318 réponses à ce sujet

[Baronesa]

Militarized wrote...

Thought I'd point this out, it's in the Codex.

"Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated."

So... even Bioware seems to have changed their tune a bit.

I also suggest everyone read "The Miracle Of Palaven" in their Codex, it reads as if they killed a lot of Reapers. 

Indeed... would not be easy, of course, but it is possible...

Of course goign for this kind of victory, we should just forget about Thessia and Earth and concentrate on winnable worlds, such as Palaven, probably Irune and Dakuuna. By attacking places that have weaker Reaper's pressence you cut down their numbers and potentially force them to reinforce recently liberated systems, weakening their main fleet as well.

[Militarized]

Baronesa wrote...

Militarized wrote...

Thought I'd point this out, it's in the Codex.

"Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated."

So... even Bioware seems to have changed their tune a bit.

I also suggest everyone read "The Miracle Of Palaven" in their Codex, it reads as if they killed a lot of Reapers. 

Indeed... would not be easy, of course, but it is possible...

Of course goign for this kind of victory, we should just forget about Thessia and Earth and concentrate on winnable worlds, such as Palaven, probably Irune and Dakuuna. By attacking places that have weaker Reaper's pressence you cut down their numbers and potentially force them to reinforce recently liberated systems, weakening their main fleet as well.

Yeah but Earth is chosen more for a narrative perspective, which I agree is reasonable. They could have done some writing to make it seem more feasible but whatever. 

They should have just mass produced ships with thanix cannons then the crucible... We(America) did that with our navy during World War 2. I don't see it being much different. 

[Falcon509]

Stop using Sovereign as an example for why the Reapers are undefeatable in open warfare. Sovereign staged a surprise attack on the Citadel and was accompanied by whole armadas of Geth destroyers and dreadnoughts... That's a bad example to call on. If anything, that example only serves to prove the OP's point.

[Hatikvah07]

Word. The codex itself drops some major hints that it's possible to defeat the Reapers conventionally, what with them basically dropping their shields to make planetfall. I still don't think that defeating them in a straight up fight is possible, it's not crazy to imagine some scenarios where the Fleet could have evened the odds.

That said, I still think that the story managed to give you the moments of "**** yeah, I just killed a Reaper!" and balanced them out with "Oh, it was one of the tiny ones. And there are a million more." Complain all you want about how the Crucible is a "Deus Ex Machina" (even though it's not), but if ME3 had involved simply shooting the Reapers to death we would have complained just as hard. They needed a superweapon of SOME kind to finish them off.

[Aimi]

Militarized wrote...

Thought I'd point this out, it's in the Codex.

"Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated."

So... even Bioware seems to have changed their tune a bit.

I also suggest everyone read "The Miracle Of Palaven" in their Codex, it reads as if they killed a lot of Reapers. 

That is the difference between the ability of an ant to defeat a human and the ability of the Iraqi military to defeat the Coalition forces in 1991 and 2003. There is no way for an ant to kill a human. But in theory, the Iraqis could have won either war. In reality, the amount of losses they would take to achieve even a tactical success would be so high that such a course of action would be unsustainable.

Yes, if the entire Reaper fleet were lured out into actions involving only one or two vessels against overwhelming allied naval superiority, then yes, eventually the Reapers could theoretically be defeated. The only problems are that a) they would never actually do that and the cost to the galactic population and economy would be so high that allied forces would be required to abandon this course of action before it even came close to bearing fruit.

Remember, the Codex is written from an in-game perspective by the Council government. Of course they'll be stating that, theoretically, we can win this war by conventional means. The Codex also stated that Sovereign was a geth ship in ME2, and in ME3 did not have perfect knowledge about Udina's coup attempt. It is usually a reliable source, but in certain circumstances, it is not. This is one of those circumstances.

[IntoTheDarkness]

I prefer star child to this conventional victory. don't want reapers to be that weak.

[Sepharih]

Positronics wrote...

