139 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

Fedi.St wrote...

BUT
It's the same argument. You are ready to accept any other assumption which has no real basis on what IS KNOWN through the game and not the IT theory.

I just can;t wrap my head around this.

I am not. I believe that, for whatever reason (maybe a celebration with too much alcohol too early....), BioWare just screwed up majorly, and that's why they should man up, admit that the ending was sh!t and release a DLC with a good one.

I just say that among 2 far-fetched theories to explain this mess, IT is the worse.

[Fedi.St]

The Razman wrote...


What assumptions are you referring to? I wrote A Logical Rebuttal as a rebuttal of assumptions made by Indoctrination Theory (and more specifically the "A Logical Breakdown Of Why The Mass Effect 3 Endings Make No Sense" article) ... every point in it is a response to assertions of plotholes made within that article.

I'd like to think that the Rebuttal article doesn't make assumptions which aren't based on a good logical premise grounded within the game's lore and logical consistency. If you feel otherwise, I'd like to hear your reasoning.

As I understand you are saying that although the citadel is part of the kid (actually said in the game) you propose that he cannot control it as we can;t control it our heart. (assumption)

So I'm asking you:
1)what are the actual evidence in the game which you are basing the assumption?

2)How the hell he can't control the citadel while he creates an elevator to take shep in the beam level?

3)Why no instead accept the IT theory which fits all the plothole into an assumption/explanation based in the facts given throughout the game?

I'm completely neutral to the IT. But if we are gonna accept something it better have some notion some structure which is already given from the ME1. Anyway  the questions are there for you to answer them.

[BentOrgy]

Here's another thing that goes in hand with the Keeper's Signal being useless: You would think that a highly evolved AI like the Catalyst, who could orchestrate a plan like the Reapers and their Cycle, wouldn't leave one of the most critical stages of the plan (Opening the Citadel's Relay for the Reapers.) to chance.

There are too many things that could go wrong (As ME1 proved.) by leaving such an important process up to anyone else other than yourself. "If you want something done properly, do it yourself." A lesson you THINK it would have learned.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 26 mars 2012 - 09:46 .

[TheMightyG00sh]

Mr-Snrub wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Catalyst was dormant. The signal to the Keepers was meant to have them begin wake up procedures.

You would think the guy who's apparent sole purpose is to "assure organic life by killing it to avoid AI evolution" would be aware that something was wrong, and that Sovereign had to do all that stuff. And more that the Reapers had to do the collector thing, the arrival thing, rachni stuff etc.

Actually Starchild is nothing but an AI  (possibly VI?) like EDI or Vigil or that thing from the Asari Temple... Things like that can lie inactive for centuries. even milliennias. Vigil only reactivated when it located an presence free from indoctrination (similarly the VI from ME3 reentered hibernation upon detecion of Kai Leng).

Applying this same logic to an AI or VI (I don't believe this is stated in game. Please tell me if it is stated as I'mm curious) like Starchild and it appears that the Keepers were indeed supposed to activate Starchild who would in turn open the Citadel Relay.

When the Keepers were tampered with by the Prothean (or possibly evolved to ignore the signal? Once again I can't remember which) the ignored it. Reapers then went to plan B whichwas of course Saren manually opening the relay. After this failed the Reapers tried a slightly different appraoch in using the Collector's to proces the only raace the game even hints as useful to them. (In both storylines). When this once again failed the reapers had to resort to desperate measures and travelled to the Milky Way from Dark Space taking the Kepler Verge by force and using it'[s relays to tap into Citadel and Alliance Space adn decimate the four major planets whilst controlling the geth and somewhat avoiding the Krogan and Yahg. Do note that they also indoctrinated TIM like they indoctrinated Saren so TIM could maunally activate Starchild... like Saren,

So yeah. I don't think Starchild has any true control of the Citadel and if so I would safely assume that it would stay in hibernation away from the any prying idiots like Cherbot.

[RiouHotaru]

Because the Starchild isn't active. It's made pretty clear that while he "controls" the Reapers, it isn't an active control. It's just a programmed directive. People keep attributing human logical processes to AIs when we all know that's not the case.

That's like asking why the Reapers didn't just wait for Shepard to die of natural causes before invading. It's because they're not programmed to think that way. The catalyst isn't a human being, it's an AI.

[jess05]

Arkitekt wrote...

Because the Keepers were tampered with.

It's basic lore.

Why couldnt Catalyst prevent or counter that?
Why were the Keepers even needed in the first place if Catalyst was there?

Modifié par jess05, 26 mars 2012 - 09:48 .

[BentOrgy]

TheMightyG00sh wrote...

