155 réponses à ce sujet

[WolfyZA]

Agree with you... If they did things like Vigil said they would Sheppard would've been dead in days or weeks after the invasion. But as fate would have it Sheppard and friends just happen to jump onto the Normandy fly pass the Reapers in the beginning without any of the Reapers even attempting to shoot down the ship. God the plot holes are so visible it makes me wanna punch somebody in the face!!!

Modifié par WolfyZA, 22 janvier 2013 - 01:14 .

[Sebby]

WolfyZA wrote...

Agree with you... If they did things like Vigil said they would Sheppard would've been dead in days or weeks after the invasion. But as fate would have it Sheppard and friends just happen to jump onto the Normandy fly pass the Reapers in the beginning without any of the Reapers even attempting to shoot down the ship. God the plot holes are so visible it makes me wanna punch somebody in the face!!!

Yeah, the biggest problem is not how they botched the ending but how they botched the Reaper invasion.

A more lore consistent intro would have been starting off on the Citadel and having to to sabotage the master control unit and evacuating VIPs and valuable assets off of it .

[simonrana]

Okay just to settle this controlling the relays debate once and for all here is the exact lines from ME1:

Joker: "We caught that distress signal, Commander. I’m sitting here in the Andura sector with the entire Arcturus fleet. We can save the Ascension. Just unlock the relays around the Citadel and we’ll send the cavalry in."

Shepard: "Opening the relays now Joker."

And just to remove all doubt, here is what is still says in the mass effect wiki, in a section that has been updated for ME3:

"Commander Shepard also discovers that the Citadel is itself an enormous, inactive mass relay leading to dark space, as well as the control center for all the relays, enabling the Reapers to sever travel between clusters".

So it is established cannon that the Citadel can be used to shut off the relays.

Now one may argue that the Prothean scientists stopped the Reapers from being able to use this functionality but that's pretty hard to justify given that:

1 ) ME3 doesn't make any attempt to justify or explain why the Reapers don't try and take control of the Citadel (meaning there's only speculation)

2 ) In ME1 Saren is able to give Sovereign control of the Citadel through the master controls AND the Reapers built the Citadel in the first place, so it seems pretty unlikely that the Reapers are 100% incapable of taking control of the Citadel no matter what.

3 ) Introducing the Catalyst as the Master of all Reapers and having him located on/in the Citadel and having the Reapers effortlessly seize and move (note the lack of any explanation of how that pulled THAT off!) the Citadel to Earth makes the idea of them not being able to take control of the Citadel even more farfetched.

So at the worst it is completely asenine writing and a plot hole, at best it is just a plot hole.

I also don't get why so many people are handwaving it because otherwise Shepard would just be stuck in one system and the game would suck. There's an alternative - actually coming up with a plot that accounts for this issue.

Example: Reapers head for the Citadel. Citadel closes its arms in defence. As it has been described since ME1 as more or less "indestructable" in this state the Reapers can't take control of it, hence they can't shut off the relays. They therefore start to attack the major races in force as their plan B - because they have no choice, not because they suddenly lost their minds!

There that took all of two minutes, and I'm sure something better could be thought up with a little more effort...

[Auld Wulf]

Tied into my other theories? I'd say it's because the catalyst had limited control over them. I'm getting tired of typing that out, so I won't do it again, but the idea here is that the catalyst is sapient to a degree but the reapers as a whole are locked into the first choice the catalyst made due to bad programming via the leviathans. The catalyst wanted the reapers to get hacked by the crucible, so it kept surreptitiously disrupting their plans and leaving windows of opportunity open.

[Applepie_Svk]

coz they wanted to screw with everyone, aside from fact that this is exactly opposite of what they were always doing... not logical explanation here...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 22 janvier 2013 - 01:58 .

[Jassu1979]

The Relay Network remained open because the writers forgot all about that, and/or did not know how to deal with such a premise.

Just look at what they did to the Citadel-story from ME1: they forgot about the sabotaged keepers, they ignored that it was a giant mass relay designed as the ultimate trap - and instead they told us that the station housed the collective intelligence of all Reapers, rendering Sovereign's whole plot completely superfluous.

[GimmeDaGun]

Seboist wrote...

WolfyZA wrote...

Agree with you... If they did things like Vigil said they would Sheppard would've been dead in days or weeks after the invasion. But as fate would have it Sheppard and friends just happen to jump onto the Normandy fly pass the Reapers in the beginning without any of the Reapers even attempting to shoot down the ship. God the plot holes are so visible it makes me wanna punch somebody in the face!!!

