318 réponses à ce sujet

[Welsh Inferno]

CronoDragoon wrote...

At like 79% percent Galactic Readiness, the message is something like "Alliance forces are holding steady and gaining ground in some places." That's without the crucible. Yeah, it's just a multiplayer message, but since all of this is speculation anyway...

I got the sense that was referring to Reaper ground troops. But ok.

[MattFini]

Defeating them conventionally would've been a far superior and climactic way to stop the whole invasion, rather than the sloppy junk that comes forth once StarChild enters the picture.

[Red Dust]

Sepharih wrote...

However, what are we SHOWN?  We are shown:
-The Alliance fleet defeating both the Geth and Sovereign in ME1 (with your help).
-A derilict reaper in ME2 that seems to have been defeated conventionally and gets blown up.
-Shepard and two squadmates defeating a WIP Reaper in ME2 with small arms fire.
-A Thresher maw, a (admittedly larger) kind of creature you routinely defeated in the Mako, going toe to toe and winning against Reaper.
-Shepard defeating a Reaper himself with the help of the migrant fleet.
-Shepard using missles against one and destroying it in the final mission before Harbinger appears.

1: The whole of The Alliance Fleet + The remains of the Citadel fleets would never have killed Sovereign, had he not stooped to control Sarren. The destruction of which somehow caused his shields to shut down. That was not a conventional defeat by any means. It was a circomstance they would be unable to duplicate.

2- That reaper was struck by a weapon SO LARGE it scarred the planet behind the Reaper. Not really a conventional weapon, and while it wounded one reaper, the race that built it where eventually harvested. Again, the Reapers are not defeated.

3- That's like punching Mike Tyson as a fetus and claiming yourself the world heavyweight champion.

4- A creature of greater-size used surprise and brute force to crush the reaper. Kalros was a hundred times larger than any Threasher-maw Shepard faced. That's like stepping on an ant then saying "Sure. Based on these results I believe I can wrestle a Rachnai. It's like the same thing, right?"

5- This is the one case where conventional weapons (Thanix cannons. Lots and lots of them, developed from The Reaper's own tech) felled a Reaper. One of the "small" ones. Under, again, circomstances that would be near impossible to duplicate. A whole fleet against ONE small reaper. In a full battle there could be a hundred or more Destroyer-class Reapers like the one on Rannoch.

5- Another "destroyer class" reaper taken down. Another near-impossible pin-point strike to a weak spot "real" (I.E MUCH MUCH LARGER AND MORE POWERFUL) Soveriegn-class reapers may or may-not have (I'm guessing not.)

So no. We can't beat them conventionally. As stated at least twelve times over the course of the game by Admiral Hackett. 

[Litany of Fury]

Actually, all Alliance ships are fitted with Thanix cannons. Which kind of explains why a cruiser can blow a 'leg' off of a Reaper-class in a single shot (this is seen in the final fleet batle if you have a high enough EMS). The combined fleets do pack one hell of a punch, and seem to be able to evade Reaper lasers, and in some cases take several hits before being destroyed.

Also, I think that the laser on a Sovereign-class is a weakspot. During the battle in Earth's orbit a trio of Reapers tilt upwards to fire their main guns. Two fire (and miss, lol), while the thrid takes a direct hit to its weapon systems, doesn't fire, and doesn't seem to be able to close its 'legs' again (unlike the other two, IIRC).

In regards to being outnumbered, from what I saw the combined fleet had way, way, way more ships than the Reapers had around Earth. The fleet coming through the relay stretched all the way across the screen and goes back beyond sight range, while the Reapers don't have anywhere near as many ships on screen at any one time. I reckon there's around 1000 Sovereign-classes, maybe a bit less, and a lot of Destroyers.

Now, the Quarians ALONE throw tens of thousands of armed ships into the fray. Goodness knows how many the Geth supply, nor how big the average Turian/Human/Asari fleet is, and they throw lots of those in.

So yes, I think they have a fighting chance at taking out the reapers.

Slightly unrelated, but you know the Codex entry about the Turian counterattack on Palaven mentions Sovereigns being taken out by a single bomb from the inside? Why don't they strap those crazy things onto fighters and use them as close-range bombers? More to the point, why don't they have anti-ship space bombers? You'd think that they'd be really useful...

