops the Reapers. There are some minor details about it being huge and advanced, but you are never shown it until the end and never given an explanation as to how it works.

The Catalyst is a Deus Ex, in pretty much every sense of the phrase. 

The Citadel is a Chekov's Gun. 

[Sepharih]

Positronics wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

also what gets me is the fact hat the ships in space missed so much or wasn't even aiming... I mean after that whole speech in ME2 about "how Newton kills" and the importance of aimming correctly, it seems Most of the gunners in the fleet are worse than the guy from Spaceballs... Gunnersmate Phillip A******

Also everyone knows that really the Crucible is a big Dues Ex Machina (basicly a plot device ment to save evryone.

Crucible is not a Deus Ex Machina... They tell you about the Crucible -and- the Catalsyt within the first part of ME3, if you think that's Deus Ex Machina you need to go back to highschool english class.

It's telegraphed to you the ENTIRE ****ING STORY that the Crucible is the only thing that can defeat the Reapers and is fully capable of destroying or controlling the reapers, both of which are clear cut options at the end. HTF is it Deus Ex Machina then??? What'd you think the Crucible was going to do instead of destroying the Reapers, make you a sandwhich?

Deus Ex Machina would have been if the Reapers all suddenly got a virus and died, or if another race of super-advanced aliens came out of no where at the very end and killed them all, or if a MIRACLE happened and the Alliance laughably defeated them conventionally as the OP wants.

THAT would be Deus Ex Machina.

How is the army that you've built up for the entirety of the freaking game a Deus Ex machina?

I agree that the Crucible is more a macguffin...but you know what I would argue for?

The Catalyst.  Aside from the fact that he fits the bill perfectly in a classic greek theater sense, he also is a character we've never been introduced to before the last five minutes of the game and he suddenly and randomely presents us with a solution to resolve the conflict immediately and decisively that was never even hinted at before (synthesis).

Edit: 
Lol...
The Night Mammoth beat me too it.

Modifié par Sepharih, 26 mars 2012 - 11:29 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Geneaux486 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

And the Reapers could have charged the a Citadel, turned off all the Relays and killed us.

Pretty much have to remember than the Reapers outnumber us by a ****ton at Earth, and they have more spread out over the galaxy at the final battle.

They outgun and outmaneuver us.

And those two Reapers we killed in a totally contrived way through their eyeholes? Well they don't actually have to open those to kill us.

Actually the exposed weakpoint is a firing chamber.  Remember what Shepard said?  When it's being "primed" it's a weakpoint that can be shot at.  The reaper HAS to open it's plates to fire at you.

I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong) Gnusmas may have been referring to the fact that they could also just stomp on you or something.  I'm sure everyone remembers Soveriegn just plowing through one of those big ships at the Citadel.  "**** I got stuff to do, outta my way."

Exactly. At least for both of the boss fights, you only live due to plot-stupid.

Just like Reapers losing is only possible due to plot-stupid.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 26 mars 2012 - 11:29 .

[TeaKae421]

Corvus74 wrote...From the codex we know a few things. That the Turians by themselves, and not even their whole fleet, took down a number of capital ships. That the vast majority of Reaper forces are in fact destroyers, and said destroyers can be destroyed by a single cruiser, or even fighters.

That's what did it for me. The idea that the Turians could destroy Reaper capital ships, using a very smart, but entirely conventional strategy. Using the Reapers enormous size and slow turning speed against them, by getting stuck into their formation and attacking at point blank range, before the Reapers could turn to counter.

You really can't get any more conventional than a tried and tested military tactic, unless flanking is some crazy, new age thinking in the ME universe.

The Turians lost that battle, suffering huge casualties, but then they didn't have 10s of thousands of ships, fully prepared to assault the Reapers.

[Sepharih]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

And the Reapers could have charged the a Citadel, turned off all the Relays and killed us.

Pretty much have to remember than the Reapers outnumber us by a ****ton at Earth, and they have more spread out over the galaxy at the final battle.

They outgun and outmaneuver us.

And those two Reapers we killed in a totally contrived way through their eyeholes? Well they don't actually have to open those to kill us.

Actually the exposed weakpoint is a firing chamber.  Remember what Shepard said?  When it's being "primed" it's a weakpoint that can be shot at.  The reaper HAS to open it's plates to fire at you.

I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong) Gnusmas may have been referring to the fact that they could also just stomp on you or something.  I'm sure everyone remembers Soveriegn just plowing through one of those big ships at the Citadel.  "**** I got stuff to do, outta my way."

Exactly. At least for both of the boss fights, you only live due to plot-stupid.

Just like Reapers losing is only possible due to plot-stupid.

As it stands currently in the final product, the Reapers losing is still only possible due to plot-stupid.  In almost any concievable scenario that anybody can imagine, the Reapers losing is only possible due to plot-stupid.