Yeah, the biggest problem is not how they botched the ending but how they botched the Reaper invasion.

A more lore consistent intro would have been starting off on the Citadel and having to to sabotage the master control unit and evacuating VIPs and valuable assets off of it .

Yes, and how would you sabotage it? You don't even know how it works! Plus there're the reapers who may know their own station a bit better than you. So even if you manage to "sabotage" it or close it (come on, they can open it agian without a problem), they would regain controll again in no time (remember? Souverign was attempting to do that in ME1 - it even managed to shut down the relays again, only by the prothean override you managed to delay it a little bit) and they would shut down the relays again. So you would be stuck in some system and die (most probably without even seeing a single reaper)... the end.

No, face it, you can't write something passable here. The reapers have no reason to not attack the Citadel and shut the relay network down if they want it to. So you either assume that they leave it alone intentionally for their own reasons (that's what I think - I just wrote one possible explanation which could be passable) or face the awful truth: the holy and untouchable lead writer in ME1 f.uck.ed it all up for the sequels... yep, yep. Cause there's no way the reapers couldn't retake and handle their own station (as they do in the end of the game eventually) if they wanted to. 

Point is there's no possibility for "lore consistency" here. ME in this regard is broken from the very beginning... or you try to fill in the blanks wiht explanations which might work... you know: speculation, since how would you figure out why the reapers do things the way they do? Mr. reaper would walk up to you and tell you why they don't go with their original plans described by some prothean AI from an isolated world? Naaaah...

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 22 janvier 2013 - 02:16 .

[simonrana]

Jassu1979 wrote...

The Relay Network remained open because the writers forgot all about that, and/or did not know how to deal with such a premise.

Just look at what they did to the Citadel-story from ME1: they forgot about the sabotaged keepers, they ignored that it was a giant mass relay designed as the ultimate trap - and instead they told us that the station housed the collective intelligence of all Reapers, rendering Sovereign's whole plot completely superfluous.

Damn  you put it so much better than I did, and in much fewer words!

[elitecom]

GimmeDaGun wrote... face the awful truth: the holy and untouchable lead writer in ME1 f.uck.ed it all up for the sequels... yep, yep. Cause there's no way the reapers couldn't retake and handle their own station (as they do in the end of the game eventually) if they wanted to. 

Wait so you're proposing to blame the ME1 writers for the ME2 & ME3 writers failure to adapt and uphold the plot of the later games? How about blaming the ME2 & ME3 writers for failing to not take the Reapers' ability to seize control over the relay network into account when they first outlined the plots for ME2 & ME3. Instead, ME2 is wasted on the Collectors(better suited for an expansion pack than an actual game) and ME3 has the Reaper War which should never have happened(at least not in the way it was done in ME3 with the relays still usable for travel). 

[GimmeDaGun]

elitecom wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote... face the awful truth: the holy and untouchable lead writer in ME1 f.uck.ed it all up for the sequels... yep, yep. Cause there's no way the reapers couldn't retake and handle their own station (as they do in the end of the game eventually) if they wanted to. 

Wait so you're proposing to blame the ME1 writers for the ME2 & ME3 writers failure to adapt and uphold the plot of the later games? How about blaming the ME2 & ME3 writers for failing to not take the Reapers' ability to seize control over the relay network into account when they first outlined the plots for ME2 & ME3. Instead, ME2 is wasted on the Collectors(better suited for an expansion pack than an actual game) and ME3 has the Reaper War which should never have happened(at least not in the way it was done in ME3 with the relays still usable for travel). 

You miss the point. I put the blame on them because they basically wrote: "here's an enemy you can not defeat by any means...and there's no way you could evade something like this".

And what should have the writers of ME2 (mind you it was the same Drew - plus Mac - who wrote that story for ME1) and ME3 do about it? Seriously? They wrote themselves into a corner with ME1. They fell into their own trap writing-wise. 

If they made the reapers to try and take the Citadel in ME3 and shut the relays down, then there woud be no ending to this story at all... you die, everybody dies, the reapers win, bang. That's it. There's no plot devise, no plan, nothing that they could have come up with to explain why the reapers aren't doing the same thing they did with the protheans. Basically everything would be ridiculous and forced or would leave it unexplained as it is now (let the people speculate on it). So yeah it was the ME1 writer's fault, because he wrote this story as it was a singular one and not the first chapter of a trilogy. 

