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The New Yorker Weighs In On Mass Effect 3, And Frankly Paints Both BioWare and Gamers In A Bad Light


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#226
Aurica

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Phategod1 wrote...

I agree 100% with the article and it is what I've been saying all along. This is also what will happen to all artistic credibility Bioware had and they will be raked over the coals for years to come by the media, and shunned by fellow developers if they cave.


Then BW shouldn't have came out with this contrived ending to begin with!  Its not really hard to see why the fans are so upset with the ending.  It is just THAT OBVIOUS. 

Anyway, art itself is subjective.  I may like certain art pieces because it speaks to me.  However the same piece of art may not appeal to another person.  Furthermore there are some who does not see this as an art, they see this as just a product.

So yea, BW can retain their artistic intergrity by keeping the ending.  But that means they need to be prepared to live with the consequences of angering a portion of their fan base.  If that means losing loyal customers and future sales for DLC may suffer for it.  Then so be it. 

Modifié par Aurica, 27 mars 2012 - 11:07 .


#227
Guest_L00p_*

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Arkitekt wrote...

You're a mean bastard.


And a pervert and alcoholic to boot, I'm sure.

#228
Arkitekt

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L00p wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

You're a mean bastard.


And a pervert and alcoholic to boot, I'm sure.


Not my words!

#229
orangesonic

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New Yorker would believe when a psychopath kills someone and say: ``The game made me do it``

So... no big deal

#230
Tirigon

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L00p wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

You're a mean bastard.


And a pervert and alcoholic to boot, I'm sure.


Well. You are on a game forum. So you are probably a gamer. Which kind of means you are perverted and addicted, yes.

But aren't we all?

#231
Guest_L00p_*

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Arkitekt wrote...

L00p wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

You're a mean bastard.


And a pervert and alcoholic to boot, I'm sure.


Not my words!


Not at all. I'm just agreeing with you.
I'm not offended - I'm jokingly accepting your statement and adding to itB)

#232
submarinex1

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basicly says what most senisble people know, which rules out most of the forum heros who dont even own the game on here. just because you dont like something does not mean its right to carry on like small child who cant have sweets. if anything they should make new ending and charage 1200 for it since for one i would rather have new story dlc than them waste time on changing an ending their writers chose.

#233
ShinsFortress

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I don't read that publication anyway. I'm certainly not going to start now. Business model will work itself out.....

#234
GoddessLunatic

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Phategod1 wrote...

Hypothetically speaking lets just say Bioware agrees to change the ending, and lets just say its

A.free and

B. the ending you always wanted.

Now lets just say hypothetically It actually ruins all future story based games in the future all the bioshocks, and Assassins creeds all ruined. Will it have been worth it?



Why would it, though? I mean, don't get me wrong, I love Bioshock and Assassin's creed, but they don't compare to Mass Effect. When I buy an Assassin's Creed, I know that in the best case an intricate story awaits me, but it's one I don't participate in directly. It's like watching a movie. I might not agree with some of the things that happen, but I don't expect to have any choice in the matter and that's fine because I knew about that beforehand. 

With Mass Effect, it's a completetly different story. I feel, as I was intended by BIoware to feel, like what I'm doing in the game is in my hands to a certain degree. I feel like I'm running the show and like my personality or the one I'm adopting for a playthrough shines through. To have that taken away in the last minutes of the game, in a flurry of plotholes no less, feels like a slap in the face. 

So if I do get the ending I always wanted, the worst thing that will happen is that other franchises are more careful about plotholes and pay attention to consisteny in characterization and in theme and scope of the game. Which really is the opposite of ruining anything. 

#235
GoddessLunatic

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nedpepper wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

People, people, let's not forget Heavy Rain. If video games are an art form, surely that is our pinnacle.


And would you dare ask them change it because you didn't like how a certain part played out?  I've thought about Heavy Rain a lot lately during this whole debate.  People accepted the game for the artistic achievement it was, even though many found it bleak and depressing.  There were no cupcake petitions to change the ending of that game.


