318 réponses à ce sujet

[moater boat]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

It takes 4 dreadnoughts to reliably defeat a capital Reaper.

The galaxy has, tops, 20 dreadnoughts.

Estimates vary, but if there was 1 capital Reaper per cycle that's a couple thousands of them. Not counting support ships and Destroyers.

We can't beat them.

Not to mention that at this pace galactic economy is ruined in one year. The loss of the Citadel would further accelerate this.

How do we know how many ships the Galaxy has? 20 seems Rediculously low. Even the Volus had a dreadnaught.

[moater boat]

poundoffleshaa wrote...

I personally thought the only logical thing the Crucible could be after finding out the Citadel was needed was a master control terminal for all of the mass relays. Being able to control the relays and say lock out an entire sector of space would give an overwhelming tactical advantage to the allies. If you had something like that your fleet size could be meaningful (you can win battles) and the Crucible could also be meaningful. 

I also think this is the best possible explanation for the crucible. It also explains how each cycle was actually able to add to the designs, because they were all familiar with mass relay technology.

[ajm317]

moater boat wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

It takes 4 dreadnoughts to reliably defeat a capital Reaper.

The galaxy has, tops, 20 dreadnoughts.

Estimates vary, but if there was 1 capital Reaper per cycle that's a couple thousands of them. Not counting support ships and Destroyers.

We can't beat them.

Not to mention that at this pace galactic economy is ruined in one year. The loss of the Citadel would further accelerate this.

How do we know how many ships the Galaxy has? 20 seems Rediculously low. Even the Volus had a dreadnaught.

Number of dreadnoughts possessed by the council races is stated in the codex.  It isn't 20, but it's less than 100.

[Subject9x]

to be frank, the estimated fleet size for every faction in the galaxy is completely underestimated. The sheer scale of resources that are found practically implies massive space navies. You need these massive navies to patrol and protect the massive borders you have....because you know, you're in space, and as we all know, space is huge.

[ZLurps]

moater boat wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

It takes 4 dreadnoughts to reliably defeat a capital Reaper.

The galaxy has, tops, 20 dreadnoughts.

Estimates vary, but if there was 1 capital Reaper per cycle that's a couple thousands of them. Not counting support ships and Destroyers.

We can't beat them.

Not to mention that at this pace galactic economy is ruined in one year. The loss of the Citadel would further accelerate this.

How do we know how many ships the Galaxy has? 20 seems Rediculously low. Even the Volus had a dreadnaught.

There is 85 (minus those lost in defence of Earth and Palaven)

Source, Codex:
"As of 2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human. By 2186, humans construct a ninth dreadnought, and the volus have built a single dreadnought of their own."

Modifié par ZLurps, 26 mars 2012 - 06:58 .

[alberta]

ajm317 wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

It takes 4 dreadnoughts to reliably defeat a capital Reaper.

The galaxy has, tops, 20 dreadnoughts.

Estimates vary, but if there was 1 capital Reaper per cycle that's a couple thousands of them. Not counting support ships and Destroyers.

We can't beat them.

Not to mention that at this pace galactic economy is ruined in one year. The loss of the Citadel would further accelerate this.

Mass Effect 3 says the entire quarian fleet re-equppped themselves with dreadnought weapons with the exact same firepower as any regular dreadnoughts.

How do we know how many ships the Galaxy has? 20 seems Rediculously low. Even the Volus had a dreadnaught.

Number of dreadnoughts possessed by the council races is stated in the codex.  It isn't 20, but it's less than 100.

[ZLurps]

Subject9x wrote...

to be frank, the estimated fleet size for every faction in the galaxy is completely underestimated. The sheer scale of resources that are found practically implies massive space navies. You need these massive navies to patrol and protect the massive borders you have....because you know, you're in space, and as we all know, space is huge.

Yeah, makes you wonder what the Reaper fleet is then, they only been doing this for 37 million years minimum.

