318 réponses à ce sujet

[MrCorvin]

The Krogan show up with a gun that shoots thresher maws.... Joker's idea was the best.

[alberta]

Hudathan wrote...

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

What they could have done is have the Crucible cripple the Reapers in some way. Maybe frenzy them so they attack each other. The united galaxy fleet would then finish off the stragglers. Would have been a hell of a lot better than what we got.

If they did that then people would just be up in arms about how it's a Hollywood Independance Day ending. Do you honestly think the same people complaining about the current endings wouldn't rip right through a Reaper-power-button?

All we need the Crucible to have done is to take down the Reaper shields - with that done we can take on the Reapers and eventually win this war. Becauase the power of the Reapers lies in their shielding not their numbers nor their one gun.

[Rocktel]

alberta wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

What they could have done is have the Crucible cripple the Reapers in some way. Maybe frenzy them so they attack each other. The united galaxy fleet would then finish off the stragglers. Would have been a hell of a lot better than what we got.

If they did that then people would just be up in arms about how it's a Hollywood Independance Day ending. Do you honestly think the same people complaining about the current endings wouldn't rip right through a Reaper-power-button?

All we need the Crucible to have done is to take down the Reaper shields - with that done we can take on the Reapers and eventually win this war. Becauase the power of the Reapers lies in their shielding not their numbers nor their one gun.

Wron g. Reapers CAN be killed when their barriers are down, they're still more powerful than any other ship and have the advantage of numbers. Sovereign was impossibly outnumbeered. Reaper fleet is not

Modifié par Rocktel, 26 mars 2012 - 06:19 .

[NA1]

Please stop trying to argue for conventional warfare when you have no idea what it means.

[esideras]

Why not make the crucible a giant reaper specific EMP that wipes out their shields. DONE.

[Sepharih]

Positronics wrote...
And btw OP, thanix cannon was never sold as a Reaper-killer. It was sold as a Collector-ship killer. Two very different things.

I never mentioned the thanix cannon.

Positronics wrote... 
Please explain to all of us how specifically the Reapers could be defeated conventionally, as it takes at least 4 dreadnoughts per 1 Reaper to make par tactically, and there are so few dreadnoughts as compared to Reapers.

Please explain how something with no need for supply lines andsomething that turns your strategic depth against you can be defeated without the Crucible killswitch.

An attrition stratgey won't work, because as said before, Reapers have no need for supply lines and thus no need for most resources. A battle of annihilation won't work, because as said before, the largest fleet ever assembled got trounced by the Earth-based Reapers.

The entire galactic economy collapses in one year, and the production bases of all the major races are already gone. So what do you propose?

My point is not to explain how they could have defeated them conventionally.

My point is simply that despite what the lore and what the actual reality of the situation might suggest, if the story wants you to believe that the Reapers cannot be defeated with conventional weapons and over the top heroics then it has a very very poor way of showing it.

Again...I'm talking about the story here....not actual tactics.

NA1 wrote...

Please stop trying to argue for conventional warfare when you have no idea what it means.

 
I don't need to for my argument.

Modifié par Sepharih, 26 mars 2012 - 06:23 .

[Positronics]

alberta wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

What they could have done is have the Crucible cripple the Reapers in some way. Maybe frenzy them so they attack each other. The united galaxy fleet would then finish off the stragglers. Would have been a hell of a lot better than what we got.

If they did that then people would just be up in arms about how it's a Hollywood Independance Day ending. Do you honestly think the same people complaining about the current endings wouldn't rip right through a Reaper-power-button?

All we need the Crucible to have done is to take down the Reaper shields - with that done we can take on the Reapers and eventually win this war. Becauase the power of the Reapers lies in their shielding not their numbers nor their one gun.

BRILLIANT BRILLIANT BRILLIANT! Jeff Goldblum installs a computer virus into the Crucible that takes out all the Reaper shields, and have a scene where Javik goes "HELLO BOYS, I'M BAAAACK" while flying into sovereign's eye and then don't forget to have Shepard and Anderson smoking cigars while standing next to a burning and crashed Citadel.

God, this is the ending you guys want? Why not also add Shep backflipping off a missile and skateboarding down sovereign while slow motion duel pistoling him with some hardcore rock music blasting.