Think about it:

1. The Citadel is indistructable - ME1 (even the hugest of dark energy emitting devices - The Crucible - can't destroy it by releasing that huge amout of energy)
2. The Citadel is the reapers' and no one was able to discover its secrets yet. - ME1
3. The keepers make sure you don't discover its secrets. - ME1
4. The reapers have a huge armada with firepower and technology that surpasses anything you know. You can't just sabotage them like that if they are already here. - ME1
5. One single reaper is stronger then multiple fleets together. There's no way you can stop them by the usual hero flick crap, conventional pew-pew. - ME1
6. The Citadel is their central computer if you like: controller of the relays, a relay itself, a womb for the birth of reapers, part of the reaper's overlord, a tool of manipulation. So they can repair it and use it again any day, even if you spent a whole game just to sabotage it. - ME1, ME3
7. Through the Citadel and the relays the reaper basically controll the whole galaxy, no matter what you do. - ME1
8. By destroying Souverign, the Council thinks that the reaper threat ceased, so they don't care any more. It's only Shep, Anderson and Udina who remain somewhat aware of the coming threat. So the nations of the galaxy ignore the problem, they are no help at all. - ME1

So, yeah, they cornered themselves. **** happens. Or what Vigil said wasn't fully true: maybe they only shut down the relays for only those worlds where they were harvesting... doesn't matter. What reason would you come up with when you know that the Citadel problem can't be solved before the reapers arive (or how, in what way could it be solved?...what game would have that make? Shooting keepers? Investigating blindly for the Citadel's secrets?).... Naaah... still, think that they didn't think it through when they were writing ME1. They didn't write a trilogy (of course not, since they couldn't predict whether the game was going to be a success or failure), only one game and made it into a trilogy. Even if they hoped that they could make a trilogy from it.

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 22 janvier 2013 - 04:23 .

[BD Manchild]

I thought it was pretty well established that the Reapers couldn't take control of the Citadel, and thus the relay network, without some kind of "inside man". In previous cycles this was the Keepers, but after the Protheans found a way to block the control signal they had to seek out alternate means. Hence Saren in ME1. When he failed, and with no other suitable agents, the Reapers had to take the long route to the galaxy.

As to why they don't try to take the Citadel in ME3, I wish there was even a line that explained it, rather than leaving it open to speculation. The most I can think of is that the Reapers consider the Citadel to be too well-fortified now that they've long lost the element of surprise. Had the Cerberus coup succeeded, I think it likely that they may have taken control of the network through them.

However, the Catalyst's true nature, revealed in the last ten minutes of ME3, throws everything into question. If this thing was in the Citadel all that time and is the grand controller of the Reapers, why didn't it take control itself? Why did it ever need the Keepers or another agent to give him access?

Christ, I hate that ending so much.

[_aLucidMind_]

It's because the Reapers had been jerked around by Shepard and they, believing the cycle already knows about them, wants to show them that they don't need to shut down the relays to win. Curb-stomp everyone to prove a point that they're superior and unbeatable (unless they build the Crucible or have been preparing for centuries).

[GimmeDaGun]

BD Manchild wrote...

I thought it was pretty well established that the Reapers couldn't take control of the Citadel, and thus the relay network, without some kind of "inside man". In previous cycles this was the Keepers, but after the Protheans found a way to block the control signal they had to seek out alternate means. Hence Saren in ME1. When he failed, and with no other suitable agents, the Reapers had to take the long route to the galaxy.

As to why they don't try to take the Citadel in ME3, I wish there was even a line that explained it, rather than leaving it open to speculation. The most I can think of is that the Reapers consider the Citadel to be too well-fortified now that they've long lost the element of surprise. Had the Cerberus coup succeeded, I think it likely that they may have taken control of the network through them.

However, the Catalyst's true nature, revealed in the last ten minutes of ME3, throws everything into question. If this thing was in the Citadel all that time and is the grand controller of the Reapers, why didn't it take control itself? Why did it ever need the Keepers or another agent to give him access?

Christ, I hate that ending so much.

Well, the ending has nothing to do with this at all... and The Intelligence says it pretty clearly: the Citadel is only "part" of it. It is not the Citadel. As for why does it have no direct control over the Citadel? The same question could be asked about the reapers in ME1. Why did the reapers need the keepers in the first place? Why didn't they just have direct control over the Citadel? it's the same derp: see, these stories are full of these kind of silly things, in order to make the plot work (otherwise there would be no ME1-3 at all: Souverign wouldn't have needed Saren and any plan etc.). So, I guess it is for the same reason: The Catalyst\\Inteligence needed the keepers to control the Citadel "directly", but the keepers connection with its master has become broken by the protheans and they evolved on their own and became independent (?)...independent form the masters of indoctrination (derp again). So maybe the Catalyst needed its "pawns" (according to Leviathan), just as much as the reapers needed them in order to control the Citadel. 