You're using Macguffin and Cherkov's Gun like they are negative connotations attached to it.

Hint: Just because a literary device has a name to identify it (like hitchcock's Macguffin or Cherkov's Gun) does -not- mean that it is somehow bad.

BTW, the Crucible and the Catalyst is not a Macguffin.

It's in writing terms a "decisive plot device". Both the Crucible -and- the Catalyst is explained in the first hours of the story, and while we don't know how it all works (you don't know how the Reapers work, either) we do know it's function from the outset.

The Miracle at Palaven was a grinding stalemate that cost large swaths of Turian population on suicide runs that the Reapers would have eventually overcome. EVERY ****ing major population and production center in the galaxy was done for.

No one can clearly explain to me exactly how the three gargantuan Reaper concentrations on Earth, Palaven, and Thessia could have been overcome by that Combined Fleet that couldn't even handle one group, let alone defeat all the Reapers in the galaxy.

You are told constantly they can't be defeated by conventional means, so get it through your skulls: THE REAPERS CAN'T LOSE IN A SLUGFEST.

The end.

Yeah, no.  I'll take a magical hand wave or lore retcon from the writer over actual  any day of the week.  Especially if it fits with the established themes of the series and doesn't radically contradict them.  I'm more than open to a third option, but winning against impossible odds in a *somewhat* conventional battle is more in the style of the series.

Also, I'll let the crucible go as I don't really mind the macguffin and/or "decisive plot device" either in this story or in most. However, we have absolutely no idea what the hell the catalyst is or what it's function is until the last hour or so of the game....and that even turns out to be wrong as we find out in the last five minutes.

[Wildhide]

Corvus74 wrote...

Yes, they could be defeated conventionally.

The Reapers may have been more advanced, but they had been technically and tactically stagnant for millions of years. In ME2 you board a 37 million year old reaper that is exactly the same as current reapers and take its IFF to use. Think of that - in 37 million years they haven't changed their IFF.

Their tactics have also been always the same - to avoid a direct confrontation at all costs. Instead they hit the Citadel, decapitate the leadership, shut down the mass relays and pick off the small isolated pockets one at a time, and even that takes centuries.

This time is different. They can't do that so the try plans B, C & D. First they try the Rachni. That fails.

Then they try Saren. That spectacularly fails. Even with a fleet of Geth that outnumbers the surprised defenders of the Citadel, Sovereign looses. In the process he alerts the current cycle to the existance of the Reapers and allows them to reverse engineer Reaper tech in the form of Thanix weaponry, which can be mounted on everything including fighters. Without his shields, Sovereign isn't that hard to destroy, and Thanix weaponry is specificaly stated as to ignore shields.

Then they try the Collectors and that too fails.

So out comes Plan E - a direct attack, which would imply that they really didn't want to do it. They strike at homeworlds first, trying to isolate and divide the races, but that fails and they get the one thing they didn't want - a truly unified Galaxy facing them down.

From the codex we know a few things. That the Turians by themselves, and not even their whole fleet, took down a number of capital ships. That the vast majority of Reaper forces are in fact destroyers, and said destroyers can be destroyed by a single cruiser, or even fighters.

Then we come to the final battle at Earth. The Reapers are stated to have pulled back most of their forces in an effort to defend the Citadel. Even so they are shown to be badly outnumbered by the combined might of the allied fleet - and that was only Sword fleet. Shield fleet hangs back defending the cruicible.

The allied fleet numbers in the tens of thousands. (We know the Quarians had 50,000 ships in their fleet, and the Geth seemed to have a similar number. Even with losses, if you get both on side, that adds, what, 60-80,000 ships to your force alone?)

The Reapers force looks small in comparison (and again is mostly destroyers). In the hundreds, maybe thousands.

