139 réponses à ce sujet

[Fedi.St]

/stop eating popcorn.

Those people defending the plothole OP is mentioning with whatever assumptions, I'm imagining that they are against the indoctrination theory which is full of clear evidence throughout the game?
I mean you people and especially therazman which made that huuge assumption described above are ready to accept it instead of accepting the IT theory ?


/continue eating popcorn

[Heimdall]

farlander28 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Because the Keepers were tampered with.

It's basic lore.

Which explains why an external signal didn't activate it. Why was that necessary in the first place however given that the stargodchildthingy was already there the whole time?

Because it was dormant in order to avoid detection from organic technicians.

You need to stop perpetuating this "dormant" garbage. Where are you getting that? Either quote the codex or in-game dialogue directly, or you are making s*** up out of whole cloth.

It's the functioning solution, it also explains why the crucible was needed to awaken it to new solutions.  It was actaully needed to awaken it.

[Il Divo]

Fedi.St wrote...

/stop eating popcorn.

Those people defending the plothole OP is mentioning with whatever assumptions, I'm imagining that they are against the indoctrination theory which is full of clear evidence throughout the game?
I mean you people and especially therazman which made that huuge assumption described above are ready to accept it instead of accepting the IT theory ?


/continue eating popcorn

I hope you brought enough for everyone.

[The Razman]

BentOrgy wrote...

I've already given sound reason why I believe that Catalyst controlled the changes to the Citadel, one being that there was no one else around to do it, and no one else that would have wanted to.

I'm not sure why the "changes" to the Citadel have to have been controlled by anyone? The only changes you see are the platforms moving in the chasm, and the door which Sheperd walks through. Both of which look pretty automated, to me.

The only thing that the Catalyst did control is the platform raising Sheperd up. And that's open to interpretation as to whether it even happened.

And you can easily argue that it was referring to the Crucible's nature that gave it reason to rethink the Reaper's existence. Essentially: "If this thing is here, if the races of the Galaxy dead and alive created this, and if this organic has come all this way... Maybe I was wrong?" There are a few ways you can look at it. I doubt being hooked up to the Crucible gave the Catalyst an "Upgrade," or something.

Why not? That was the very reason for the creation of the Crucible, and you can see in the ending sequence that it's from the Crucible that the beam which travels across the mass relay network is emanated from. From the context that the line was said in, it's pretty clear that it was referring to the actual physical capabilities of the Crucible.

[BentOrgy]

Why do people assume that the Crucible gave the Catalyst an "Upgrade," in functionality? How would that even work? The Crucible was designed to destroy the Reapers via the Mass Relays, using the Citadel as an axis: I never heard anything about it giving the Catalyst new software to play with.

The Catalyst is presented as a near omniscient AI, the apex of synthetic awareness, I think it merely considered the new possibilities simply because, with Shepard's and the Crucible's arrival, it could no longer deny that its ideas might not be as universal as it thought.

[Fedi.St]

Il Divo wrote...

Fedi.St wrote...

/stop eating popcorn.

Those people defending the plothole OP is mentioning with whatever assumptions, I'm imagining that they are against the indoctrination theory which is full of clear evidence throughout the game?
I mean you people and especially therazman which made that huuge assumption described above are ready to accept it instead of accepting the IT theory ?


/continue eating popcorn

I hope you brought enough for everyone.

there is always more popcorn! Until the ending dlc/patch release which either game is over or we redo the 10 replays of the ME franchise we are hoping for. :wizard:

[The Razman]

farlander28 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

There's no evidence that anything other than the platform which raises Sheperd up after the activation of the Crucible (a situation which I'd argue is open to interpretation as to whether it happens in reality anyway) is controlled by the Catalyst.

This is grasping for straws and stretching suspension of disbelief to the breaking point. You are apologizing on behalf of bad writing and bad assumptions. If something that claims "I control the reapers", and that "they are my solution", then it is absolute lunacy to think that this control system would risk failure by not building in control of the citadel arms, relay, and hell every minor system itself into its own direct access.

No. You've assumed that it has that capability on the grounds of assumption and assumption alone. You've heard the words "I control the Reapers" and jumped to the bizaare conclusion that the Catalyst "must control absolutely every piece of Reaper technology in the galaxy". When there's no evidence that it actually controls any piece of Reaper technology. That you created something doesn't mean you control it ... surely the Geth and the Quarians proved that.

If you're going to try and contribute, please leave out the angry insults. We've got enough of those flying around this forum.

[Navasha]

Il Divo wrote...

Except of course he refers to the Reapers as "his" solution. Even if he had not, all implications are that this whole design was orchestrated by him.

He created the "solution".   Theres no need for him to help.   It hasn't failed to do its job in thousands of cycles, why believe it would fail now?    

We don't even know if he even exists in this galaxy anymore.   He could be holed up in some dark space megacomputer and the crucible is nothing but a communicator/proxy for transmitting his "power" into this galaxy.    Those are the kinds of questions that were left unanswered by his introduction.