It still does not give an answer to the original question though. Why don't the reapers go instantly and help out their overlord and themselves by taking control of the Citadel. It's either intentional from the reaper's part, or simply... does not make sense.


See? The writing is broken starting from ME1. It's not only ME3 (and ME2). Does this make the games and the story ****ty? No, but certainly it is not perfect and has many forced plot points and uneplained "plot holes" (if you too like to abuse this word).

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 22 janvier 2013 - 04:41 .

[elitecom]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

elitecom wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote... face the awful truth: the holy and untouchable lead writer in ME1 f.uck.ed it all up for the sequels... yep, yep. Cause there's no way the reapers couldn't retake and handle their own station (as they do in the end of the game eventually) if they wanted to. 

Wait so you're proposing to blame the ME1 writers for the ME2 & ME3 writers failure to adapt and uphold the plot of the later games? How about blaming the ME2 & ME3 writers for failing to not take the Reapers' ability to seize control over the relay network into account when they first outlined the plots for ME2 & ME3. Instead, ME2 is wasted on the Collectors(better suited for an expansion pack than an actual game) and ME3 has the Reaper War which should never have happened(at least not in the way it was done in ME3 with the relays still usable for travel). 

You miss the point. I put the blame on them because they basically wrote: "here's an enemy you can not defeat by any means...and there's no way you could evade something like this".

And what should have the writers of ME2 (mind you it was the same Drew - plus Mac - who wrote that story for ME1) and ME3 do about it? Seriously? They wrote themselves into a corner with ME1. They fell into their own trap writing-wise. 

If they made the reapers to try and take the Citadel in ME3 and shut the relays down, then there woud be no ending to this story at all... you die, everybody dies, the reapers win, bang. That's it. There's no plot devise, no plan, nothing that they could have come up with to explain why the reapers aren't doing the same thing they did with the protheans. Basically everything would be ridiculous and forced or would leave it unexplained as it is now (let the people speculate on it). So yeah it was the ME1 writer's fault, because he wrote this story as it was a singular one and not the first chapter of a trilogy. 

Think about it:

1. The Citadel is indistructable - ME1 (even the hugest of dark energy emitting devices - The Crucible - can't destroy it by releasing that huge amout of energy)
2. The Citadel is the reapers' and no one was able to discover its secrets yet. - ME1
3. The keepers make sure you don't discover its secrets. - ME1
4. The reapers have a huge armada with firepower and technology that surpasses anything you know. You can't just sabotage them like that if they are already here. - ME1
5. One single reaper is stronger then multiple fleets together. There's no way you can stop them by the usual hero flick crap, conventional pew-pew. - ME1
6. The Citadel is their central computer if you like: controller of the relays, a relay itself, a womb for the birth of reapers, part of the reaper's overlord, a tool of manipulation. So they can repair it and use it again any day, even if you spent a whole game just to sabotage it. - ME1, ME3
7. Through the Citadel and the relays the reaper basically controll the whole galaxy, no matter what you do. - ME1
8. By destroying Souverign, the Council thinks that the reaper threat ceased, so they don't care any more. It's only Shep, Anderson and Udina who remain somewhat aware of the coming threat. So the nations of the galaxy ignore the problem, they are no help at all. - ME1

So, yeah, they cornered themselves. **** happens. Or what Vigil said wasn't fully true: maybe they only shut down the relays for only those worlds where they were harvesting... doesn't matter. What reason would you come up with when you know that the Citadel problem can't be solved before the reapers arive (or how, in what way could it be solved?...what game would have that make? Shooting keepers? Investigating blindly for the Citadel's secrets?).... Naaah... still, think that they didn't think it through when they were writing ME1. They didn't write a trilogy (of course not, since they couldn't predict whether the game was going to be a success or failure), only one game and made it into a trilogy. Even if they hoped that they could make a trilogy from it.

Believe me I didn't miss your point but I believe you missed mine. I understand what you are saying: You put the blame on the writers for ME1 for creating that problem, that is that the Reapers seize control over the relay network. I'm blaming the writers of ME2 & ME3 for not thinking of a way to adapt the plot of the story to what was established in ME1. And I'm pretty sure that it's not impossible.