What fact overlooked is the Geth. As true AI, they can't be indoctrinated, can't be taken over anymore, they don't rest or slack off and work at peak efficiency. They could churn out ships at a prodigious rate, and going by the Geth dreadnaught we saw, they can make very powerful ships. I'd not be surprised if those Geth Dreadnaughts could go one on one with a Reaper capital ship.

If would have been the height of irony if they very thing that the Reapers were trying to stop (synthetic AI) were the very thing that ended the Reaper threat and saved the galaxy for all sentients.

This man sums up exactly why I expected conventional warfare to succeed.

[Geneaux486]

Falcon509 wrote...

Stop using Sovereign as an example for why the Reapers are undefeatable in open warfare. Sovereign staged a surprise attack on the Citadel and was accompanied by whole armadas of Geth destroyers and dreadnoughts... That's a bad example to call on. If anything, that example only serves to prove the OP's point.

And he also plowed through ships like it was nothing.  And was still destroying ships when he had his pants down taking control of the Citadel.  And the element of surprise only lasted for a few minutes.  And the exact same thing on a larger scale happened to Earth's and Palaven's defenses.  No, the Reapers cannot be defeated by conventional means unless the writers nerf the Reapers, which would have been the real dissapointment.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 27 mars 2012 - 01:22 .

[Exicuren]

Wildhide wrote...

Corvus74 wrote...

Yes, they could be defeated conventionally.

The Reapers may have been more advanced, but they had been technically and tactically stagnant for millions of years. In ME2 you board a 37 million year old reaper that is exactly the same as current reapers and take its IFF to use. Think of that - in 37 million years they haven't changed their IFF.

Their tactics have also been always the same - to avoid a direct confrontation at all costs. Instead they hit the Citadel, decapitate the leadership, shut down the mass relays and pick off the small isolated pockets one at a time, and even that takes centuries.

This time is different. They can't do that so the try plans B, C & D. First they try the Rachni. That fails.

Then they try Saren. That spectacularly fails. Even with a fleet of Geth that outnumbers the surprised defenders of the Citadel, Sovereign looses. In the process he alerts the current cycle to the existance of the Reapers and allows them to reverse engineer Reaper tech in the form of Thanix weaponry, which can be mounted on everything including fighters. Without his shields, Sovereign isn't that hard to destroy, and Thanix weaponry is specificaly stated as to ignore shields.

Then they try the Collectors and that too fails.

So out comes Plan E - a direct attack, which would imply that they really didn't want to do it. They strike at homeworlds first, trying to isolate and divide the races, but that fails and they get the one thing they didn't want - a truly unified Galaxy facing them down.

From the codex we know a few things. That the Turians by themselves, and not even their whole fleet, took down a number of capital ships. That the vast majority of Reaper forces are in fact destroyers, and said destroyers can be destroyed by a single cruiser, or even fighters.

Then we come to the final battle at Earth. The Reapers are stated to have pulled back most of their forces in an effort to defend the Citadel. Even so they are shown to be badly outnumbered by the combined might of the allied fleet - and that was only Sword fleet. Shield fleet hangs back defending the cruicible.

The allied fleet numbers in the tens of thousands. (We know the Quarians had 50,000 ships in their fleet, and the Geth seemed to have a similar number. Even with losses, if you get both on side, that adds, what, 60-80,000 ships to your force alone?)

The Reapers force looks small in comparison (and again is mostly destroyers). In the hundreds, maybe thousands.

What fact overlooked is the Geth. As true AI, they can't be indoctrinated, can't be taken over anymore, they don't rest or slack off and work at peak efficiency. They could churn out ships at a prodigious rate, and going by the Geth dreadnaught we saw, they can make very powerful ships. I'd not be surprised if those Geth Dreadnaughts could go one on one with a Reaper capital ship.

If would have been the height of irony if they very thing that the Reapers were trying to stop (synthetic AI) were the very thing that ended the Reaper threat and saved the galaxy for all sentients.

