318 réponses à ce sujet

[Subject M]

No, no chance in defeating the conventionally. Its not their narrative function or logical given what we have been shown. They would be able to give them a fight, but they would fail if the reapers did not act like they where stupid. Arrogance is one thing, but I doubt they would repeat the mistake if soloing up close against a couple of Turian dreadnaughts is dangerous. The only way they could have been beaten conventionally would have been if the crucible+Citadel was one giant space gun they could use to target reaper signatures and fire devastating beams of directed energy or something.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Sepharih wrote...

However, what are we SHOWN?  We are shown:
-The Alliance fleet defeating both the Geth and Sovereign in ME1 (with your help).

Which almost completely destroted the Turian fleet, which was at the time, the largest fleet in the galaxy. Even then the losses were massive and that was just one Reaper. We see a minimum of four "Sovereign class Reapers" destryoing Vancouver alone, with at least two destryoing London simultaneously.

-A derilict reaper in ME2 that seems to have been defeated conventionally and gets blown up.

That Reaper was hit by an ancient super weapon which was never actually found, but was so powerful that it left a giant scar in a planet that was many light years away from the target. That doesn't correspond to any definition of "conventionally." Also, that civilization was defeated, so they clearly couldn't beat the Reapers even if they killed one.

-Shepard and two squadmates defeating a WIP Reaper in ME2 with small arms fire.

That thing is the weakest one they have, and it's the strongest single opponent you face on the ground with small arms fire in any of the games.

-A Thresher maw, a (admittedly larger) kind of creature you routinely defeated in the Mako, going toe to toe and winning against Reaper.

"So now we just need a gun that shoots thresher maws." Plus, thresher maws can't fight in space battles.

-Shepard defeating a Reaper himself with the help of the migrant fleet.

The entire Migrant Fleet, focusing all of their fire on the weak spot of one Reaper. A "destroyer" Reaper, which is about 1/4 the size and strength of a "real" Reaper like Sovereign.

-Shepard using missles against one and destroying it in the final mission before Harbinger appears.

Again, a destroyer Reaper. And he barely gets the shot off. All of the other tanks that were supposed to shoot that thing? They're all dead because they couldn't conventionally survive.

What we are shown and experience as the player is that while the Reapers are a threat unlike any that the races of the galaxy have faced....they are not invincible.  Shepard is routinely shown defying all the odds and beating them in straight up fights.

Beating one Reaper, not always the strongest kind, in straight up fights. When there are thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of Reapers that need to be killed to save the galaxy.
 

If you want to blame someone for promoting the idea that the united galaxies fleet could defeat the reapers in a straight up fight, blame Bioware.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. I know many people aren't happy that you have to defeat the Reapers by plot device, but Bioware clearly built them up to be that powerful and that was going to be the only way to beat them.

[The Angry One]

sergio71785 wrote...

I don't even believe that Sovereign would have gone down in the battle of the Citadel if it weren't for Saren's death giving it that damaging feedback pause (I used to argue this back in the day, before it was confirmed by codex). Not unless dreadnaughts showed up. Cruisers and frigates are just too weak. It's like shooting at a tank with handguns--doesn't matter how many shots you do, it won't make a difference. You just need something more powerful.

That's a given, however that fleet was again without Thanix cannons.
Now supposedly every ship in the human and Turian fleets have them, and sustained fire from them is supposed to bring down any barrier.
Then again they don't even use them.

[FemmeShep]

Subject M wrote...

No, no chance in defeating the conventionally. Its not their narrative function or logical given what we have been shown. They would be able to give them a fight, but they would fail if the reapers did not act like they where stupid. Arrogance is one thing, but I doubt they would repeat the mistake if soloing up close against a couple of Turian dreadnaughts is dangerous. The only way they could have been beaten conventionally would have been if the crucible+Citadel was one giant space gun they could use to target reaper signatures and fire devastating beams of directed energy or something.

I actually disagree. As I said, in the past their cycle worked, because most of the life in these cycles were too worried about their own homeplanets. With everyone scattered, the war effort was never centralized. This allowed the Reapers to go to planet to planet, and pick off each race without breaking a sweat.