But that's because Heavy Rain was consistent and well-written up to the last second. The ending didn't feel rushed or inconsistent with the rest of the game and it certainly didn't include a deus ex machina. Also, Heavy Rain made your decisions and actions matter and they resulted directly in the outcome you got. The problem with Mass Effect's ending is not that it is bleak, but that it disregards all of the above and puts a sprinkle of plotholes over everything. 

#236
die-yng

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submarinex1 wrote...

basicly says what most senisble people know, which rules out most of the forum heros who dont even own the game on here. just because you dont like something does not mean its right to carry on like small child who cant have sweets. if anything they should make new ending and charage 1200 for it since for one i would rather have new story dlc than them waste time on changing an ending their writers chose.


But eating anything you get served, no matter how utterly unsatisfying it is, that really is so much better.
And if you buy something advertised as a silk shirt and it turns out to be a cheap, synthetic replacement fabric, then you probably wouldn't complain as well and just wear it, wouldn't you?

You know, the people who are into the ending, are usually just stating that we don't get it.
Perhaps it is the other way are around and those people are not able "to get" how flawed and failed that ending is.

As for that ridiculous article...

I don't know the "New Yorker" very well, but I would have thought they have higher journalistic standards.

#237
Il Divo

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nedpepper wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

People, people, let's not forget Heavy Rain. If video games are an art form, surely that is our pinnacle.


And would you dare ask them change it because you didn't like how a certain part played out?  I've thought about Heavy Rain a lot lately during this whole debate.  People accepted the game for the artistic achievement it was, even though many found it bleak and depressing.  There were no cupcake petitions to change the ending of that game.


That would depend. There are a few things to consider.

First being, Heavy Rain's endings were not all dark and depressing, but were heavily dependent on your involvement throughout the rest of the story. It was possible to choose a "good" ending. And endings, unlike ME3's, were all different, both in actual cutscene content and in future implications.

Second issue is that you confuse the style of the ending for coherence. When Red Dead Redemption came out, the ending was extremely depressing, yet made sense within the context of the rest of the narrative. Mass Effect 3's does not. I don't need a happy ending, but I do need a coherent one. If Heavy Rain ended as badly as Mass Effect 3, I certainly would be requesting a change in the ending. I won't accept it any more than I would accept Tolkien dropping a meteor on the Lord of the Rings cast in the last five minutes. That to me is not artistic integrity.

Modifié par Il Divo, 27 mars 2012 - 12:00 .


#238
die-yng

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GoddessLunatic wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

People, people, let's not forget Heavy Rain. If video games are an art form, surely that is our pinnacle.


And would you dare ask them change it because you didn't like how a certain part played out?  I've thought about Heavy Rain a lot lately during this whole debate.  People accepted the game for the artistic achievement it was, even though many found it bleak and depressing.  There were no cupcake petitions to change the ending of that game.


But that's because Heavy Rain was consistent and well-written up to the last second. The ending didn't feel rushed or inconsistent with the rest of the game and it certainly didn't include a deus ex machina. Also, Heavy Rain made your decisions and actions matter and they resulted directly in the outcome you got. The problem with Mass Effect's ending is not that it is bleak, but that it disregards all of the above and puts a sprinkle of plotholes over everything. 


And it's not like you couldn't get endings with a relatively positive outcome in "Heavy Rain." Plus your actions determined the endings, they had great variability.

What if we had 2 prequels, were the endings range from totally failing to catch the murderer and all protagonists dying, to cathcing the murderer and everybody living happily ever after and then suddenly in the last game, you can only choose how much you fail and if at least one of the characters clings to a fragile thread of life in the end?

The ending is inconsistent with the message, the gameplay and the story of Mass Effect and it really is no wonder
that only such a small percentage of the people who played through the game can't see that.

Modifié par die-yng, 27 mars 2012 - 12:07 .


#239
OriginalTibs

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The problem with the objection that we are infringing on artistic license is that it looks so very much like what we are instead doing is objecting to the business infringing on the writers' artistic license. The ending we have is so anomalous, compared to the polished and intricate plot-weaving mastery of the rest of the series that it was more likely chopped off with an accountant's meataxe just after what had been a marvelously literate puzzle.
I think it was not an artistic choice of endings we are objecting to, but a myopic business decision handed down from someone who hasn't a clue about the artistry that was compromised.