You say that there cannot be a ME3 if the Reapers could just sieze control over the relay network, that is true. What I'm saying is that should ME3 really be about that? Should it be about a galactic war? By keeping what was established in ME1 I don't believe a galactic war is plausible, at least not in the way it was done in ME3. 
 

[GimmeDaGun]

elitecom wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

elitecom wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote... face the awful truth: the holy and untouchable lead writer in ME1 f.uck.ed it all up for the sequels... yep, yep. Cause there's no way the reapers couldn't retake and handle their own station (as they do in the end of the game eventually) if they wanted to. 

Wait so you're proposing to blame the ME1 writers for the ME2 & ME3 writers failure to adapt and uphold the plot of the later games? How about blaming the ME2 & ME3 writers for failing to not take the Reapers' ability to seize control over the relay network into account when they first outlined the plots for ME2 & ME3. Instead, ME2 is wasted on the Collectors(better suited for an expansion pack than an actual game) and ME3 has the Reaper War which should never have happened(at least not in the way it was done in ME3 with the relays still usable for travel). 

You miss the point. I put the blame on them because they basically wrote: "here's an enemy you can not defeat by any means...and there's no way you could evade something like this".

And what should have the writers of ME2 (mind you it was the same Drew - plus Mac - who wrote that story for ME1) and ME3 do about it? Seriously? They wrote themselves into a corner with ME1. They fell into their own trap writing-wise. 

If they made the reapers to try and take the Citadel in ME3 and shut the relays down, then there woud be no ending to this story at all... you die, everybody dies, the reapers win, bang. That's it. There's no plot devise, no plan, nothing that they could have come up with to explain why the reapers aren't doing the same thing they did with the protheans. Basically everything would be ridiculous and forced or would leave it unexplained as it is now (let the people speculate on it). So yeah it was the ME1 writer's fault, because he wrote this story as it was a singular one and not the first chapter of a trilogy. 

Think about it:

1. The Citadel is indistructable - ME1 (even the hugest of dark energy emitting devices - The Crucible - can't destroy it by releasing that huge amout of energy)
2. The Citadel is the reapers' and no one was able to discover its secrets yet. - ME1
3. The keepers make sure you don't discover its secrets. - ME1
4. The reapers have a huge armada with firepower and technology that surpasses anything you know. You can't just sabotage them like that if they are already here. - ME1
5. One single reaper is stronger then multiple fleets together. There's no way you can stop them by the usual hero flick crap, conventional pew-pew. - ME1
6. The Citadel is their central computer if you like: controller of the relays, a relay itself, a womb for the birth of reapers, part of the reaper's overlord, a tool of manipulation. So they can repair it and use it again any day, even if you spent a whole game just to sabotage it. - ME1, ME3
7. Through the Citadel and the relays the reaper basically controll the whole galaxy, no matter what you do. - ME1
8. By destroying Souverign, the Council thinks that the reaper threat ceased, so they don't care any more. It's only Shep, Anderson and Udina who remain somewhat aware of the coming threat. So the nations of the galaxy ignore the problem, they are no help at all. - ME1

So, yeah, they cornered themselves. **** happens. Or what Vigil said wasn't fully true: maybe they only shut down the relays for only those worlds where they were harvesting... doesn't matter. What reason would you come up with when you know that the Citadel problem can't be solved before the reapers arive (or how, in what way could it be solved?...what game would have that make? Shooting keepers? Investigating blindly for the Citadel's secrets?).... Naaah... still, think that they didn't think it through when they were writing ME1. They didn't write a trilogy (of course not, since they couldn't predict whether the game was going to be a success or failure), only one game and made it into a trilogy. Even if they hoped that they could make a trilogy from it.

Believe me I didn't miss your point but I believe you missed mine. I understand what you are saying: You put the blame on the writers for ME1 for creating that problem, that is that the Reapers seize control over the relay network. I'm blaming the writers of ME2 & ME3 for not thinking of a way to adapt the plot of the story to what was established in ME1. And I'm pretty sure that it's not impossible.

You say that there cannot be a ME3 if the Reapers could just sieze control over the relay network, that is true. What I'm saying is that should ME3 really be about that? Should it be about a galactic war? By keeping what was established in ME1 I don't believe a galactic war is plausible, at least not in the way it was done in ME3. 
 

I see your point now, though I don't see how you could continue the story without the reapers' arrival, hence without the war against the reapers. It was pretty obvious that their huge armada would arrive at one point and cause a "bit of" trouble in the galaxy. So if there was ever going to be a sequel to ME1... it was inevitable to conclude it with a conflict with the reapers at one point (ME1 as the first installment of an epic series kind of made that promise). And there, with it come all the problems I mentioned.