Good thing Bioware has writers that made an ending that doesn't scream with Hollywood's human exceptionalism.

[poundoffleshaa]

Where does it state the reapers outnumbered the rest of the galaxy, they are superior to alliance ships in every way but given they have no reinforcements and replacing 1 reapers takes massive amounts of work (harvesting billions) compared to replacing normal ships I wouldn't think they have the numbers advantage. 

Modifié par poundoffleshaa, 26 mars 2012 - 06:25 .

[Silhouett3]

Actually, defeating Reapers is a task less about space combat and more about fighting indoctrination. Fleets won't do you any good when your leaders are indoctrinated.

[Troubleshooter11]

- The codex states the Humans use carriers(*) with a huge amount of fighters on board.
- The codex states the Thanix cannon can be mounted on fighters and frigates.
- The codex states the Alliance has commenced large scale deployment of Thanix cannons on fighters and frigates.
- The codex states that Reapers turn slower than organic dreadnaughts.
- The codex states that frigates operate in wolfpack flotillas to do hit-and-run attacks with shield bypassing javelin torpedoes while dodging fire with their small size and high speeds.(*2)
- Thanix cannons cut through barriers like it's not even there.
- Reapers seem to have little to no point defense other than Oculus fighters.

Screw dreadnaughts and cruisers. Lets get frigates and fighters and bee-sting the hell out of those damn Reapers! Am i the only one to see the beauty of this plan?...i probably am..




(*) Turians are also noted to be using carriers as from ME3 onwards atleast. Whether these are the cruiser-carrier hybrids they also had in ME1-2 or pure human inspired floating airstrips is unknown.
(*2) This can be seen to great effect in the ME1 final battle and in ME2 vs the Collector ship.

Modifié par Troubleshooter11, 26 mars 2012 - 06:27 .

[Sepharih]

Positronics wrote...
Good thing Bioware has writers that made an ending that doesn't scream with Hollywood's human exceptionalism.

That'd be fine....if human exceptionalism wasn't one of the major themes of the series.

[Giantdeathrobot]

It takes 4 dreadnoughts to reliably defeat a capital Reaper.

The galaxy has, tops, 20 dreadnoughts.

Estimates vary, but if there was 1 capital Reaper per cycle that's a couple thousands of them. Not counting support ships and Destroyers.

We can't beat them.

Not to mention that at this pace galactic economy is ruined in one year. The loss of the Citadel would further accelerate this.

[poundoffleshaa]

I personally thought the only logical thing the Crucible could be after finding out the Citadel was needed was a master control terminal for all of the mass relays. Being able to control the relays and say lock out an entire sector of space would give an overwhelming tactical advantage to the allies. If you had something like that your fleet size could be meaningful (you can win battles) and the Crucible could also be meaningful. 

Modifié par poundoffleshaa, 26 mars 2012 - 06:31 .

[Troubleshooter11]

Positronics wrote...

alberta wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

What they could have done is have the Crucible cripple the Reapers in some way. Maybe frenzy them so they attack each other. The united galaxy fleet would then finish off the stragglers. Would have been a hell of a lot better than what we got.

If they did that then people would just be up in arms about how it's a Hollywood Independance Day ending. Do you honestly think the same people complaining about the current endings wouldn't rip right through a Reaper-power-button?

All we need the Crucible to have done is to take down the Reaper shields - with that done we can take on the Reapers and eventually win this war. Becauase the power of the Reapers lies in their shielding not their numbers nor their one gun.

BRILLIANT BRILLIANT BRILLIANT! Jeff Goldblum installs a computer virus into the Crucible that takes out all the Reaper shields, and have a scene where Javik goes "HELLO BOYS, I'M BAAAACK" while flying into sovereign's eye and then don't forget to have Shepard and Anderson smoking cigars while standing next to a burning and crashed Citadel.

God, this is the ending you guys want? Why not also add Shep backflipping off a missile and skateboarding down sovereign while slow motion duel pistoling him with some hardcore rock music blasting.

Good thing Bioware has writers that made an ending that doesn't scream with Hollywood's human exceptionalism.

You mean like in ME1 when Shepard killed Sovereign's avatar (Saren) and disrupted the shields, after which the tiny Normandy impales Sovvy with a single shot.