#240
die-yng

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OriginalTibs wrote...

The problem with the objection that we are infringing on artistic license is that it looks so very much like what we are instead doing is objecting to the business infringing on the writers' artistic license. The ending we have is so anomalous, compared to the polished and intricate plot-weaving mastery of the rest of the series that it was more likely chopped off with an accountant's meataxe just after what had been a marvelously literate puzzle.
I think it was not an artistic choice of endings we are objecting to, but a myopic business decision handed down from someone who hasn't a clue about the artistry that was compromised.


That is something that has me wondering for some time now, that almost nobody of the journalists even dares to tink that pressure from EA forced BW to shoehorn this ending on us.

#241
Il Divo

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nedpepper wrote...

Now you want them to change it because it left you feeling a complex emotion you don't like.  That's the disconnect. 

And another thing.  Everyone says the endings are "bad".  Well, if it's what and Mac and Casey envisioned, and they're happy with it, who are you to demand them to change it?  That's the crux of this agrument.  Why is this medium the only  medium where fans can dictate the vision of the story?  



The only thing I was struck by upon reaching the ending was the level of mediocrity it managed to achieve. Whatever a writer wants his audience to feel at the completion of the experience, I doubt he wants it to be "wow, this was dumb".

To answer the question, who I am is the guy paying $60 a game for an experience which ended quite terribly. In short, I am the consumer, whom without ME3 would never have seen the light of day. Here, Mac's and Casey's happiness came at the expense of its audience. Bioware doesn't have to listen to me, especially as a single individual, but "artistic integrity" has its prices in the free market. Try telling your college professor that you refuse to make any changes to your work because "it's art". It won't stop him from failing you. Likewise here, this comes down to whether a significant number of fans can make their voices heard to cause Bioware to rethink their decision.

Modifié par Il Divo, 27 mars 2012 - 12:11 .


#242
Tonymac

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This article can kiss my butt.

Ok, so I am passionate about my game. I want a better ending, and I am willing to pay for it. Guess what? I'm a regular person who loves the game like everyone else! We aren't special, or "needy without our Mountain Dew game fuel" (I prefer Monster, personally). We are just people who follow the series closely. We stood by Bioware, went to the shows - some even do cosplay. Hey man - people get INTO the game. Thats what fans do - and we drive a lot of the industry YOU think you run. We ARE that industry. I think we need to make that perfectly clear. I pay your bills. Period.

My pal at work likes the ending - accused me of 'selling out' and trying to get the ending changed to fluffy bunnies and ponies and a few other not so macho things. To him the ending was fine. To me - well, it hurt. How can I be one with my character when the situation goes that far south?

All I can say is, I understand that the book needs to be closed. It can be done in a decent way that leaves everyone happy - and if a writer has even the slightest bit of talent then they can continue the series later on. Who says that ALL of the Reapers were pulled in from Dark Space? Did they have a reserve fleet? Surely uber intelligent evil machines have back up plans! Who says they are limited to this Galaxy? There are so many possibilities that it staggers the mind if you wanted to keep the series going, but merely a short time after the main plotline is closed.

My point is - things will not be all 'texas ranger' with every episode the same if game writers actually listened to the fans. To be honest with you, most of us are not 14 yr olds with no jobs. We are scientists, engineers - working professionals as well. We have great ideas - and we make the gaming world go around.

#243
die-yng

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Il Divo wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Now you want them to change it because it left you feeling a complex emotion you don't like.  That's the disconnect. 

And another thing.  Everyone says the endings are "bad".  Well, if it's what and Mac and Casey envisioned, and they're happy with it, who are you to demand them to change it?  That's the crux of this agrument.  Why is this medium the only  medium where fans can dictate the vision of the story?  



The only thing I was struck by upon reaching the ending was the level of mediocrity it managed to achieve. Whatever a writer wants his audience to feel at the completion of the experience, I doubt he wants it to be "wow, this was dumb".