[LegacyOfTheAsh]

The whole "what we're told/shown" idea falls apart when you factor in that we are shown and told different things. Hackett, Anderson and others say we cannot defeat them conventionally. However, in the Codex, under, The Reaper War (I think), there are intelligence experts that believe we could defeat them conventionally. So we are told that we can beat them and that we cannot beat them by conventional means. We have also been shown instances of reapers being defeated conventionally where it took a large amount of firepower to take one down. We were shown images of Reapers laying complete waste to organic forces as well. I am not saying it can or cannot be done. I'm just saying that "shown" compared to "told" doesn't prove anything.

[The Exiled Paladin]

One of the things that I found dissapointing with the space battles has already been mentioned but the newer Alliance Kilimanjaro class Dreadnoughts have 156 broadside guns that 78 on each broadside, now of these ships had been fitted with Thanix weapons I think a single broadside salvo would have quite easily demolished even a Sovereign class reaper (give how effective a single Thanix battery was against a reaper enhanced collector vessel in ME2) provided it didn't get pummeled by the reapers main gun first. But no the only ship in the entire battle you see firing the Thanix weapons is the Normandy on its approach to earth to drop off Hammer elements.

It would have awesome to see some of these Dreadnoughts jump in fire off a few salvos an kill some repaers and watch then as the reapers focussed their fire on the Dreadnoughts whilst being hammered with fire from the rest of Sword Fleet..

[poundoffleshaa]

All guns in the mass effect series are projectile mass launcher (except for the guardian particle weapons), they have bombs too and mass effect torpedo. The Thanix canon looks different from normal projectiles in that it looks more like a laser than a projectile gun because it shoots a stream of magma rather than a coherent mass like a gun. 

Modifié par poundoffleshaa, 26 mars 2012 - 05:08 .

[Welsh Inferno]

Were forgetting the fact that the Reapers controlled every system at that point in the story as well. The only system we still held was whatever secret one the Crucible was being built in. I imagine if we began to overrun and get a foot hold on the Reapers in Sol, the rest of their fleet would turn up and we'd be sandwiched in the middle... not good.

[FemmeShep]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

So do you think each cycle had a Shepard or someone that united everyone to fight?

I have no idea. No way of knowing. Looking at the diversity in just our cycle to how different the Protheans were leads me to believe there were many different kinds of Empires.

Only thing we have to show resistence to Reapers is the weapon from Klendagon. 

Well, I would like to think that each cycle is unique and different. And that in our cycle, it was the first time where entire galaxy rallied together in a concentrated attack. I think it would make the most sense thematically for the series.

But I also don't believe in coming up with plot that doesn't exist. And you are right, if we don't have full knowldege of past cycles, there is sadly, no way to know. Either way, my point still stands. IMO the way the end battle was set up, I did not believe that the Reapers were a guaranteed win against the Galaxy's entire fleet. 

[Subject M]

FemmeShep wrote...

Subject M wrote...

No, no chance in defeating the conventionally. Its not their narrative function or logical given what we have been shown. They would be able to give them a fight, but they would fail if the reapers did not act like they where stupid. Arrogance is one thing, but I doubt they would repeat the mistake if soloing up close against a couple of Turian dreadnaughts is dangerous. The only way they could have been beaten conventionally would have been if the crucible+Citadel was one giant space gun they could use to target reaper signatures and fire devastating beams of directed energy or something.

I actually disagree. As I said, in the past their cycle worked, because most of the life in these cycles were too worried about their own homeplanets. With everyone scattered, the war effort was never centralized. This allowed the Reapers to go to planet to planet, and pick off each race without breaking a sweat.

In this cycle, Shepard unites the entire galaxy, and centralizes the biggest army in the history of all life (even outnumbering the Reapers). I don't think BioWare did a good enough job maiking the Reapers overpowered, and their (Organics) loss inevitable.

If anything, the final battle made you think: you're telling me they all can't destroy the reapers?

If they, lets say outnumbered the reaper capital ships 5-1 with dreadnaughts, Destroyers with Cruisers, etc they would have a chance unless the reapers where really smart. Oh wait...

Modifié par Subject M, 26 mars 2012 - 05:10 .

[Geneaux486]

They've been able to defeat single Reapers conventionally, usually by the skin of their teeth, and usually at great cost.  They could have possibly been able to defeat the Reaper fleet conventionally had everyone listened to Shepard and prepared, but as hard as each race got hit, the Crucible was still the best and possibly only option.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 26 mars 2012 - 05:09 .