This man sums up exactly why I expected conventional warfare to succeed.

agreed, screw the crucible

[Orumon]

Personally, I found there was no reason why they couldn't be defeated conventionally (using tactics instead of blindly charging), especially in the battle for earth. When their shields crumpled, reapers tended to fall at the hands of smaller vessels and the destroyer class Reapers were jokes overall.

Combine that with a near parity of weapons (Thanix cannons and the Volus Kwunu dreadnought (Spinal Thanix from a dreadnought? YES!) and a unified galaxy and the Reapers certainly weren't as invincible as before. It also fits with the theme of overcoming through cooperation that ran from the first Mass Effect game.

Modifié par Orumon, 27 mars 2012 - 01:42 .

[Geneaux486]

Orumon wrote...

Personally, I found there was no reason why they couldn't be defeated conventionally (using tactics instead of blindly charging), especially in the battle for earth. When their shields crumpled, reapers tended to fall at the hands of smaller vessels and the destroyer class Reapers were jokes overall.

Combine that with a near parity of weapons (Thanix cannons and the Volus Kwunu dreadnought (Spinal Thanix from a dreadnought? YES!) and a unified galaxy and the Reapers certainly weren't as invincible as before. It also fits with the theme of overcoming through cooperation that ran from the first Mass Effect game.

But that's just it, the Reapers are bringing a fight so strong that it requres an entire unified galaxy *at every major world*.  Even if the battle for Earth had been won, your military strength would have deteriorated so much to accomplish it that the same result at Palaven or Thessia would have been impossible.  You can achieve *small* victories against the Reapers by conventional means, but that won't win the war.

[Corvus74]

Geneaux486 wrote...

But that's just it, the Reapers are bringing a fight so strong that it requres an entire unified galaxy *at every major world*.  Even if the battle for Earth had been won, your military strength would have deteriorated so much to accomplish it that the same result at Palaven or Thessia would have been impossible.  You can achieve *small* victories against the Reapers by conventional means, but that won't win the war.

Except we were told that the Reapers have pulled most of their forces back to Earth to defend the Citadel.  Defeat that force and the Reapers aren't left with much.

[RogueKrogan]

Remember that after ME1, all ships began being outfitted with reverse-engineered Reaper technology (thanix cannon, multicore shielding, whatever the armor is). Entire fleets being outfitted with Reaper technology? Reapers don't stand a chance.

[Geneaux486]

Corvus74 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

But that's just it, the Reapers are bringing a fight so strong that it requres an entire unified galaxy *at every major world*.  Even if the battle for Earth had been won, your military strength would have deteriorated so much to accomplish it that the same result at Palaven or Thessia would have been impossible.  You can achieve *small* victories against the Reapers by conventional means, but that won't win the war.

Except we were told that the Reapers have pulled most of their forces back to Earth to defend the Citadel.  Defeat that force and the Reapers aren't left with much.

But they're not defeating that force.  That's why Admiral Hackett keeps asking Shepard to activate the Crucible on his end after it's docked in place.

[Orumon]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Orumon wrote...

Personally, I found there was no reason why they couldn't be defeated conventionally (using tactics instead of blindly charging), especially in the battle for earth. When their shields crumpled, reapers tended to fall at the hands of smaller vessels and the destroyer class Reapers were jokes overall.

Combine that with a near parity of weapons (Thanix cannons and the Volus Kwunu dreadnought (Spinal Thanix from a dreadnought? YES!) and a unified galaxy and the Reapers certainly weren't as invincible as before. It also fits with the theme of overcoming through cooperation that ran from the first Mass Effect game.

But that's just it, the Reapers are bringing a fight so strong that it requres an entire unified galaxy *at every major world*.  Even if the battle for Earth had been won, your military strength would have deteriorated so much to accomplish it that the same result at Palaven or Thessia would have been impossible.  You can achieve *small* victories against the Reapers by conventional means, but that won't win the war.