To answer the question, who I am is the guy paying $60 a game for an experience which ended quite terribly. In short, I am the consumer, whom without ME3 would never have seen the light of day. Here, Mac's and Casey's happiness came at the expense of its audience. Bioware doesn't have to listen to me, especially as a single individual, but "artistic integrity" has its prices in the free market. Try telling your college professor that you refuse to make any changes to your work because "it's art". It won't stop him from failing you. Likewise here, this comes down to whether a significant number of fans can make their voices heard to cause Bioware to rethink their decision.


Your point is valid, here are some points to further answer Nedpepper.

Since this whole discussion started, there have been examples detailed, for almost every form of media and entertainment in existence.
Whole seasons of tv series have been retconned afterwards, comicbook heroes biographies change all the time to better fit the taste of todays readers.
Director's cuts for movies are almost standard by now, one example where the effort and demand of fans lead to it, were the original versions of the first three Star Wars movies being made available on DVD or the recut of Highlander 2, which lead the movie a long way back to the original Highlander story and away from that stupid they are all aliens bs.

There have been extended editions and gold editions to videogames, that changed the endings, we even have one or two examples for patches or DLC changing it.

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle changed the fate of his character Sherlock Holmes, because fans were demanding more stories with Holmes that weren't set in the past.

Author's have changed the endings for their books, when publishers demanded it, or when they made a movie script out of it.

A rather famous example is the crime novella "The Pledge" by well known swiss author Friedrich Dürrenmatt (well, he is well known in most of Europe), when the story was originally turned into a german movie, the ending was deemed to dark for the audiences adn so Dürrenmatt rewrote it.
The Sean Penn directed 2001 movie version retained the original bad ending, where the detective (played by Jack Nicholson) ends up as a broken man who has lost everything.
In the previous movie, he instead catches the killer and gains a family in the process.
I state again, that both versions were written by the original author, a highly lauded author of both plays and novels.

Why should it be okay, if directors, producers, publishers or art patrons demand a change in a story's ending, but it's not okay for us fans, who are quasi the patrons of the piece of art Mass Effect,?

#244
Il Divo

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die-yng wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Now you want them to change it because it left you feeling a complex emotion you don't like.  That's the disconnect. 

And another thing.  Everyone says the endings are "bad".  Well, if it's what and Mac and Casey envisioned, and they're happy with it, who are you to demand them to change it?  That's the crux of this agrument.  Why is this medium the only  medium where fans can dictate the vision of the story?  



The only thing I was struck by upon reaching the ending was the level of mediocrity it managed to achieve. Whatever a writer wants his audience to feel at the completion of the experience, I doubt he wants it to be "wow, this was dumb".

To answer the question, who I am is the guy paying $60 a game for an experience which ended quite terribly. In short, I am the consumer, whom without ME3 would never have seen the light of day. Here, Mac's and Casey's happiness came at the expense of its audience. Bioware doesn't have to listen to me, especially as a single individual, but "artistic integrity" has its prices in the free market. Try telling your college professor that you refuse to make any changes to your work because "it's art". It won't stop him from failing you. Likewise here, this comes down to whether a significant number of fans can make their voices heard to cause Bioware to rethink their decision.


Your point is valid, here are some points to further answer Nedpepper.

Since this whole discussion started, there have been examples detailed, for almost every form of media and entertainment in existence.
Whole seasons of tv series have been retconned afterwards, comicbook heroes biographies change all the time to better fit the taste of todays readers.
Director's cuts for movies are almost standard by now, one example where the effort and demand of fans lead to it, were the original versions of the first three Star Wars movies being made available on DVD or the recut of Highlander 2, which lead the movie a long way back to the original Highlander story and away from that stupid they are all aliens bs.

There have been extended editions and gold editions to videogames, that changed the endings, we even have one or two examples for patches or DLC changing it.

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle changed the fate of his character Sherlock Holmes, because fans were demanding more stories with Holmes that weren't set in the past.

Author's have changed the endings for their books, when publishers demanded it, or when they made a movie script out of it.

A rather famous example is the crime novella "The Pledge" by well known swiss author Friedrich Dürrenmatt (well, he is well known in most of Europe), when the story was originally turned into a german movie, the ending was deemed to dark for the audiences adn so Dürrenmatt rewrote it.
The Sean Penn directed 2001 movie version retained the original bad ending, where the detective (played by Jack Nicholson) ends up as a broken man who has lost everything.
In the previous movie, he instead catches the killer and gains a family in the process.
I state again, that both versions were written by the original author, a highly lauded author of both plays and novels.

