139 réponses à ce sujet

[Dudeman315]

This was my biggest problem with the ending--ME1 now makes 0% sense in context of the last 5 minutes of ME3.

Modifié par Dudeman315, 26 mars 2012 - 09:01 .

[The Razman]

Because:

1. "The Citadel is part of me." - If the Child IS the Citadel, why didn’t it simply let the Reapers through when the Protheans disabled the Keeper messages in Mass Effect 1?

This point is dependent on an assumption that the Starchild has the ability to do these things. Indeed, until Sheperd activates the Crucible, which the Starchild describes as “unlocking new possibilities”, there’s no evidence that the Starchild has directly been manipulating anything at all.

That “the Citadel is part of it” does not make the Starchild in control of everything within the Citadel. It would be like saying to you “Your heart is a part of you, so why can’t you just choose your heart rate at will?”

That anybody would consider this a "plothole" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the ending and the nature of the Starchild.

Modifié par The Razman, 26 mars 2012 - 09:02 .

[Il Divo]

AlanC9 wrote...

Mr-Snrub wrote...
You would think the guy who's apparent sole purpose is to "assure organic life by killing it to avoid AI evolution" would be aware that something was wrong, and that Sovereign had to do all that stuff. And more that the Reapers had to do the collector thing, the arrival thing, rachni stuff etc.

He doesn't seem interested in pursuing that purpose anymore. If he was, he wouldn't tell Shepard anything in the endgame -- he'd just let him wander around confused for a few minutes until the Reapers destroy the Crucible.

But keep in mind, the Catalyst has a change of heart once Shepard arrives to meet him. Before that, far as we know, the Crucible wasn't intended as some kind of test for organics. The agenda was always for galactic life to be exterminated.

[Arkitekt]

Noxios wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Because the Keepers were tampered with.

It's basic lore.

So why did Starchild let the prothean do it?

Because somehow he wasn't aware of these events.

Or if Starchild controls the reaper how is he not able to retake control of the keeper. Or the Citadel itself for that matter.

These are technical issues, which are filled with possibilities. Just because you cannot imagine them, doesn't make them impossible. You might describe all this as a "plot hole" (and it is), but it is not (imo) a problematic one.

[Heimdall]

Vaktathi wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Because the Keepers were tampered with.

It's basic lore.

Which explains why an external signal didn't activate it. Why was that necessary in the first place however given that the stargodchildthingy was already there the whole time?

Because it was dormant in order to avoid detection from organic technicians.

[Arkitekt]

The Razman wrote...

Because:

1. "The Citadel is part of me." - If the Child IS the Citadel, why didn’t it simply let the Reapers through when the Protheans disabled the Keeper messages in Mass Effect 1?

This point is dependent on an assumption that the Starchild has the ability to do these things. Indeed, until Sheperd activates the Crucible, which the Starchild describes as “unlocking new possibilities”, there’s no evidence that the Starchild has directly been manipulating anything at all.

That “the Citadel is part of it” does not make the Starchild in control of everything within the Citadel. It would be like saying to you “Your heart is a part of you, so why can’t you just choose your heart rate at will?”

That anybody would consider this a "plothole" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the ending and the nature of the Starchild.

Exactly.

EDIT: Wait, it *is* a plot hole. A plot hole is when a part of the plot is unexplained (and possibly let for our imagination to fill in). It does not mean the plot is inconsistent or contradictory.

Modifié par Arkitekt, 26 mars 2012 - 09:05 .

[Heimdall]

Il Divo wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Mr-Snrub wrote...
You would think the guy who's apparent sole purpose is to "assure organic life by killing it to avoid AI evolution" would be aware that something was wrong, and that Sovereign had to do all that stuff. And more that the Reapers had to do the collector thing, the arrival thing, rachni stuff etc.

He doesn't seem interested in pursuing that purpose anymore. If he was, he wouldn't tell Shepard anything in the endgame -- he'd just let him wander around confused for a few minutes until the Reapers destroy the Crucible.

But keep in mind, the Catalyst has a change of heart once Shepard arrives to meet him. Before that, far as we know, the Crucible wasn't intended as some kind of test for organics. The agenda was always for galactic life to be exterminated.

Preserved, not exterminated.

[Dudeman315]

The Star child also says that he controls the reapers--that is he controls Sovereign.

Modifié par Dudeman315, 26 mars 2012 - 09:06 .

[Il Divo]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Mr-Snrub wrote...
You would think the guy who's apparent sole purpose is to "assure organic life by killing it to avoid AI evolution" would be aware that something was wrong, and that Sovereign had to do all that stuff. And more that the Reapers had to do the collector thing, the arrival thing, rachni stuff etc.