[alberta]

Mass Effect 3 says the entire quarian fleet re-equppped themselves with dreadnought weapons with the exact same firepower as any regular dreadnoughts.

[ajm317]

alberta wrote...

Mass Effect 3 says the entire quarian fleet re-equppped themselves with dreadnought weapons with the exact same firepower as any regular dreadnoughts.

No it doesn't.

It says some of the Quarian liveships now have Dreadnought level firepower.  It also says the Turian fleet is still stronger.

[Elite Midget]

Strange that after all these dead Reapers that no one thought of an idea making a virus and sending in small specialized teams inside the monsters and infecting them.

They're still machines in the end.

[Subject9x]

ZLurps wrote...

Subject9x wrote...

to be frank, the estimated fleet size for every faction in the galaxy is completely underestimated. The sheer scale of resources that are found practically implies massive space navies. You need these massive navies to patrol and protect the massive borders you have....because you know, you're in space, and as we all know, space is huge.

Yeah, makes you wonder what the Reaper fleet is then, they only been doing this for 37 million years minimum.

again, writing the Reapers as overpowered. If this was a tabletop faction, everyone would play them. I'm not saying they need to be push overs  but theres a certain point where too much power has been shoved into a character/faction where the player/audience loses interest because they're so ridiculously powerful.

[alberta]

ajm317 wrote...

alberta wrote...

Mass Effect 3 says the entire quarian fleet re-equppped themselves with dreadnought weapons with the exact same firepower as any regular dreadnoughts.

No it doesn't.

It says some of the Quarian liveships now have Dreadnought level firepower.  It also says the Turian fleet is still stronger.

Well if you give me a nuclear bomb to control I'd be more powerful that most nations on planet earth today.

[Positronics]

Subject9x wrote...

to be frank, the estimated fleet size for every faction in the galaxy is completely underestimated. The sheer scale of resources that are found practically implies massive space navies. You need these massive navies to patrol and protect the massive borders you have....because you know, you're in space, and as we all know, space is huge.

They aren't estimated. The numbers are canon, and there are a total of 85 dreadnoughts in the galaxy.

The fleet sizes (most fleets number less than 100 vessels minus littorals) might seem small to you, given the scope of the Milky Way, but each ship takes a -huge- amount of technical knowhow and money to build.

A dreadnought takes several years and an entire shipyard's resources, for instance. The reason why large fleets aren't required is that controling the "borders" of your space is a rediculous notion, given the size of space.

There are bottlenecks called Mass Relays in case you didn't notice, and this is where most forces are concentrated.

[Lord Stark]

The Angry One wrote...

II JazB x wrote...

The reason the Turians and asari got pwned hard was the surprise attack. They weren't expecting Sovereign to bypass all their fleets at the relays. And the Geth Armada was the main combatant in that fight, and they I believe have the most advanced fleet in the galaxy. Look at how a single Geth Dreadnaught cut through the Migrant Fleet and imagine several of them at the Citadel. Sovereign just Zerg rushed it to the Citadel and only joined the fight when he was directly threatened, and he only took out 8 cruisers.

To say nothing of the fact that those Geth dreadnaughts (of which they built more than the Turians have) can be on our side in the final fight.
But that apparently counts for nothing.

No they built almost as much as the Turians, and that Geth Dreadnought was the only one of it's kind, the flagship.  Where as the other Dreadnaughts would probably be standard sized.  Also the Geth Dreadnaught is only %30 larger than Alliance Dreadnoughts, impressive? Yes.  But we have ships like the Destiny Ascension which are %400 larger the size of Alliance Dreadnaughts.
As for the number of Dreadnaughts in the galaxy
There are 85, not counting the likely 30+ from the Geth and the Batarian ones and the Volus one.  
But also keep in mind there are 50,000 Quarian ships rigged with Thanix Cannons.  
Each Geth Fleet has 5-10,000 ships.  Probably hundreds of which are Crusier-class
The Turians, Asari, and Salarians have likely thousands of ships as well.  