Or like in ME2 when they overcame impossible odds and beat the crap out of a human-reaper larva that's so big it would make a battlemech **** copper bolts. And they did it on foot.

[ZLurps]

poundoffleshaa wrote...

Where does it state the reapers outnumbered the rest of the galaxy, they are superior to alliance ships in every way but given they have no reinforcements and replacing 1 reapers takes massive amounts of work (harvesting billions) compared to replacing normal ships I wouldn't think they have the numbers advantage. 

Where you build your ships when orbital yards needed to build anything bigger than at least detroyer, are blown to pieces? It's total war out there.

What comes to numbers, some very good calculations were already posted in this thread. We know that Reapers are all over the galaxy in the end game from the galaxy map. Nothing suggests their ranks are thin.

[Subject9x]

Troubleshooter11 wrote...

Positronics wrote...

alberta wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

What they could have done is have the Crucible cripple the Reapers in some way. Maybe frenzy them so they attack each other. The united galaxy fleet would then finish off the stragglers. Would have been a hell of a lot better than what we got.

If they did that then people would just be up in arms about how it's a Hollywood Independance Day ending. Do you honestly think the same people complaining about the current endings wouldn't rip right through a Reaper-power-button?

All we need the Crucible to have done is to take down the Reaper shields - with that done we can take on the Reapers and eventually win this war. Becauase the power of the Reapers lies in their shielding not their numbers nor their one gun.

BRILLIANT BRILLIANT BRILLIANT! Jeff Goldblum installs a computer virus into the Crucible that takes out all the Reaper shields, and have a scene where Javik goes "HELLO BOYS, I'M BAAAACK" while flying into sovereign's eye and then don't forget to have Shepard and Anderson smoking cigars while standing next to a burning and crashed Citadel.

God, this is the ending you guys want? Why not also add Shep backflipping off a missile and skateboarding down sovereign while slow motion duel pistoling him with some hardcore rock music blasting.

Good thing Bioware has writers that made an ending that doesn't scream with Hollywood's human exceptionalism.

You mean like in ME1 when Shepard killed Sovereign's avatar (Saren) and disrupted the shields, after which the tiny Normandy impales Sovvy with a single shot.

Or like in ME2 when they overcame impossible odds and beat the crap out of a human-reaper larva that's so big it would make a battlemech **** copper bolts. And they did it on foot.

+1 for use of 'battlemech'
I think a point missed here is: plot ratchets up Reaper unstoppability...
likewise the plot can make them beatable as well.

lets face it, ME3 gave the Reapers plot armor just as much as ME1 gave the Normandy plot guns.
So no, they're not unstoppable because of lore, they're unstoppable because writers told us so, which is just as bad, because there are many here like myself asking why?

also  I support shepard dueling harby on a surboard with pistols and rock music blasting...and blasto is next to him/her

[Ultra Prism]

Hah mixed messages ... thats true ... seriously idk Bioware made too many mistakes for main plot, subplots are too good while main plot goes to straight hell

[Positronics]

Sepharih wrote...

Positronics wrote...
And btw OP, thanix cannon was never sold as a Reaper-killer. It was sold as a Collector-ship killer. Two very different things.

I never mentioned the thanix cannon.

Positronics wrote... 
Please explain to all of us how specifically the Reapers could be defeated conventionally, as it takes at least 4 dreadnoughts per 1 Reaper to make par tactically, and there are so few dreadnoughts as compared to Reapers.

Please explain how something with no need for supply lines andsomething that turns your strategic depth against you can be defeated without the Crucible killswitch.

An attrition stratgey won't work, because as said before, Reapers have no need for supply lines and thus no need for most resources. A battle of annihilation won't work, because as said before, the largest fleet ever assembled got trounced by the Earth-based Reapers.

The entire galactic economy collapses in one year, and the production bases of all the major races are already gone. So what do you propose?

My point is not to explain how they could have defeated them conventionally.

My point is simply that despite what the lore and what the actual reality of the situation might suggest, if the story wants you to believe that the Reapers cannot be defeated with conventional weapons and over the top heroics then it has a very very poor way of showing it.

Again...I'm talking about the story here....not actual tactics.

NA1 wrote...