He doesn't seem interested in pursuing that purpose anymore. If he was, he wouldn't tell Shepard anything in the endgame -- he'd just let him wander around confused for a few minutes until the Reapers destroy the Crucible.

But keep in mind, the Catalyst has a change of heart once Shepard arrives to meet him. Before that, far as we know, the Crucible wasn't intended as some kind of test for organics. The agenda was always for galactic life to be exterminated.

Preserved, not exterminated.

In the Reapers' case, they often do both. Regardless, it doesn't alter the key issue. The Catalyst as written didn't intend this to be a test for organics, far as we know. The Crucible was not his plan, or his design.

[BentOrgy]

The Razman wrote...

Because:

1. "The Citadel is part of me." - If the Child IS the Citadel, why didn’t it simply let the Reapers through when the Protheans disabled the Keeper messages in Mass Effect 1?

This point is dependent on an assumption that the Starchild has the ability to do these things. Indeed, until Sheperd activates the Crucible, which the Starchild describes as “unlocking new possibilities”, there’s no evidence that the Starchild has directly been manipulating anything at all.

That “the Citadel is part of it” does not make the Starchild in control of everything within the Citadel. It would be like saying to you “Your heart is a part of you, so why can’t you just choose your heart rate at will?”

That anybody would consider this a "plothole" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the ending and the nature of the Starchild.

In regards to unlocking possibilites, I think its simply that the Catalyst never considered any new possibilities until Shepard arrived; which he/it alludes to anyway. The Catalyst is able to move and manipulate walls and other structures inside the Citadel itself at will, as we easily see as soon as we arrive; so the idea that its in control of the entire station isn't out of the realm of possibility. In fact, considering its role, it would be almost lunacy to think that it wasn't in control of the Citadel's most vital systems.

[Il Divo]

BentOrgy wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Because:

1. "The Citadel is part of me." - If the Child IS the Citadel, why didn’t it simply let the Reapers through when the Protheans disabled the Keeper messages in Mass Effect 1?

This point is dependent on an assumption that the Starchild has the ability to do these things. Indeed, until Sheperd activates the Crucible, which the Starchild describes as “unlocking new possibilities”, there’s no evidence that the Starchild has directly been manipulating anything at all.

That “the Citadel is part of it” does not make the Starchild in control of everything within the Citadel. It would be like saying to you “Your heart is a part of you, so why can’t you just choose your heart rate at will?”

That anybody would consider this a "plothole" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the ending and the nature of the Starchild.

In regards to unlocking possibilites, I think its simply that the Catalyst never considered any new possibilities until Shepard arrived; which he/it alludes to anyway. The Catalyst is able to move and manipulate walls and other structures inside the Citadel itself at will, as we easily see as soon as we arrive; so the idea that its in control of the entire station isn't out of the realm of possibility. In fact, considering its role, it would be almost lunacy to think that it wasn't in control of the Citadel's most vital systems.

Aka, EDI's role in piloting the Normandy.

[SynheKatze]

So you are saying that an entity capable of directing and deploying the largest, and most powerful armada in the galaxy, was not clever enough to arrange a series of countermeasures and failsafes just in case something might not work as intended.

Yeah, it really does make a lot of sense. So much for machine's efficiency.

[Heimdall]

BentOrgy wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Because:

1. "The Citadel is part of me." - If the Child IS the Citadel, why didn’t it simply let the Reapers through when the Protheans disabled the Keeper messages in Mass Effect 1?

This point is dependent on an assumption that the Starchild has the ability to do these things. Indeed, until Sheperd activates the Crucible, which the Starchild describes as “unlocking new possibilities”, there’s no evidence that the Starchild has directly been manipulating anything at all.

That “the Citadel is part of it” does not make the Starchild in control of everything within the Citadel. It would be like saying to you “Your heart is a part of you, so why can’t you just choose your heart rate at will?”

That anybody would consider this a "plothole" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the ending and the nature of the Starchild.

In regards to unlocking possibilites, I think its simply that the Catalyst never considered any new possibilities until Shepard arrived; which he/it alludes to anyway. The Catalyst is able to move and manipulate walls and other structures inside the Citadel itself at will, as we easily see as soon as we arrive; so the idea that its in control of the entire station isn't out of the realm of possibility. In fact, considering its role, it would be almost lunacy to think that it wasn't in control of the Citadel's most vital systems.

Not really, the changes to the Citadel may or may not have been related to the Catalyst.  It outright said it was unable to carry out any of the possibilities it presented to Shepard btw.