So yeah. I don't think Starchild has any true control of the Citadel and if so I would safely assume that it would stay in hibernation away from the any prying idiots like Cherbot.

Chorban you mean?

And that might have been a possibility, if not for the fact that no VI (In Mass Effect Canon anyway.) would have, or could have, created this plan in the first place.

[Fedi.St]

Tirigon wrote...

Fedi.St wrote...

BUT
It's the same argument. You are ready to accept any other assumption which has no real basis on what IS KNOWN through the game and not the IT theory.

I just can;t wrap my head around this.

I am not. I believe that, for whatever reason (maybe a celebration with too much alcohol too early....), BioWare just screwed up majorly, and that's why they should man up, admit that the ending was sh!t and release a DLC with a good one.

I just say that among 2 far-fetched theories to explain this mess, IT is the worse.

IT (not assumption) is based through the facts of the game. But since doesn't seem that it's what the writers intended can't accept it as sure. But  just assuming a whole of a new universe just to justify those bloody endings is really annoying. 

In anycase . I thing indeed too much alcohol maybe messed up our endings!:wizard:

[digby69]

Actually the whole star child / catalist thing was only thought up during me3's creation. It was certainly not in Drew's original plot idea back in me1 & 2

[DangerousPuddy]

jess05 wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Because the Keepers were tampered with.

It's basic lore.

Why couldnt Catalyst prevent or counter that?
Why were the Keepers even needed in the first place if Catalyst was there?

This.

Don't say a VI / AI needs to sleep.

Modifié par DangerousPuddy, 26 mars 2012 - 09:50 .

[BentOrgy]

digby69 wrote...

Actually the whole star child / catalist thing was only thought up during me3's creation. It was certainly not in Drew's original plot idea back in me1 & 2

That's the whole point I think, of this thread. How Bioware seemingly dreamt up some bizarre endgame sequence for ME3, and ran with it before fact-checking the other two games.

[BentOrgy]

DangerousPuddy wrote...

Don't say a VI / AI needs to sleep.

*Double post of doom*

I'll admit it; I laughed out loud when I read this.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 26 mars 2012 - 09:51 .

[DaJe]

indecisive writing

[Nexis7]

jsut wait for late november dude

[cuzsal]

Grimez7 wrote...

It is not something you can comprehend.

lol

[BentOrgy]

I'm just going to say this, and then leave for now:

I'm not actually opposed to the Catalyst as a function. (I can't stand the fact that they made it appear as that damn child whom I care nothing for, or its bizarre Synthetic versus Organic logic.)

The Catalyst actually makes more logical sense than the Keepers do; an all powerful AI in control of the Citadel's functions to maintain direct control over the Cycle and keep things in running order. Its just the fact that it renders ME1's plot completely useless is the problem I have.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 26 mars 2012 - 09:58 .

[TheMightyG00sh]

BentOrgy wrote...

TheMightyG00sh wrote...

So yeah. I don't think Starchild has any true control of the Citadel and if so I would safely assume that it would stay in hibernation away from the any prying idiots like Cherbot.

Chorban you mean?

And that might have been a possibility, if not for the fact that no VI (In Mass Effect Canon anyway.) would have, or could have, created this plan in the first place.

Yes I did... how the hell did I write Cherbot... I even researched his name. I am just terrible...

Now THAT is a plothole. This is the problem with the new writer. He scrapped the original story arc (involving Dark Energy) that saw a bunch of races fus e themselves together to create a colelctive intelligence  and repeatedly process other races (like the Protheans)  in order to build up the intelligence of the Reapers to firgure out how to stop the Mass Relays from leaking Dark Energy into star system effecting the stars. (Remember Haestrom?) 

The new one akes no sense as an AI or VI managed to manufacture an ENTIRE fleet of synthetic ships despite not having any source of labour? Yeah... that makes sense. So either the reapers created Starchild OR some other race created the reapers AND starchild. Possibly the last ofa synthetic or organic race during a brultal synthetic vs. organic war before he cycles began. (This brutal war COULD provide legs for Starchild's outlook on life.

So yeah Starchild wasn't the creator of the Reapers that's for sure and therefore he told you a massive lie as they aren't it's solution... rather that of whoever manufactured it be it Harbinger or a hyper advanced race that saw the fate Starchild spoke of (a massive synthetic/organic war ending wtih synthetic race viciously and brutally slaughtering EVERY organic race no matter how evolved they were, something which the Reapers stop by killing the advanced races when they are on the precipate of a break through on serious technology like the Quarians making break throughs with the Geth).

So yeah... you just identified the plothole that EVERYONE has been ignoring in favour of the one thing that ISN'T a plothole...

[The Razman]

Fedi.St wrote...