An actually valid point. That's rare. The thing is, earth is winnable, but annihilating the majority of the reaper fleet (and earth retained the largest concentration thoughout the war) if it cost you your own would be fairly pyrrhic, because the reapers don't have attrition or command issues.

However, although I do agree with you that conventionally retaking earth would have made it impossible to retake Palaven and Thessia by the same means, I also think that the reapers are spread much too thinly everywhere else.

When I think conventional warfare, since earth isn't going to fall anytime soon (Thanks, plot significant Anderson), picking off these lonesome reapers with the allied fleet first would have been better, since the most a reaper can do is pick off one or two ships a try (IF they hit) before being smashed by the overwhelming number of dreadnought guns. This would have allowed some of the pressure on the galaxy as a whole to be relieved, allowing more room for ship building and eventually, reinforcement.

A lot of people are saying attrition doesn't affect the reapers, this is both true and untrue. Yes, the reapers don't have to worry about supply lines, ammo concerns and food. That said, EVERY CASUALTY FOR A TRUE REAPER CAUSES LONG TERM DAMAGE!!! Every single reaper lost is a difficult to replace war asset for them. The casualty form of attrition is especially vicious to them since their breeding methods are so exacting. This is made worse by the fact that Reapers rarely come to each others aid.

So I still feel that a conventional war would be winnable, but it would require a far more cautious strategy than a major set piece battle.

[Slash1667]

Can the Galactic Forces beat the Reapers with conventional weapons using conventional warfare? Maybe yes, Maybe no honestly it would be insanity to try.

Can the Galactic Forces beat the Reapers with conventional weapons using "unconventional" warfare. Absolutely they can.

History is rife with examples of superior forces, due to numbers, technology or quality, being stopped or defeated by significantly inferior forces because they refused to play the other guys game.

On paper there is no way the Viet Cong should have been able to U.S., British and French forces for 20 years, but they did. Using a combination of guerrilla tactics, misdirection, deception and flat out disregard of the "rules or war" the North Vietnamese fought these forces for 20 years.

A small militia of colonists couldn't beat the military might of the British Empire in the late 1700s, however it did happen. Going against the tactics of the day the American colonists refused to line up in ranks and march straight at the British troops. They employed hit and run tactics, snipers and superior knowledge of the terrain.

These are only 2 examples of it happening. The U.N. forces in the first example and the British forces in the second didn't have to worry about one thing the Reapers do either. The above forces could replenish their naval forces in a matter of months. When the Reapers lose a ship, especially a capital ship, how long does it take to harvest enough people to replace it? Where would they hide the ship yard to build?

Using conventional weapons the Galactic Forces can defeat the Reapers. They can't win using conventional warfare.

[Positronics]

Stop equating the Reapers vs the Galaxy as the US vs the Vietcong/Iraqis/whatever. The difference between US and NVA tech was much much slimmer than Reaper/Galaxy tech, and btw, the motives for any war that Americans or Vietnamese or Iraqis wage would be far different than that of the Reapers. Vietnam was won by the North because invading Hanoi was politically impossible, the Reapers have no such restrictions.

The British could have absolutely destroyed us poor Americans during the Revolution, but they had way bigger fish to fry in the form of France, a rival superpower who was kicking their ass (with the help of Spain and the former Hapsburgs) in Europe and knocking on their doorstep.

Please stop the historic references, they are poorly made and sillly.

A guerilla war against Reapers would be just as silly. We would lose. Someone please explain to me how we could defeat them in a conventional sense, and I will explain how that person is wrong.

[RiouHotaru]

daqs wrote...

Militarized wrote...

Thought I'd point this out, it's in the Codex.

"Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated."

So... even Bioware seems to have changed their tune a bit.

I also suggest everyone read "The Miracle Of Palaven" in their Codex, it reads as if they killed a lot of Reapers. 

That is the difference between the ability of an ant to defeat a human and the ability of the Iraqi military to defeat the Coalition forces in 1991 and 2003. There is no way for an ant to kill a human. But in theory, the Iraqis could have won either war. In reality, the amount of losses they would take to achieve even a tactical success would be so high that such a course of action would be unsustainable.