[Semajk25]

Great big frothing deus ex machina

[Dagger]

The we ending we got, wasn't the original ending they had planned from the beginning.

[Heimdall]

SynheKatze wrote...

So you are saying that an entity capable of directing and deploying the largest, and most powerful armada in the galaxy, was not clever enough to arrange a series of countermeasures and failsafes just in case something might not work as intended.

Yeah, it really does make a lot of sense. So much for machine's efficiency.

The Reapers constantly underestimate organics, so does their controller, who never expected the crucible or Shepard to get there.

[BentOrgy]

Lord Aesir wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Because:

1. "The Citadel is part of me." - If the Child IS the Citadel, why didn’t it simply let the Reapers through when the Protheans disabled the Keeper messages in Mass Effect 1?

This point is dependent on an assumption that the Starchild has the ability to do these things. Indeed, until Sheperd activates the Crucible, which the Starchild describes as “unlocking new possibilities”, there’s no evidence that the Starchild has directly been manipulating anything at all.

That “the Citadel is part of it” does not make the Starchild in control of everything within the Citadel. It would be like saying to you “Your heart is a part of you, so why can’t you just choose your heart rate at will?”

That anybody would consider this a "plothole" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the ending and the nature of the Starchild.

In regards to unlocking possibilites, I think its simply that the Catalyst never considered any new possibilities until Shepard arrived; which he/it alludes to anyway. The Catalyst is able to move and manipulate walls and other structures inside the Citadel itself at will, as we easily see as soon as we arrive; so the idea that its in control of the entire station isn't out of the realm of possibility. In fact, considering its role, it would be almost lunacy to think that it wasn't in control of the Citadel's most vital systems.

Not really, the changes to the Citadel may or may not have been related to the Catalyst.  It outright said it was unable to carry out any of the possibilities it presented to Shepard btw.

Sorry, but the walls and stairs were moving to give Shepard access to the Catalyst, which also means the Catalyst knew he/she was there, and where he/she was exactly. Its fairly obvious to me the changes were because of the Catalyst. And you're right, it did; but I attribute this to two things; Bioware wanting the player to make the choices, and because two out of the three options actually required Shepard's input. (Synthesis and Control.)

Modifié par BentOrgy, 26 mars 2012 - 09:13 .

[The Razman]

BentOrgy wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Because:

1. "The Citadel is part of me." - If the Child IS the Citadel, why didn’t it simply let the Reapers through when the Protheans disabled the Keeper messages in Mass Effect 1?

This point is dependent on an assumption that the Starchild has the ability to do these things. Indeed, until Sheperd activates the Crucible, which the Starchild describes as “unlocking new possibilities”, there’s no evidence that the Starchild has directly been manipulating anything at all.

That “the Citadel is part of it” does not make the Starchild in control of everything within the Citadel. It would be like saying to you “Your heart is a part of you, so why can’t you just choose your heart rate at will?”

That anybody would consider this a "plothole" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the ending and the nature of the Starchild.

In regards to unlocking possibilites, I think its simply that the Catalyst never considered any new possibilities until Shepard arrived; which he/it alludes to anyway. The Catalyst is able to move and manipulate walls and other structures inside the Citadel itself at will, as we easily see as soon as we arrive; so the idea that its in control of the entire station isn't out of the realm of possibility. In fact, considering its role, it would be almost lunacy to think that it wasn't in control of the Citadel's most vital systems.

There's no evidence that anything other than the platform which raises Sheperd up after the activation of the Crucible (a situation which I'd argue is open to interpretation as to whether it happens in reality anyway) is controlled by the Catalyst.

As for "unlocking new possibilities", the context of that statement makes it quite clear its referring to the new options for stopping the Reapers being made available to it by the added functionality of the Crucible.

[Navasha]

Why didn't the star child open the citadel?

Well, if you dog is digging a hole in the backyard chasing a groundhog, do you get down and help him?

If you take the star child at face value, he was the creator of the reapers. Just because he made them doesn't mean he is on their "side". Or if you believe, like I do that the star child was just the proxy for harbinger in a dream-like indoctrination attempt... then obviously... Harbinger wasn't around in ME1.

[farlander28]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Because the Keepers were tampered with.

It's basic lore.

Which explains why an external signal didn't activate it. Why was that necessary in the first place however given that the stargodchildthingy was already there the whole time?

Because it was dormant in order to avoid detection from organic technicians.

You need to stop perpetuating this "dormant" garbage. Where are you getting that? Either quote the codex or in-game dialogue directly, or you are making s*** up out of whole cloth.