Why should it be okay, if directors, producers, publishers or art patrons demand a change in a story's ending, but it's not okay for us fans, who are quasi the patrons of the piece of art Mass Effect,?


Agreed, especially with the point regarding publishers. Imagine if J.K. Rowling had wanted to end her seven part series with the main character dying and the bad guys winning: would publishers stand for that? I'm not so certain, given the demographic.

#245
Emeraldfern

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Pfft artistic integrety...what a load of bull. I'm an artist myself and the big questions any artist asks Him/herself whenever they work is Why am I making this, and for Whom
It may be an subconcious question but is still there whenever you create something. Wether it's a painting sculpture, film or videogames.

A metaphor on those questions:

"I'm making a painting because it's cool, and it will have a green palette because hey, I love that colour. And then I'll display it at home."

In this case the artist has more or less made the piece for him/herself rather than an audience.

But in the case of Mass Effect...
From the beginning of Mass Effect we were told it was going to be a triology that built around your choices as Commander Shepard.

Then we were told that we, the fans, are valuable feedback for the devs and that is because of the fans they make their games.

And from that perspective pulling the "artistic integrety" card is a load of bull.
If you made a game primarily for the fans then why not listen to what they are saying?

After all, the only reason we are complaining is because we came to love the franchise and many of us feel that this is not a worthy ending to a series of games spanning 5 years.

(I know that there are those who feel the ending was ok, and that's fine by me everyone has a right to their opinion)

Modifié par Emeraldfern, 27 mars 2012 - 01:00 .


#246
CRISIS1717

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No artistic integrity will be lost because blockbuster videogames don't have any. Where was this reporter when videogames started cutting core content to sell?

#247
BurnOutBrighter

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Regarding the big issue around demanding a creative team change their art. Do we have the right to make demands? I think we do, just as the creator has the right to reject our demands. The creator will probably say no most of the time, but what if the fans can make the creator realise a flaw or error in their vision, making the creator agree to change their work, not to benefit the audience's satisfaction, but to benefit the work's artistic integrity? That's what it's about for me. It's not that the fans deserve better (even though I believe they do). It's that Mass Effect as a work of art deserves better.

And I think that over time and with the upcoming DLC, we'll start to see more and more that BioWare staff themselves thought Mass Effect deserved better.

Modifié par BurnOutBrighter, 27 mars 2012 - 01:04 .


#248
jds1bio

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BurnOutBrighter wrote...

Regarding the big issue around demanding a creative team change their art. Do we have the right to make demands? I think we do, just as the creator has the right to reject our demands. The creator will probably say no most of the time, but what if the fans can make the creator realise a flaw or error in their vision, making the creator agree to change their work, not to benefit the audience's satisfaction, but to benefit the work's artistic integrity? That's what it's about for me. It's not that the fans deserve better (even though I believe they do). It's that Mass Effect as a work of art deserves better.

And I think that over time and with the upcoming DLC, we'll start to see more and more that BioWare staff themselves thought Mass Effect deserved better.


It's not so much the right to make demands, as it is the possibility that a large part of a game's interactivity can be the interaction between player and developer.  Imagine an art form where collaboration runs parallel to the traditional mechanics of vision, viewpoint, message, materials, and craftsmanship.  What is so wrong with this possibility?

#249
AshenSugar

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I dunno about you guys, but the writer's assumption that I am a fickle, uncultured, and unwashed philistine, who's only criteria for a good game revolves around big guns and big boobies is...

.....completely accurate. The wildly successful, critically acclaimed 'Duke Nukem Forever' proves my case.

#250
admcmei

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OH MY GOD
http://www.huffingto..._n_1382265.html
I guess tv comedy fans are entitled whiners, too, uh? How DARE they wuestion the artistic integrity of the writers!
So yeah, stop saying we gamers are the only bunch, petions about tv shows happen a lot more often.

(PS: btw they're totally right, I demand Steve Holt back :D )