In this cycle, Shepard unites the entire galaxy, and centralizes the biggest army in the history of all life (even outnumbering the Reapers). I don't think BioWare did a good enough job maiking the Reapers overpowered, and their (Organics) loss inevitable.

If anything, the final battle made you think: you're telling me they all can't destroy the reapers?

Modifié par FemmeShep, 26 mars 2012 - 04:48 .

[TeaKae421]

Actually what hurt the Reapers as well in the battle scene at Earth is that when they opened fire they actually didn't destroy any ships. If you'd seen a Reaper strafe a beam across the fleets ranks and take out 3 or 4 ships in one go, you'd know the Reapers were massively superior.

You see one ship get taken out by a Reaper, but only after the Reaper itself has been massively damaged.

[Tapkomet]

The Reapers could be defeated conventionally... But unfortunately, all fleet suddenly forgot about their super-powerful Thanix cannons. Maybe the ship captains were indocrinated?

[Welsh Inferno]

FemmeShep wrote...

I actually disagree. As I said, in the past thier cycle worked, because most of the life in the cycles were too worried about their own homeplanets. With everyone scattered, the war effort was never centralized. This allowed the Reapers to go to planet to planet, and pick off each race without breaking a sweat.

In this cycle, Shepard unites the entire galaxy, and centralizes the biggest army in the history of life. 

We have no knowledge of cycles pre-protheans. 

[Dranume]

Hey, If BW wants to throw in a good old fashion slugging match with the Reapers.. I am so down for that!

[TODD9999]

After rewatching the fleet battle, it looks like very early on, a Sovereign-class is getting cut apart. Whether that means it can be destroyed that easily, I couldn't say, but it seems to indicate that its barriers are down or at least bypassed.

And yeah, the lack of Thanix fire from any ship other than the Normandy was pretty irritating.

[sergio71785]

The Angry One wrote...

The fleet against Sovereign had no Thanix cannons.
And yet once it's barriers were down, the Normandy hulled it with a single torpedo.

Now you tell me if that isn't inconsistent. You cannot run around saying that Sovereign class Reapers are invincible when without their shields they're made of cardboard.

That actually doesn't surprise me. It doesn't matter how advanced the Reapers are, they're still subject to the laws of physics. They're made out of atoms, and there is a limit to how hard atoms can bind. Without shielding, or some kind of energy-based protection, there's only so much mere matter can do against the massive energy unleashed by weapons in the ME universe.

So yeah, the greatest strength of a Reaper is its shielding. Or I should say, its mass effect core, which allows the shielding to exist.

[II JazB x]

What I never understood also is why the fleet didnt just javelin missile spam the Reapers. Obviously the Reapers would take out a lot of them but hundreds of thousands of dark energy torpedoes can't all be stopped, not even by a Reaper

[FemmeShep]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

I actually disagree. As I said, in the past thier cycle worked, because most of the life in the cycles were too worried about their own homeplanets. With everyone scattered, the war effort was never centralized. This allowed the Reapers to go to planet to planet, and pick off each race without breaking a sweat.

In this cycle, Shepard unites the entire galaxy, and centralizes the biggest army in the history of life. 

We have no knowledge of cycles pre-protheans. 

So do you think each cycle had a Shepard or someone that united everyone to fight?

[The_mango55]

The only reapers we have seen destroyed are Sovereign, who had his shields down, and 3 reaper DESTROYERS. The destroyers are FAR weaker than the Sovereign class Dreadnaughts.

Sovereign was only destroyed because his shields were down after you killed Saren.

The derelict reaper was killed by a mass accelerator cannon that left a continent shattering gorge across a planet. We don't have anything near that powerful.

[Welsh Inferno]

TODD9999 wrote...

After rewatching the fleet battle, it looks like very early on, a Sovereign-class is getting cut apart. Whether that means it can be destroyed that easily, I couldn't say, but it seems to indicate that its barriers are down or at least bypassed.

And yeah, the lack of Thanix fire from any ship other than the Normandy was pretty irritating.

It was done for story reasons. To give you a "TAKE THAT F******S" kinda moment and emphasize the point in your mind that maybe we can win this war.