Modifié par Councilor Oraka , 26 mars 2012 - 07:10 .

[Subject9x]

I said underestimated, as in, given the writing of the ME universe, the numbers don't add up. As for bottlenecks? that's a generous assumption, look at what the reapers did to those 'bottlenecks,' what happens when a fleet breaks out from the relay? they now have room to maneuver, given the size of space.

[AlexMBrennan]

Positronics wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

OK, assuming we were able to beat the Reapers with fighter-mounted thanix cannons - what would have been the point of ME3? Further, the anthropic principle implies that Shepard is the one to defeat the Reapers, and not an anonymous fleet of fighters equipped with thanix cannons

The thanix is -never- sold as a Reaper killer, it's sold as a Collector ship killer. Two very very different things.

Which is why I asked you to assume that it was. 

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 26 mars 2012 - 07:10 .

[Brownfinger]

shinobi602 wrote...

Well, all you said is true and all, but I believe they mean the entire Reaper fleet as a whole. The examples you cited show Reapers being defeated, but the Reapers that were destroyed were on their own. Sovereign itself took a large number of ships to be defeated.

Same with the Reaper on Rannoch. All the Reapers at once in a giant space battle would be a different ballgame I think.

After reading the first post, I came in to say exactly this. But, it's been fairly well covered.
/thread

Your passion is compelling, but you can't let it blind you to logic. The Reapers, as a fleet, are beyond formidble. They ripped through the Alliance fleets and anything defending Earth. While that suited the purpose of advancing the story, it's not really much of a stretch, given what we've seen.

[Sepharih]

Brownfinger wrote...

shinobi602 wrote...

Well, all you said is true and all, but I believe they mean the entire Reaper fleet as a whole. The examples you cited show Reapers being defeated, but the Reapers that were destroyed were on their own. Sovereign itself took a large number of ships to be defeated.

Same with the Reaper on Rannoch. All the Reapers at once in a giant space battle would be a different ballgame I think.

After reading the first post, I came in to say exactly this. But, it's been fairly well covered.
/thread

Well evidently you didn't read far enough, because you missed this:


"Also, this isn't about "proving" whether or not the fleet could have defeated the reapers conventionally.  The point is thatfrom a storytelling standpoint, the game sends mixed messages."

and this:

"I know that all the examples I have cited can be explained away by lore such as "this was a smaller reaper" or "this one took the combined might of the whole fleet".  But citing such examples misses my entire point about show versus tell.

If you want to tell a story that shows the player that the reapers cannot be defeated conventionally then you should not have them defeat the reapers conventionally at almost every story beat. "

Modifié par Sepharih, 26 mars 2012 - 07:14 .

[ZLurps]

Subject9x wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Subject9x wrote...

to be frank, the estimated fleet size for every faction in the galaxy is completely underestimated. The sheer scale of resources that are found practically implies massive space navies. You need these massive navies to patrol and protect the massive borders you have....because you know, you're in space, and as we all know, space is huge.

Yeah, makes you wonder what the Reaper fleet is then, they only been doing this for 37 million years minimum.

again, writing the Reapers as overpowered. If this was a tabletop faction, everyone would play them. I'm not saying they need to be push overs  but theres a certain point where too much power has been shoved into a character/faction where the player/audience loses interest because they're so ridiculously powerful.

I think ME series was always about finding unconventional ways to gain victory from overwhelming enemy. One part of it is Shepard's mission to gather all galactic races together, even if the best they could do was to buy time for Shepard to enter the beam.

I can see why people liked to see this all ended with space battle, especially now when the endings we got make no sense. I for one, who didn't wanted to see Reapers would be won easily, hoped we had really epic fight and that requires epic enemy.