[farlander28]

Lord Aesir wrote...

farlander28 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Because the Keepers were tampered with.

It's basic lore.

Which explains why an external signal didn't activate it. Why was that necessary in the first place however given that the stargodchildthingy was already there the whole time?

Because it was dormant in order to avoid detection from organic technicians.

You need to stop perpetuating this "dormant" garbage. Where are you getting that? Either quote the codex or in-game dialogue directly, or you are making s*** up out of whole cloth.

It's the functioning solution, it also explains why the crucible was needed to awaken it to new solutions.  It was actaully needed to awaken it.

This is your idea, and to YOU it is a "functioning solution", but that does not mean that it makes logical sense. Either you present direct in-game evidence to support your declarations, or you make sure to note that these ideas are just that - your ideas.

Besides, why would an AI be dormant at all? Why would it need to be? It's not like it needs to sleep, it's a friggin machine. This is just another assumption with no evidence. Again, the fact that people have to try and make sense of why this AI (which claims creation of, as well as control of, the reapers) would fail to include complete control of the citadel it is housed in is absurd. You are trying to justify bad writing and plot holes, and it's sad.

[Fedi.St]

Razman I'm gonna ask you again:

Are you ready to accept all those assumptions you described which NONE are shown into the game instead of accepting the clues of a possible Indoctrination attempt over Shep?

[Tirigon]

Fedi.St wrote...

/stop eating popcorn.

Those people defending the plothole OP is mentioning with whatever assumptions, I'm imagining that they are against the indoctrination theory which is full of clear evidence throughout the game?
I mean you people and especially therazman which made that huuge assumption described above are ready to accept it instead of accepting the IT theory ?


/continue eating popcorn

Even though I do not agree with Razman's defense of the ending (mainly on the basis that if you need pages of explanation to understand an ending it is sh!t for that reason alone), I have to admit that it makes a lot more sense than the Indoctrination theory.

[The Razman]

BentOrgy wrote...

Why do people assume that the Crucible gave the Catalyst an "Upgrade," in functionality? How would that even work? The Crucible was designed to destroy the Reapers via the Mass Relays, using the Citadel as an axis: I never heard anything about it giving the Catalyst new software to play with.

The Crucible was designed without an iota of knowledge about what its actual function is. This is stated several times by pretty much everyone all throughout the game. Their best guess is that its some kind of weapon ... but how it functions, they don't know.

When it's plugged into the Catalyst, its function is revealed as a way of producing the mass relay beam, using the Citadel's technology and power. The Crucible creates the beam, the Citadel provides the means for it to do so. This much is stated by the Prothean VI.

[Il Divo]

Navasha wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Except of course he refers to the Reapers as "his" solution. Even if he had not, all implications are that this whole design was orchestrated by him.

He created the "solution".   Theres no need for him to help.   It hasn't failed to do its job in thousands of cycles, why believe it would fail now?    

We don't even know if he even exists in this galaxy anymore.   He could be holed up in some dark space megacomputer and the crucible is nothing but a communicator/proxy for transmitting his "power" into this galaxy.    Those are the kinds of questions that were left unanswered by his introduction.

Your statement was the starchild wasn't on their "side". Obviously he is on their side, or that wouldn't have been his solution in the first place. But in the end game, if the starchild is actually concerned about ensuring his solution is successful, Sovereign's role is useless. If the Starchild himself can't do anything, that should be explained, not left to our imagination. It's on the leve of Fallout 3's Fawkes telling us it's the PC's destiny to die in radiation poisoning.

Modifié par Il Divo, 26 mars 2012 - 09:35 .

[BentOrgy]

The Razman wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Why do people assume that the Crucible gave the Catalyst an "Upgrade," in functionality? How would that even work? The Crucible was designed to destroy the Reapers via the Mass Relays, using the Citadel as an axis: I never heard anything about it giving the Catalyst new software to play with.

The Crucible was designed without an iota of knowledge about what its actual function is. This is stated several times by pretty much everyone all throughout the game. Their best guess is that its some kind of weapon ... but how it functions, they don't know.

When it's plugged into the Catalyst, its function is revealed as a way of producing the mass relay beam, using the Citadel's technology and power. The Crucible creates the beam, the Citadel provides the means for it to do so. This much is stated by the Prothean VI.

And this refutes what I asked... How? It has nothing to due with the mental capacity of the Catalyst. We all know (Hell, I knew before the game was released, just from the trailers, and the leaked script.) how the Crucible works, that wasn't up for debate.

[farlander28]

The Razman wrote...

No. You've assumed that it has that capability on the grounds of assumption and assumption alone. You've heard the words "I control the Reapers" and jumped to the bizaare conclusion that the Catalyst "must control absolutely every piece of Reaper technology in the galaxy". When there's no evidence that it actually controls any piece of Reaper technology. That you created something doesn't mean you control it ... surely the Geth and the Quarians proved that.

If you're going to try and contribute, please leave out the angry insults. We've got enough of those flying around this forum.