If we're going to deal with some form of "plot-stupid" anyway, I would prefer the version that follows through with the established themes of the series.

[jarms48]

People must remember Sovereign was supported by a heretic Geth Fleet.

[Militarized]

Thought I'd point this out, it's in the Codex.

"Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated."

So... even Bioware seems to have changed their tune a bit.

I also suggest everyone read "The Miracle Of Palaven" in their Codex, it reads as if they killed a lot of Reapers. 

Modifié par Militarized, 26 mars 2012 - 11:52 .

[Elyiia]

Conventional warfare, with a full fleet we might win.
Unconventional warfare, with a full fleet, I think we'd win easily.
Anti-matter based ammunition, we'd win a fight against the entire Reaper force in 10 seconds.

Hell, the Reapers show up if the Normandy scans too much. Just put the entire fleet in one spot and spam scan until they're all dead :3

[RiouHotaru]

Sepharih wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

...But even if the means used are "conventional" (I'll still argue that a Thresher Maw is as FAR from coventional as you can possibly get), the circumstances are extraordinary, which excuses the conventional means.

It's not a circumstance you can reliably reproduce over and voer again.

But, against all odds, Shepard keeps doing it.  That's the point I'm getting at.  There's an infinite number of ways a writer can establish new lore or wave away old lore.  The real question is: what does the story really call for?

In this case....I find the story called for an epic dramatic confrontation against all odds.....not some cheap energy wave.  It fits with the themes of the story more.  As for how the hell the galactic fleet would be able to?  To that i'd say "Get on it writers, this is what we pay you for."

That Shepard succeds "against all odds" is just because Shepard is Shepard.  (Also because Shepard is the protagonist).  But that doesn't mean Shepard should be able to succeed when it's clearly obvious he/she can't, case in point, the Fleet vs. The Reapers.

[MrDizazta]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Positronics wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

also what gets me is the fact hat the ships in space missed so much or wasn't even aiming... I mean after that whole speech in ME2 about "how Newton kills" and the importance of aimming correctly, it seems Most of the gunners in the fleet are worse than the guy from Spaceballs... Gunnersmate Phillip A******

Also everyone knows that really the Crucible is a big Dues Ex Machina (basicly a plot device ment to save evryone.

Crucible is not a Deus Ex Machina... They tell you about the Crucible -and- the Catalsyt within the first part of ME3, if you think that's Deus Ex Machina you need to go back to highschool english class.

It's telegraphed to you the ENTIRE ****ING STORY that the Crucible is the only thing that can defeat the Reapers and is fully capable of destroying or controlling the reapers, both of which are clear cut options at the end. HTF is it Deus Ex Machina then??? What'd you think the Crucible was going to do instead of destroying the Reapers, make you a sandwhich?

Deus Ex Machina would have been if the Reapers all suddenly got a virus and died, or if another race of super-advanced aliens came out of no where at the very end and killed them all, or if a MIRACLE happened and the Alliance laughably defeated them conventionally as the OP wants.

THAT would be Deus Ex Machina.

It's a Deus Ex Maguffina. It appears at the beginning of the game without a shred of prior reference, and is used as a convenient tool for the writers to avoid having to explain how you defeat the Reapers through open war. 

It's a Maguffin because you aren't actually told what it is or what it does. It's called the Crucible, and it stops the Reapers. There are some minor details about it being huge and advanced, but you are never shown it until the end and never given an explanation as to how it works.

The Catalyst is a Deus Ex, in pretty much every sense of the phrase. 

The Citadel is a Chekov's Gun. 

The Catalyst isn't a Deus ex, its a damn Diabolus ex Machina

[Positronics]

You're using Macguffin and Cherkov's Gun like they are negative connotations attached to it.

Hint: Just because a literary device has a name to identify it (like hitchcock's Macguffin or Cherkov's Gun) does -not- mean that it is somehow bad.

BTW, the Crucible and the Catalyst is not a Macguffin.

It's in writing terms a "decisive plot device". Both the Crucible -and- the Catalyst is explained in the first hours of the story, and while we don't know how it all works (you don't know how the Reapers work, either) we do know it's function from the outset.

The Miracle at Palaven was a grinding stalemate that cost large swaths of Turian population on suicide runs that the Reapers would have eventually overcome. EVERY ****ing major population and production center in the galaxy was done for.

No one can clearly explain to me exactly how the three gargantuan Reaper concentrations on Earth, Palaven, and Thessia could have been overcome by that Combined Fleet that couldn't even handle one group, let alone defeat all the Reapers in the galaxy.

You are told constantly they can't be defeated by conventional means, so get it through your skulls: THE REAPERS CAN'T LOSE IN A SLUGFEST.

The end.