Please stop trying to argue for conventional warfare when you have no idea what it means.

 
I don't need to for my argument.

The story doesn't say that one Reaper cannot be defeated with conventional weapons (it actually shows that 4 dreadnoughts = 1 Reaper) the story says that the Reapers as a whole cannot be defeated by conventional -warfare-, two very different concepts. 

2186 (just before Reaper invasion)

Turian Dreadnoughts: 39
Asari Dreadnoughts: 20
Salarian Dreadnoughts: 16
Human Dreadnoughts: 9
Volus Dreadnoughts: 1 (under turian command)

Add those numbers together and you get 85. Thats all the dreadnoughts in the galaxy.

Given that 4 dreadnoughts have the capability to destroy 1 Reaper, and generously assuming that every 4 dreadnoughts miraculously brings down 1 Reaper before they are destroyed, this means that 21 Reapers in total are gone. Now lets be -extra- generous, and propose that through your "over the top heroics" strategy, that  brought down three times that number, thats still only 63 Reapers. Let's say that everyone does some REALLY HUGE over the top heroics and brings down a two Reapers for every dreadnought lost. Totally unbelievable, but it sounds like the ending you want... well guess what? It's still not enough, because that is only 170 Reapers lost. We know from cutscenes there are at least 250 Reaper Capital Ships, and over a thousand all together.

So please explain how corny your ending wouldn't look if we through "over the top heroics" beat the Reapers conventionally.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Sepharih wrote...

You are missing my point.

I know you and Bioware can explain away all of the examples i've shown with notes like "this was a smaller reaper" or "this one took the combined might of the whole fleet".  There's a difference between storytelling themes and established lore.

If you want to tell a story that shows the player that the reapers cannot be defeated conventionally then you should not have them defeat the reapers conventionally at almost every story beat. 

No, I understood your point, and you're missing my point.

You think of these Reaper deaths as "conventional" when they're special cases, and explicitly established throughout the entire series as being special cases. They're so special that ONLY the player can do it. After all, Shepard always does the impossible. 

A conventional battle happens on Earth. It gets overrun within the span of 10 minutes. Palaven goes from being untouched to buring visibly from space between the start of the game and when you meet Garrus. Thessia falls so quickly that it's even more of a tragic joke than Earth was. Those are conventional battles, and the Reapers win all of them.

You either fail to understand that the Reapers have never been beaten conventionally, or you don't want to understand it because you really, really don't want to accept the ending.

Modifié par Orthodox Infidel, 26 mars 2012 - 06:42 .

[AlexMBrennan]

OK, assuming we were able to beat the Reapers with fighter-mounted thanix cannons - what would have been the point of ME3? Further, the anthropic principle implies that Shepard is the one to defeat the Reapers, and not an anonymous fleet of fighters equipped with thanix cannons

[Positronics]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

OK, assuming we were able to beat the Reapers with fighter-mounted thanix cannons - what would have been the point of ME3? Further, the anthropic principle implies that Shepard is the one to defeat the Reapers, and not an anonymous fleet of fighters equipped with thanix cannons

The thanix is -never- sold as a Reaper killer, it's sold as a Collector ship killer. Two very very different things.

[poundoffleshaa]

Positronics wrote...

The story doesn't say that one Reaper cannot be defeated with conventional weapons (it actually shows that 4 dreadnoughts = 1 Reaper) the story says that the Reapers as a whole cannot be defeated by conventional -warfare-, two very different concepts. 

2186 (just before Reaper invasion)

Turian Dreadnoughts: 39
Asari Dreadnoughts: 20
Salarian Dreadnoughts: 16
Human Dreadnoughts: 9
Volus Dreadnoughts: 1 (under turian command)

Add those numbers together and you get 85. Thats all the dreadnoughts in the galaxy.

Given that 4 dreadnoughts have the capability to destroy 1 Reaper, and generously assuming that every 4 dreadnoughts miraculously brings down 1 Reaper before they are destroyed, this means that 21 Reapers in total are gone. Now lets be -extra- generous, and propose that through your "over the top heroics" strategy, that  brought down three times that number, thats still only 63 Reapers. Let's say that everyone does some REALLY HUGE over the top heroics and brings down a two Reapers for every dreadnought lost. Totally unbelievable, but it sounds like the ending you want... well guess what? It's still not enough, because that is only 170 Reapers lost. We know from cutscenes there are at least 250 Reaper Capital Ships, and over a thousand all together.