[Alraiis]

From what I was shown, the combined firepower of the Migrant Fleet—one of the largest fleets in the galaxy—can defeat ONE Reaper if: a) their targeting is coordinated, they focus on a weak spot that only opens periodically, c) they hit that weak spot several times, and d) the Reaper in question is focused on ground forces.

There are thousands of Reapers.

I don't like those odds.

[sergio71785]

The Angry One wrote...

sergio71785 wrote...

I don't even believe that Sovereign would have gone down in the battle of the Citadel if it weren't for Saren's death giving it that damaging feedback pause (I used to argue this back in the day, before it was confirmed by codex). Not unless dreadnaughts showed up. Cruisers and frigates are just too weak. It's like shooting at a tank with handguns--doesn't matter how many shots you do, it won't make a difference. You just need something more powerful.

That's a given, however that fleet was again without Thanix cannons.
Now supposedly every ship in the human and Turian fleets have them, and sustained fire from them is supposed to bring down any barrier.
Then again they don't even use them.

I think the problem with thannix cannons is that they may not have a very good range. It's basically superheated metal shot out at a high velocity. It stands to reason that it would spread and scatter some over a distance, like a shot gun. Thus, they'd have to get close to the Reaper to be effective. And of course, the Reapers have their own thannix cannon (and GARDIAN type laser and all that jazz).

Modifié par sergio71785, 26 mars 2012 - 04:53 .

[Welsh Inferno]

FemmeShep wrote...

So do you think each cycle had a Shepard or someone that united everyone to fight?

I have no idea. No way of knowing. Looking at the diversity in just our cycle to how different the Protheans were leads me to believe there were many different kinds of Empires.

Only thing we have to show resistence to Reapers is the weapon from Klendagon. 

[Zardoc]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...



Which almost completely destroted the Turian fleet, which was at the time, the largest fleet in the galaxy. Even then the losses were massive and that was just one Reaper. We see a minimum of four "Sovereign class Reapers" destryoing Vancouver alone, with at least two destryoing London simultaneously.

The turians lost 20 cruisers, and most of them to the geth. Their fleet was hardly destroyed.

[Sgt Stryker]

The Angry One wrote...

The fleet against Sovereign had no Thanix cannons.
And yet once it's barriers were down, the Normandy hulled it with a single torpedo.

Now you tell me if that isn't inconsistent. You cannot run around saying that Sovereign class Reapers are invincible when without their shields they're made of cardboard.

Couple of things about that cutscene:

First, the Normandy wasn't the only ship firing on Sovereign. The rest of the fleet was also pouring fire into it.
Second, maybe that torpedo impact was a critical hit? There's plenty of real-life precedents. I'm especially thinking of the USS Arizona's destruction in the Pearl Harbor attack, where one lucky strike by an aerial bomb landed right in the ship's magazines, setting off a massive explosion inside.

[Silhouett3]

They all have much bigger mass effect cores. Which gives them much greater mobility, gun damage and range. They have all the advantage in space combat. Thanix cannons or not, how do you get close enough to destroy Reapers and avoid getting destroyed yourself?

Modifié par Silhouett3, 26 mars 2012 - 04:57 .

[ZLurps]

Fleets are using Thanix weapons. This is very evident in cut scene where we see combined galactic fleet firing projectiles instead of using beam weapons.

From codex:
"Contrary to popular belief, Sovereign's main gun was not a directed energy weapon. ... armor-piercing projectiles when fired."

I could go on but, in the end it doesn't even matter.
Whatever666343431431654324 posted this in ME2 forums:

"We know the Reapers have been around 37 million years at least. Lets say it takes 10 million people to create a Reaper. Humanity has 11 billion people, which probably isn't that numerous as galactic civilizations go.
Lets say the Reapers get 10% of them for procreation (a low number). Lets say that only 10% of the cycles have a suitable race (again, probably a low number). Lets further assume that the Reapers are only 37 millions years old. Thats over 8000 Reapers right there. And it could be 10x that many.

Ouch."

Modifié par ZLurps, 26 mars 2012 - 04:57 .