Hell, if it were up to me, Reapers weren't completely defeated in ME3, instead they would retreat back in the Dark Space, not because they weren't winning, but because they are each a nation and everytime they lose a ship, they lose everything that remains from harvested species. Shepard's story closure would have been mission into Dark Space to investigate Reaper origins.

I'm still happy that they didn't nerfed the Reapers, but endings like they are don't deliver feeling of victory. Space battle sequence feels a bit disconnected from other happenings, and IMO that's why it doesn't work. That said, there are numerour other problems but that would be totally off-topic.

[Subject9x]

Zlurps, I would agree to the Reaper forced retreat scenario, and shepard goes missing or something, point is; yes I think all this comes back to ending and how damning it is D:

[foxlockbox]

poundoffleshaa wrote...

I personally thought the only
logical thing the Crucible could be after finding out the Citadel was
needed was a master control terminal for all of the mass relays. Being
able to control the relays and say lock out an entire sector of space
would give an overwhelming tactical advantage to the allies. If you had
something like that your fleet size could be meaningful (you can win
battles) and the Crucible could also be meaningful. 

Thats genius. They could have left it at that maybe make Shepard die heroacilly to make sure it works, defend the crucible long enough to drive the reapers off the system or to make sure the galactic fleet lures the reapers to another system or something, then they could have left it at that and continue the series where the galaxy is in a guerilla war state with the advantage of controlling mass relays and pick their battles, they'd still have problems with leader indoctornation and reapers ridiclious FTL speeds. Thats golden.

Modifié par foxlockbox, 26 mars 2012 - 07:24 .

[Sepharih]

Arcian wrote...

Reasons why they cannot be beat conventionally:

1) Superior numbers.
2) Superior defense.
3) Superior firepower.
4) Huskification.
5) Indoctrination.

1) Superior numbers is pretty straightforward - if there's 5000 of us and 10000 of them, we're going to lose, even if we kill as many Reapers as they destroy our ships, which doesn't happen anyway because of 2) and 3).

2) Superior defense means it takes longer for us to kill one Reaper than it takes for one Reaper to destroy one of our ships.

3) Superior firepower means it takes them a quarter of the time to kill one of our ships than it does for us to kill one Reaper.

4) Ground forces captured and/or killed by the Reapers are transformed into husks, directly bolstering Reapers forces and extending the fight, made worse by 5).

5) The longer a fight drags on, the more psychological influence the Reapers exert on their enemies. If it takes long enough, allies are going to turn on each other.

This is why the Crucible is necessary.

None of which really answer my primary criticism.....

[Epiph1]

It's not unreasonable to assume they could have been defeated conventionally by the end point of the game because:

a) The organic/synthetic alliance version of what conventional tactics are has been proven to be unconventional to the reapers. That alone is a huge advantage as any military person or history buff will tell you; it's how wars have been fought and won many many times.

The Reapers original and secondary plan have both demonstrably failed by the time of ME3. They're now relying on plan c and d which haven't been going so well either i.e. the entire galaxy is united against them irrespective of what the Reapers have done to so far weaken and disenfranchise individual species. Is this the first time that's happened? Arguably it is as the very fact the Crucible gets anywhere near to completion and is deployed is a first.

The Reapers have spent 37 million years basically stuck in a rut as far as we can tell. There was a great story-telling opportunity about hubris and arrogance and it was missed or was dismissed as not artistic enough.

Edit: On a side note, the real heroes of the story in a sense are the Protheans who get the final laugh. They might have been destroyed but they set up a scenario that enabled the new cycles races to break the pattern.

Modifié par Epiph1, 26 mars 2012 - 07:40 .

[lyleoffmyspace]

Does everyone forget we take out a Reaper with a Cain on Earth?

That's a handheld weapon. And it can take out a Reaper.

They're not so overpowered. Just mount Cain cannons on Fighters and send them flying through Reapers kinetic barriers at slow speeds and fire the Cain. 1 dead Reaper.