Yes, if the entire Reaper fleet were lured out into actions involving only one or two vessels against overwhelming allied naval superiority, then yes, eventually the Reapers could theoretically be defeated. The only problems are that a) they would never actually do that and the cost to the galactic population and economy would be so high that allied forces would be required to abandon this course of action before it even came close to bearing fruit.

Remember, the Codex is written from an in-game perspective by the Council government. Of course they'll be stating that, theoretically, we can win this war by conventional means. The Codex also stated that Sovereign was a geth ship in ME2, and in ME3 did not have perfect knowledge about Udina's coup attempt. It is usually a reliable source, but in certain circumstances, it is not. This is one of those circumstances.

Amen.

[Ishiken]

I never understand why we couldn't defeat just some Reapers with the Crucible but not destroy every single one of them. If the united galaxy fleets take out several Sovereign class Reapers, wouldn't it fit the story that the Reaper would retreat into dark space. The galaxy would be saved however the Reaper threat would still exist so that the Mass Effect universe can still progress, and the next game could be the galaxy taking the offensive against the reapers by going into Dark Space or trying to discover more about the Reapers so that they can completely defeat them in the next invasion. The Crucible wouldn't become just a Deux machine anymore.

Modifié par Ishiken, 27 mars 2012 - 04:27 .

[Slash1667]

Positronics wrote...

Stop equating the Reapers vs the Galaxy as the US vs the Vietcong/Iraqis/whatever. The difference between US and NVA tech was much much slimmer than Reaper/Galaxy tech, and btw, the motives for any war that Americans or Vietnamese or Iraqis wage would be far different than that of the Reapers. Vietnam was won by the North because invading Hanoi was politically impossible, the Reapers have no such restrictions.

The British could have absolutely destroyed us poor Americans during the Revolution, but they had way bigger fish to fry in the form of France, a rival superpower who was kicking their ass (with the help of Spain and the former Hapsburgs) in Europe and knocking on their doorstep.

Please stop the historic references, they are poorly made and sillly.

A guerilla war against Reapers would be just as silly. We would lose. Someone please explain to me how we could defeat them in a conventional sense, and I will explain how that person is wrong.

I just told you. The Galactic Forces probably wouldn't win using conventional warfare. You can't ignore historical references. They prove that winning with conventional weapons can be possible. Conventional warfight styles can not defeat the Reapers.

[Positronics]

Ishiken wrote...

I never understand why we couldn't defeat just some Reapers with the Crucible but not destroy every single one of them. If the united galaxy fleets take out several Sovereign class Reapers, wouldn't it fit the story that the Reaper would retreat into dark space. The galaxy would be saved however the Reaper threat would still exist so that the Mass Effect universe can still progress, and the next game could be the galaxy taking the offensive against the reapers by going into Dark Space or trying to discover more about the Reapers so that they can completely defeat them in the next invasion. The Crucible wouldn't become just a Deux machine anymore.

You're falling into a horrible plot hole, a sin committed by most Hollywood alien invasion movies with that logic.

Human perspective upon victory:"An alien race comes to Earth, destroys most of its military, all of its organization, economy, and severly disrupts vital infastructure, but is eventually over come by <insert action star here>. Humans beat the aliens, and everyone is happy."

Except by the point, during that happy ending, your planet is teetering on the abyss, weak, vulnureable, and completely uncoordinated. Why an alien race that is not -completely- migratory with all eggs in one basket doesn't simply send another wave, even some sort of auxillary and finish the job, is beyond me.

Defeated alien perspective "Oh, they stopped our main invasion force with a computer virus? WTF? We'll just install Martian Kaspersky and go pwn them. Oh, Earth has these things called viruses that can kill us? OMG, water hurts US? (even though 70% of the Earth is water and you'd think they'd have figured that out, Signs). Yeah, we'll just all wear environmental suits next time instead of running around naked. Earth destroyed."