[CronoDragoon]

At like 79% percent Galactic Readiness, the message is something like "Alliance forces are holding steady and gaining ground in some places." That's without the crucible. Yeah, it's just a multiplayer message, but since all of this is speculation anyway...

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 26 mars 2012 - 04:56 .

[Sepharih]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

However, what are we SHOWN?  We are shown:
-The Alliance fleet defeating both the Geth and Sovereign in ME1 (with your help).

Which almost completely destroted the Turian fleet, which was at the time, the largest fleet in the galaxy. Even then the losses were massive and that was just one Reaper. We see a minimum of four "Sovereign class Reapers" destryoing Vancouver alone, with at least two destryoing London simultaneously.

-A derilict reaper in ME2 that seems to have been defeated conventionally and gets blown up.

That Reaper was hit by an ancient super weapon which was never actually found, but was so powerful that it left a giant scar in a planet that was many light years away from the target. That doesn't correspond to any definition of "conventionally." Also, that civilization was defeated, so they clearly couldn't beat the Reapers even if they killed one.

-Shepard and two squadmates defeating a WIP Reaper in ME2 with small arms fire.

That thing is the weakest one they have, and it's the strongest single opponent you face on the ground with small arms fire in any of the games.

-A Thresher maw, a (admittedly larger) kind of creature you routinely defeated in the Mako, going toe to toe and winning against Reaper.

"So now we just need a gun that shoots thresher maws." Plus, thresher maws can't fight in space battles.

-Shepard defeating a Reaper himself with the help of the migrant fleet.

The entire Migrant Fleet, focusing all of their fire on the weak spot of one Reaper. A "destroyer" Reaper, which is about 1/4 the size and strength of a "real" Reaper like Sovereign.

-Shepard using missles against one and destroying it in the final mission before Harbinger appears.

Again, a destroyer Reaper. And he barely gets the shot off. All of the other tanks that were supposed to shoot that thing? They're all dead because they couldn't conventionally survive.

What we are shown and experience as the player is that while the Reapers are a threat unlike any that the races of the galaxy have faced....they are not invincible.  Shepard is routinely shown defying all the odds and beating them in straight up fights.

Beating one Reaper, not always the strongest kind, in straight up fights. When there are thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of Reapers that need to be killed to save the galaxy.
 

If you want to blame someone for promoting the idea that the united galaxies fleet could defeat the reapers in a straight up fight, blame Bioware.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. I know many people aren't happy that you have to defeat the Reapers by plot device, but Bioware clearly built them up to be that powerful and that was going to be the only way to beat them.

You are missing my point.

I know you and Bioware can explain away all of the examples i've shown with notes like "this was a smaller reaper" or "this one took the combined might of the whole fleet".  There's a difference between storytelling themes and established lore.

If you want to tell a story that shows the player that the reapers cannot be defeated conventionally then you should not have them defeat the reapers conventionally at almost every story beat. 

[alberta]

I agree with the idea that conventional means can defeat the Reapers - however Earth is the wrong battlefield for this strategy to work. The only sensible strategy to defeat the Reapers on Earth is to blow the Earth Relay in a similar super nova as ME2 did killing everything including Reapers taking out their main fleet and the Citadel at the same time. That would deprive the rest of the Reapers from Citadel control plus that would give us the time to take on the Reapers in smaller numbers system by system over time while leaving the rest of the relays intact.

[TeaKae421]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...


The entire Migrant Fleet, focusing all of their fire on the weak spot of one Reaper. A "destroyer" Reaper, which is about 1/4 the size and strength of a "real" Reaper like Sovereign.

Yeah, but we know why it took so many shots to take the destroyer down when you remember it's a boss fight, it wouldn't have been very effective if it'd be destroyed in a single shot. I know if it had suited the storyline, that destroyer would have went into orbit and pummeled the hell out of a ton of ships, just to show how awesomely powerful the Reapers are, the weakspot would have been forgotten.

Just as when you're in game, it can take an entire clip to down an enemy, but in a cut-scene a handful is enough to take it out. The strength of opponents differs wildly to suit whatever direction they're taking the story.