[ZLurps]

poundoffleshaa wrote...

All guns in the mass effect series are projectile mass launcher (except for the guardian particle weapons), they have bombs too and mass effect torpedo. The Thanix canon looks different from normal projectiles in that it looks more like a laser than a projectile gun because it shoots a stream of magma rather than a coherent mass like a gun.

Damn, that sounds about right...

I think it must be artistic license in the cut scene then. If all those projectiles were replaced by beams, we wouldn't see much but beams on screen.

[II JazB x]

Hold on a minute.

It is stated early on the Turians were holding the Reapers at Palaven but were slowly losing the planet. The Turian fleet was at least holding for a while. Now consider the Turian fleet was fairly large, but not as large as it could have been, as they had to protect other colonies, alongside the Volus worlds and also contribute to the Citadel Fleet. The Reapers are far from indestructible. The Turians had to fall back primarily because the Reapers used FTL to get past them over to Palaven so their plan fell apart. This instance alone suggests the Reapers can lose in a outright fight, as the Turians plan would have worked if they didn't have to defend Palaven.

[Anteocitis]

if you read the in-game codex it tells you very clearly that you can conventially destroy reapers uisng combined fire of a number of a ships

[ajm317]

Personally I think that defeating the Reapers conventionally would have been an even worse ending to the story than the one we got. Civilizations have been trying the "use more guns" approach to beating the Reapers for 10's of millions of years to no success. It would have been pretty silly if the current cycle succeeded using that strategy without some extensive in game explanation that we never got.

Yes we are shown beating the Reapers on multiple occasions, but I actually think all those incidents serve to reinforce the Reapers power, not degrade it. Every time we kill a Reaper we have an overwhelming advantage in numbers or surprise. What's more it is always A Reaper. We never take out a Reaper fleet or even 2 Reapers. Maybe when the entire Quarian Migrant Fleet takes out a single destroy Reaper after multiple volleys the OP takes that as some sort of validation that conventional tactics would work. Personally I see it as confirmation that such tactics are futile against the dozens and dozens of Reapers we see orbiting Earth, to say nothing of the countless Reapers also located at Thessia, Palaven etc.

[Geneaux486]

Anteocitis wrote...

if you read the in-game codex it tells you very clearly that you can conventially destroy reapers uisng combined fire of a number of a ships

It takes a large number of ships to destroy one Reaper that way.  Meanwhile, its buddies are also attacking.  That's why they kept overwhelming even the best defenses.

[Sangheili_1337]

With the way the Reapers were built up, nothing short of a deus ex machina could stop them. It would be truly ridiculous if the galaxy was able to defeat the Reapers. They are not invincible, but that doesnt mean they could be defeated conventionally. They outnumbered the united galaxy's fleet, have vastly more firepower, twice their FTL speed, and no need of feeding their population and acquiring fuel. The codex states that 4 dreadnaughts are required in order to be on even footing with a Reaper. A Reaper can one shot a dreadnaught. No matter how intelligently they were engaged, the Reapers should win 100% of the time.

[moater boat]

I agree completely. It wasn't until ME3 that everyone started saying that they couldn't be defeated conventionally. The Reapers are powerful, I won't dispute that, but the fact that they always won was based on their STRATEGY not their strength. By tricking all the major species to use the citadel as their seat of government, it allowed the Reapers to start their war with a decapitative strike and gave them access to important intel about their enemies. The Reapers NEVER had to fight a conventional war before. Every other time it was over before it started.

In spite of this huge advantage we know that other cycles still went down swinging. The fact that the Reapers had to adapt to a new situation that they had never encountered before really put them at a disadvantage. Add in the fact this cycle had access to weapons based on reaper tech (thanix cannons) and it is obvious that a large enough fleet could pull it off.

It would have been far better than the Dues Ex Machina Crucible.

[Anteocitis]

Red Dust wrote...

So no. We can't beat them conventionally. As stated at least twelve times over the course of the game by Admiral Hackett. 

hackett does indeed say that alot, however the codex and what we are shown directly contraditcs that.

[Anteocitis]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Anteocitis wrote...

if you read the in-game codex it tells you very clearly that you can conventially destroy reapers uisng combined fire of a number of a ships

It takes a large number of ships to destroy one Reaper that way.  Meanwhile, its buddies are also attacking.  That's why they kept overwhelming even the best defenses.