Problem is, my assumption is at least based on partial evidence - that it claims creation of and control over the reapers - where as your assumption is based on absolutely nothing. What little evidence there is leans in my direction, along with COMMON SENSE in the design of such an AI.

As for insults, cry me a river. You and Aesir are pathetic. You're apologizing for hack writing, and trying so desparetly to come up with half-a**ed ideas to patch over plot holes that you are just making fools of yourselves.

[DangerousPuddy]

You know the entire writing went down the drain when the Reapers were made out to be this godlike race of sentient machines that knew everything and took an entire fleet to barely bring down one to a conglomerate of idiots who could be disposed of by ground missles.

IMO like this issue with the Starchild (and every other plot-hole) - Bioware wrote themselves into a corner. Hence the Deus Ex Machina + plot holes to make their story work.

I wouldn't mind plotholes so much if they stuck to their word on how unbeatable the Reapers really are + the originality of Dark Energy.

[Hartzilla2007]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Its essentially the same reason why sovreign never just shot the normandy out of the sky.

Why would Soverign care enough about what he/it would consider an annoying insect to shot it down rememebr Shepard doesn't enter into threat territory until after Soverign dies and then only as a minor one worth killing but only for the (not)hired help.  before that it was blah blah you are all doomed blah blah we are unstaoppable with various mentioning about whop insignificant organics are.

[Fedi.St]

Tirigon wrote...

Fedi.St wrote...

/stop eating popcorn.

Those people defending the plothole OP is mentioning with whatever assumptions, I'm imagining that they are against the indoctrination theory which is full of clear evidence throughout the game?
I mean you people and especially therazman which made that huuge assumption described above are ready to accept it instead of accepting the IT theory ?


/continue eating popcorn

Even though I do not agree with Razman's defense of the ending (mainly on the basis that if you need pages of explanation to understand an ending it is sh!t for that reason alone), I have to admit that it makes a lot more sense than the Indoctrination theory.

I'm not defending the IT theory here. I 'm neutral and waiting to see what's gonna happen with the sit.
BUT
It's the same argument. You are ready to accept any other assumption which has no real basis on what IS KNOWN through the game and not the IT theory.

I just can;t wrap my head around this. 

[The Razman]

Fedi.St wrote...

Razman I'm gonna ask you again:

Are you ready to accept all those assumptions you described which NONE are shown into the game instead of accepting the clues of a possible Indoctrination attempt over Shep?

What assumptions are you referring to? I wrote A Logical Rebuttal as a rebuttal of assumptions made by Indoctrination Theory (and more specifically the "A Logical Breakdown Of Why The Mass Effect 3 Endings Make No Sense" article) ... every point in it is a response to assertions of plotholes made within that article.

I'd like to think that the Rebuttal article doesn't make assumptions which aren't based on a good logical premise grounded within the game's lore and logical consistency. If you feel otherwise, I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Modifié par The Razman, 26 mars 2012 - 09:37 .

[BentOrgy]

Il Divo wrote...

 If the Starchild himself can't do anything, that should be explained, not left to our imagination.

Exactly.

[digby69]

he didn't have enough space magic

[Icinix]

As much as I hate the StarChild more than any other element in every other game I've ever played.

It could be explained that...
..no you know what..it really can't.

StarChild makes about as much sense as ****** on a submarine.

[The Razman]

farlander28 wrote...

Problem is, my assumption is at least based on partial evidence - that it claims creation of and control over the reapers - where as your assumption is based on absolutely nothing. What little evidence there is leans in my direction, along with COMMON SENSE in the design of such an AI.

I do base my claim on evidence. The evidence that the Catalyst has never at any point shown the ability to directly control anything. Indeed, if it could directly control anything, it would not require Sheperd for the Final Solution. It could just fly the Reapers away by itself.

You're basing your claim on an assumption that "I control the Reapers" means direct and total control over every piece of Reaper technology in the galaxy, where there's never any evidence to support a claim that's what it meant.

As for insults, cry me a river. You and Aesir are pathetic. You're apologizing for hack writing, and trying so desparetly to come up with half-a**ed ideas to patch over plot holes that you are just making fools of yourselves.

I think you've shown your mind isn't very open to a discussion based on logic. Pity.

[drak4806.2]

DangerousPuddy wrote...

You know the entire writing went down the drain when the Reapers were made out to be this godlike race of sentient machines that knew everything and took an entire fleet to barely bring down one to a conglomerate of idiots who could be disposed of by ground missles.

IMO like this issue with the Starchild (and every other plot-hole) - Bioware wrote themselves into a corner. Hence the Deus Ex Machina + plot holes to make their story work.

I wouldn't mind plotholes so much if they stuck to their word on how unbeatable the Reapers really are + the originality of Dark Energy.

I agree we never should have fought the Reapers themselves in ME3 or delt with Harbinger in ME2. Instead we should have delt with indoctrinated agents left behind by Sovereign in both games. The Reapers should have been still sleeping in dark space unaware if what happened during the games.

[Bloodmode]

The Protheans created the Reapers.