[Il Divo]

Navasha wrote...

Why didn't the star child open the citadel?

Well, if you dog is digging a hole in the backyard chasing a groundhog, do you get down and help him?

If you take the star child at face value, he was the creator of the reapers. Just because he made them doesn't mean he is on their "side". Or if you believe, like I do that the star child was just the proxy for harbinger in a dream-like indoctrination attempt... then obviously... Harbinger wasn't around in ME1.

Except of course he refers to the Reapers as "his" solution. Even if he had not, all implications are that this whole design was orchestrated by him.

[Tirigon]

Navasha wrote...

If you take the star child at face value, he was the creator of the reapers. Just because he made them doesn't mean he is on their "side"

ACTUALLY, it means just that. You are basically saying "just because you use this gun to shoot someone in the head you are not on the side of the gun".

[BentOrgy]

The Razman wrote...

There's no evidence that anything other than the platform which raises Sheperd up after the activation of the Crucible (a situation which I'd argue is open to interpretation as to whether it happens in reality anyway) is controlled by the Catalyst.

As for "unlocking new possibilities", the context of that statement makes it quite clear its referring to the new options for stopping the Reapers being made available to it by the added functionality of the Crucible.

I've already given sound reason why I believe that Catalyst controlled the changes to the Citadel, one being that there was no one else around to do it, and no one else that would have wanted to.

And you can easily argue that it was referring to the Crucible's nature that gave it reason to rethink the Reaper's existence. Essentially: "If this thing is here, if the races of the Galaxy dead and alive created this, and if this organic has come all this way... Maybe I was wrong?" There are a few ways you can look at it. I doubt being hooked up to the Crucible gave the Catalyst an "Upgrade," or something.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 26 mars 2012 - 09:22 .

[farlander28]

The Razman wrote...

There's no evidence that anything other than the platform which raises Sheperd up after the activation of the Crucible (a situation which I'd argue is open to interpretation as to whether it happens in reality anyway) is controlled by the Catalyst.

This is grasping for straws and stretching suspension of disbelief to the breaking point. You are apologizing on behalf of bad writing and bad assumptions. If something that claims "I control the reapers", and that "they are my solution", then it is absolute lunacy to think that this control system would risk failure by not building in control of the citadel arms, relay, and hell every minor system itself into its own direct access.

This is the core of the problem: Not that there is a way to half-a** explain why it wouldn't open the relay in ME1, but that you even half to TRY to explain it. The fundamental design of this thing - again, which claims ownership and creation of the reapers - would never leave out absolute control over the citadel, because it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.

Modifié par farlander28, 26 mars 2012 - 09:25 .

[Heimdall]

BentOrgy wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Because:

1. "The Citadel is part of me." - If the Child IS the Citadel, why didn’t it simply let the Reapers through when the Protheans disabled the Keeper messages in Mass Effect 1?

This point is dependent on an assumption that the Starchild has the ability to do these things. Indeed, until Sheperd activates the Crucible, which the Starchild describes as “unlocking new possibilities”, there’s no evidence that the Starchild has directly been manipulating anything at all.

That “the Citadel is part of it” does not make the Starchild in control of everything within the Citadel. It would be like saying to you “Your heart is a part of you, so why can’t you just choose your heart rate at will?”

That anybody would consider this a "plothole" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the ending and the nature of the Starchild.

In regards to unlocking possibilites, I think its simply that the Catalyst never considered any new possibilities until Shepard arrived; which he/it alludes to anyway. The Catalyst is able to move and manipulate walls and other structures inside the Citadel itself at will, as we easily see as soon as we arrive; so the idea that its in control of the entire station isn't out of the realm of possibility. In fact, considering its role, it would be almost lunacy to think that it wasn't in control of the Citadel's most vital systems.

Not really, the changes to the Citadel may or may not have been related to the Catalyst.  It outright said it was unable to carry out any of the possibilities it presented to Shepard btw.

Sorry, but the walls and stairs were moving to give Shepard access to the Catalyst, which also means the Catalyst knew he/she was there, and where he/she was exactly. Its fairly obvious to me the changes were because of the Catalyst. And you're right, it did; but I attribute this to two things; Bioware wanting the player to make the choices, and because two out of the three options actually required Shepard's input. (Synthesis and Control.)

Perhaps, it isn't impossible, but I honestly think the Citadel was shifting because the Reapers placed it in lockdown and turned it into a haevesting chamber.  I'm not sure how much of it before the glowing elevator was directly the Catalyst.  It's possible that the Catalyst also isn't capable of self termination.