So please explain how corny your ending wouldn't look if we through "over the top heroics" beat the Reapers conventionally.

There are other ships other than dreadnoughts. 

[Sepharih]

Edit: almost missed this one:
 

Positronics wrote...
The story doesn't say that one Reaper cannot be defeated with conventional weapons (it actually shows that 4 dreadnoughts = 1 Reaper) the story says that the Reapers as a whole cannot be defeated by conventional -warfare-, two very different concepts. 

 
True...but I still feel like this isn't very well developed in the story.  Shepard just has too much heroic success and this point is kind of lost in the story, which is why a lot of the criticism feels like the endings and other things are out of tone withe most of the game.

Positronics wrote...
So please explain how corny your ending wouldn't look if we through "over the top heroics" beat the Reapers conventionally.

 
I don't mind it being a little corny.  A lot of moments in the series are pretty corny.  I'll take corny over the pretentious nonsensical ending in a heartbeat.

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

No, I understood your point, and you're missing my point.

You think of these Reaper deaths as "conventional" when they're special cases, and explicitly established throughout the entire series as being special cases. They're so special that ONLY the player can stop the ALL of Reapers. 

A conventional battle happens on Earth. It gets overrun within the span of 10 minutes. Palaven goes from being untouched to buring visibly from space between the start of the game and when you meet Garrus. Thessia falls so quickly that it's even more of a tragic joke than Earth was. Those are conventional battles, and the Reapers win all of them.

You either fail to understand that the Reapers have never been beaten conventionally, or you don't want to understand it because you really, really don't want to accept the ending.

Of course I don't accept the ending.  It's terrible.

As I clarified in the first post at the bottom, I admit my use of the word "conventional" was a poor choice of words.

Modifié par Sepharih, 26 mars 2012 - 06:53 .

[Subject9x]

you could argue that shepard raising and building the fleet of thanix-armed fleet of fighters is equivalent to shepard beating the reapers. In fact, that's what I thought I was doing all along, I didn't care for some ancient macguffin, and I lost a little respect for Bioware when they pulled that. Hard to argue for good writing when in a single game they pull out tired ol' frankenstein trope, unwarranted singularity debate, and good ol' wonder weapon macguffin. I think ME3 writes the Reapers as too damn powerful, which leaves a military history nerd like me scratching my head. The reaper body design is also incredible ineffecient for the task they are given.

[Positronics]

poundoffleshaa wrote...

Positronics wrote...

The story doesn't say that one Reaper cannot be defeated with conventional weapons (it actually shows that 4 dreadnoughts = 1 Reaper) the story says that the Reapers as a whole cannot be defeated by conventional -warfare-, two very different concepts. 

2186 (just before Reaper invasion)

Turian Dreadnoughts: 39
Asari Dreadnoughts: 20
Salarian Dreadnoughts: 16
Human Dreadnoughts: 9
Volus Dreadnoughts: 1 (under turian command)

Add those numbers together and you get 85. Thats all the dreadnoughts in the galaxy.

Given that 4 dreadnoughts have the capability to destroy 1 Reaper, and generously assuming that every 4 dreadnoughts miraculously brings down 1 Reaper before they are destroyed, this means that 21 Reapers in total are gone. Now lets be -extra- generous, and propose that through your "over the top heroics" strategy, that  brought down three times that number, thats still only 63 Reapers. Let's say that everyone does some REALLY HUGE over the top heroics and brings down a two Reapers for every dreadnought lost. Totally unbelievable, but it sounds like the ending you want... well guess what? It's still not enough, because that is only 170 Reapers lost. We know from cutscenes there are at least 250 Reaper Capital Ships, and over a thousand all together.

So please explain how corny your ending wouldn't look if we through "over the top heroics" beat the Reapers conventionally.

There are other ships other than dreadnoughts. 

Yeah, and? Smaller vessels don't even scratch a Reaper capital ship, it's flat out said in codex.

And before you say the Normandy, that was against a completely unshielded Sovereign already under dreadnought fire.