Except they dont.

The entire strategic methodology of the Reapers invites "defeat in detail" as they always split up their forces. its very dumb.

[alberta]

The strength of the Reaper does NOT lie in their numbers - in fact the Reapers are actually few in real numbers. The strength of the Reapers lies in their shields - they only have one frontal gun and to this point in time we have seen how NOT to attack Reapers - front on. That's Napoleonic strategy when armies marched to face each other face to face and used attrition mere yards apart.

[Sepharih]

 

Red Dust wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

However, what are we SHOWN?  We are shown:
-The Alliance fleet defeating both the Geth and Sovereign in ME1 (with your help).
-A derilict reaper in ME2 that seems to have been defeated conventionally and gets blown up.
-Shepard and two squadmates defeating a WIP Reaper in ME2 with small arms fire.
-A Thresher maw, a (admittedly larger) kind of creature you routinely defeated in the Mako, going toe to toe and winning against Reaper.
-Shepard defeating a Reaper himself with the help of the migrant fleet.
-Shepard using missles against one and destroying it in the final mission before Harbinger appears.

1: The whole of The Alliance Fleet + The remains of the Citadel fleets would never have killed Sovereign, had he not stooped to control Sarren. The destruction of which somehow caused his shields to shut down. That was not a conventional defeat by any means. It was a circomstance they would be unable to duplicate.

2- That reaper was struck by a weapon SO LARGE it scarred the planet behind the Reaper. Not really a conventional weapon, and while it wounded one reaper, the race that built it where eventually harvested. Again, the Reapers are not defeated.

3- That's like punching Mike Tyson as a fetus and claiming yourself the world heavyweight champion.

4- A creature of greater-size used surprise and brute force to crush the reaper. Kalros was a hundred times larger than any Threasher-maw Shepard faced. That's like stepping on an ant then saying "Sure. Based on these results I believe I can wrestle a Rachnai. It's like the same thing, right?"

5- This is the one case where conventional weapons (Thanix cannons. Lots and lots of them, developed from The Reaper's own tech) felled a Reaper. One of the "small" ones. Under, again, circomstances that would be near impossible to duplicate. A whole fleet against ONE small reaper. In a full battle there could be a hundred or more Destroyer-class Reapers like the one on Rannoch.

5- Another "destroyer class" reaper taken down. Another near-impossible pin-point strike to a weak spot "real" (I.E MUCH MUCH LARGER AND MORE POWERFUL) Soveriegn-class reapers may or may-not have (I'm guessing not.)

So no. We can't beat them conventionally. As stated at least twelve times over the course of the game by Admiral Hackett. 

 

You've missed my point also.

LegacyOfTheAsh wrote...

The whole "what we're told/shown" idea falls apart when you factor in that we are shown and told different things. Hackett, Anderson and others say we cannot defeat them conventionally. However, in the Codex, under, The Reaper War (I think), there are intelligence experts that believe we could defeat them conventionally. So we are told that we can beat them and that we cannot beat them by conventional means. We have also been shown instances of reapers being defeated conventionally where it took a large amount of firepower to take one down. We were shown images of Reapers laying complete waste to organic forces as well. I am not saying it can or cannot be done. I'm just saying that "shown" compared to "told" doesn't prove anything.

I'm not trying to "prove" anything.  I'm not trying to say these examples "prove" the fleet could have destroyed the reapers.  I'm just saying that the game's storytelling is sending mixed messages...which you seem to agree with.

Modifié par Sepharih, 26 mars 2012 - 05:16 .

[ZLurps]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Anteocitis wrote...

if you read the in-game codex it tells you very clearly that you can conventially destroy reapers uisng combined fire of a number of a ships

It takes a large number of ships to destroy one Reaper that way.  Meanwhile, its buddies are also attacking.  That's why they kept overwhelming even the best defenses.

This and it's not even fight by any means. In ME1 we see that Reaper dread one shots Alliance cruisers with it's beam weapons. It doesn't even need to use it's main gun.

[poundoffleshaa]

It is hinted at in the codex that the Reapers have always avoided fighting the entire galaxy at one time, that they struck with precision and cunning using all the Citadels Data to target the right places. Facing an allied front and without that tactical data I see no reason the reapers couldn't lose.