As I understand you are saying that although the citadel is part of the kid (actually said in the game) you propose that he cannot control it as we can;t control it our heart. (assumption)

So I'm asking you:
1)what are the actual evidence in the game which you are basing the assumption?

2)How the hell he can't control the citadel while he creates an elevator to take shep in the beam level?

3)Why no instead accept the IT theory which fits all the plothole into an assumption/explanation based in the facts given throughout the game?

I'm completely neutral to the IT. But if we are gonna accept something it better have some notion some structure which is already given from the ME1. Anyway  the questions are there for you to answer them.

1) Isn't the burden of proof on the other side, in that one? You're asking me to provide evidence for him not having the ability to do something. My answer is ... he's never displayed the ability to do such before, at any point. It would be like someone asking "Give me your evidence that the Krogan cannot fly" ... I have no evidence as such as thing is never explicitly said, other than past precedent: the Krogan have never flown before?

2) Somewhere (having trouble finding exactly where right now) in this document I outline this point a bit more in-depth ... but in short, I'd make the argument that the meeting with the Catalyst is mostly symbolic. I'd argue that it may not have even happened in reality. Other than that, there's no reason to assume that a single platform being controlled by the Starchild means the Starchild is in direct control of the Citadel, is there? That's a wide assumption.

3) The Indoctrination Theory makes assumptions based on logically inconsistent ideas. There's never been any report at any stage that Indoctrination can produce full on hallucination, despite us having loads of information on the process by the time Mass Effect 3 comes around and loads of first-hand studies done on indoctrinated individuals. There's also just no explanation of motive in Indoctrination Theory; if Harbinger has hit Sheperd with a beam and stopped him in his tracks, what would be the purpose of inducing an extremely complex and long hallucination where he fights the Illusive Man and has to make a choice about what to do with the galaxy's fate? They've won already. There's no motive for it.

It also results in the entire galaxy being destroyed no matter what you do, seeing as how Sheperd never reaches the beam due to being hit by Harbinger. He never reaches the Citadel, never sets of the Crucible, and without that there's no hope of beating the Reapers. Ending = we're all dead, no matter what. I just don't think that's a very plausible assumption to think they'd write in, after three games of trying to stop the Reapers.

[SynheKatze]

Lord Aesir wrote...

SynheKatze wrote...

So you are saying that an entity capable of directing and deploying the largest, and most powerful armada in the galaxy, was not clever enough to arrange a series of countermeasures and failsafes just in case something might not work as intended.

Yeah, it really does make a lot of sense. So much for machine's efficiency.

The Reapers constantly underestimate organics, so does their controller, who never expected the crucible or Shepard to get there.

One thing is being arrogant, conceited and full of yourself and the other is crappy engineering. Every advanced tech device we design has failsafes, might we notice them or not. If we should assume that the doombringers of the galaxy cannot even think that far ahead (because not every little mistake in the process has to be brought about by organics), I don't even think they could have deployed such genius and devious plans to begin with.

[VerdantSF]

Star Child is quite possibly my least favorite character in any game, ever.

[DangerousPuddy]

And why didn't the Reapers just attack the Crucible, despite the entire fleet on them aren't we forgetting it took an entire fleet to bring down 1 reaper in ME1? Or wait, Reapers became mega-stupid and mega-weak in the last installment.

OP is just showing how ludacris this whole thing is.

Crucible and all that crap was just a Deus Ex Machina, because great writing turned into poor "backed into a corner" writing.

Modifié par DangerousPuddy, 26 mars 2012 - 10:09 .

[Zalbik]

Because the Bioware writters were not in the SPACE MAGIC mode

[EHondaMashButton]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Because the Starchild isn't active. It's made pretty clear that while he "controls" the Reapers, it isn't an active control. It's just a programmed directive. People keep attributing human logical processes to AIs when we all know that's not the case.

That's like asking why the Reapers didn't just wait for Shepard to die of natural causes before invading. It's because they're not programmed to think that way. The catalyst isn't a human being, it's an AI.

But the reapers aren't fully machines and arent AIs at all. They're organic minds uploaded into machine bodies.  Legion tells us this in ME2.

[Ruined Requiem]

Because the Space Child wasn't concieved until ME3, in fact, the entire story of ME3 is about the conception and birth of the Space Child.

[Abirn]

Robhuzz wrote...

Yeah. BioWare only thought about that AFTER they wrote the ending and figured it was good enough.

It's called a plot hole. One in which 3 sentences of dialogue (20 seconds perhaps) make a 40 hour game obsolete.

Because ME1 didn't have shoddy writing or space magic. 

This as well

It doesn't just make the 40 hour game obsolete, it makes all 3 40 hour games in the trilogy obsolete.