The Reapers wouldn't be vulnurable at the end state of a victorious Battle for Earth. The allied races would be -immensely- vulnerable. What would stop them from simply mopping up the remainder with the Thessia or Palaven forces?

[Positronics]

Slash1667 wrote...

Positronics wrote...

Stop equating the Reapers vs the Galaxy as the US vs the Vietcong/Iraqis/whatever. The difference between US and NVA tech was much much slimmer than Reaper/Galaxy tech, and btw, the motives for any war that Americans or Vietnamese or Iraqis wage would be far different than that of the Reapers. Vietnam was won by the North because invading Hanoi was politically impossible, the Reapers have no such restrictions.

The British could have absolutely destroyed us poor Americans during the Revolution, but they had way bigger fish to fry in the form of France, a rival superpower who was kicking their ass (with the help of Spain and the former Hapsburgs) in Europe and knocking on their doorstep.

Please stop the historic references, they are poorly made and sillly.

A guerilla war against Reapers would be just as silly. We would lose. Someone please explain to me how we could defeat them in a conventional sense, and I will explain how that person is wrong.

I just told you. The Galactic Forces probably wouldn't win using conventional warfare. You can't ignore historical references. They prove that winning with conventional weapons can be possible. Conventional warfight styles can not defeat the Reapers.

Tell me specifically then how they can be defeated, because just saying so doesn't make it true. There are 85 dreadnoughts in 2186, and most of those are destroyed by the time of the Battle of Earth. It takes 4 dreadnoughts to beat a Reaper. Being generous, that means 21 Sovereign-class Reapers have been destroyed by the time our dreadnought count reaches 0. There are at least 250 "big" Reapers out there. Battle of annihilation doesn't work, as shown by the "Miracle" and the ending. Attrition wouldn't work. The Reapers have no supply lines, can make new capital ships faster than we can, especially since their harvesting rates would be through the roof at that point. Your strategic depth works completely against you, because your numbers become their numbers. They already have half the galaxy wiped out, all of the Council races production centers are gone, and oh yeah, the galactic economy crashes in a year.

Explain how you win

Modifié par Positronics, 27 mars 2012 - 04:44 .

[Leonia]

FWIW, there are conventional strategies used against the Reapers if you look deeply into the Codex as well.

[Sangheili_1337]

Slash1667 wrote...

Positronics wrote...

Stop equating the Reapers vs the Galaxy as the US vs the Vietcong/Iraqis/whatever. The difference between US and NVA tech was much much slimmer than Reaper/Galaxy tech, and btw, the motives for any war that Americans or Vietnamese or Iraqis wage would be far different than that of the Reapers. Vietnam was won by the North because invading Hanoi was politically impossible, the Reapers have no such restrictions.

The British could have absolutely destroyed us poor Americans during the Revolution, but they had way bigger fish to fry in the form of France, a rival superpower who was kicking their ass (with the help of Spain and the former Hapsburgs) in Europe and knocking on their doorstep.

Please stop the historic references, they are poorly made and sillly.

A guerilla war against Reapers would be just as silly. We would lose. Someone please explain to me how we could defeat them in a conventional sense, and I will explain how that person is wrong.

I just told you. The Galactic Forces probably wouldn't win using conventional warfare. You can't ignore historical references. They prove that winning with conventional weapons can be possible. Conventional warfight styles can not defeat the Reapers.

If the United States wanted to, Vietnam would be a wasteland right now. They were holding back and trying to win hearts and minds. Reapers on the other hand are genocidal and willing to pull all the stops. If the United States wanted to butcher every man, woman, and child and let the nukes fly, there isnt a thing Vietnam could have done. The Reapers outclass the galaxy's alliance in every way possible, no amount of tactical innovation is going to change that.

Modifié par Sangheili_1337, 27 mars 2012 - 05:00 .