If the story took a completely different turn, without a reaper war, people would be disappointed as hell: no clash with the reapers at all, means no catharsis. ME1 built up a conflict (a pretty difficult one... ) which was to be solved at one point with an epic conclusion (since ME1 was an epic action-sci-fi game, ME3 and even ME2 needed to surpass it in scope and scale-wise, in epicness, if you like): which can only mean one thing... defeating the reapers.  That's what a potential sequel promised and that's what people expected. And in order to defeat the reapers you must face them, so witness their destructive work (=war), otherwise it wouldn't be epic and the whole story would make no sense (what would the reapers do instead? sit on their tentacles? play poker? all of them hunting for Shepard?). So if you face them, that inevitably means that they are here, in the galaxy, in one niche with Shepard. And if they are here... well, comes the problem of the Citadel and relay control.

If you really wanted a story without a reaper war or conflict (which would be ridiculous since we know that the reapers are coming for us and will start harvesting, destroying civilizations at one point, according to ME1), then they could have just ended the story with ME1: reapers are stuck in dark space, because of the heroic intervetnion of commander Shepard, thus conflict solved: no need to continue at all: happy ending. Why bother making two additional games then? 

And no matter in what way you write this war story with or without the Crucible, Cerberus, Catalyst whatever; hell, it could be a totally different story... the problem would be still present: why the hell don't the (very powerful) reapers just take the (indestructible) Citadel and do their thing without bothering about Shepard or anybody else... ending the story with the happy reaper harvest and Shep and friends all turned into husks or worse... 


And remember: no cheap way out. The reapers are so powerful and many that you can't defeat them conventionally. It is so because of ME1 (we could see it with our own eyes with one reaper and hear the story of the much more advanced protheans). So no going out to dark space with an armada to meet them or some other crazy idea.

So this is not the ME2-3 writer's problem. It is very much the ME1 writer's problem, since he set an untanglable knot in the story. 

[GHNR]

Some Clusters are entirely dependent on imports to survive. If the Reapers shut down all the Relays, most of the organics would die, before they would be properly harvested.

[elitecom]

GimmeDaGun wrote...I see your point now, though I don't see how you could continue the story without the reapers' arrival, hence without the war against the reapers. It was pretty obvious that their huge armada would arrive at one point and cause a "bit of" trouble in the galaxy. So if there was ever going to be a sequel to ME1... it was inevitable to conclude it with a conflict with the reapers at one point (ME1 as the first installment of an epic series kind of made that promise). And there, with it come all the problems I mentioned.

If the story took a completely different turn, without a reaper war, people would be disappointed as hell: no clash with the reapers at all, means no catharsis. ME1 built up a conflict (a pretty difficult one... ) which was to be solved at one point with an epic conclusion (since ME1 was an epic action-sci-fi game, ME3 and even ME2 needed to surpass it in scope and scale-wise, in epicness, if you like): which can only mean one thing... defeating the reapers.  That's what a potential sequel promised and that's what people expected. And in order to defeat the reapers you must face them, so witness their destructive work (=war), otherwise it wouldn't be epic and the whole story would make no sense (what would the reapers do instead? sit on their tentacles? play poker? all of them hunting for Shepard?). So if you face them, that inevitably means that they are here, in the galaxy, in one niche with Shepard. And if they are here... well, comes the problem of the Citadel and relay control.

If you really wanted a story without a reaper war or conflict (which would be ridiculous since we know that the reapers are coming for us and will start harvesting, destroying civilizations at one point, according to ME1), then they could have just ended the story with ME1: reapers are stuck in dark space, because of the heroic intervetnion of commander Shepard, thus conflict solved: no need to continue at all: happy ending. Why bother making two additional games then? 

And no matter in what way you write this war story with or without the Crucible, Cerberus, Catalyst whatever; hell, it could be a totally different story... the problem would be still present: why the hell don't the (very powerful) reapers just take the (indestructible) Citadel and do their thing without bothering about Shepard or anybody else... ending the story with the happy reaper harvest and Shep and friends all turned into husks or worse... 


And remember: no cheap way out. The reapers are so powerful and many that you can't defeat them conventionally. It is so because of ME1 (we could see it with our own eyes with one reaper and hear the story of the much more advanced protheans). So no going out to dark space with an armada to meet them or some other crazy idea.

So this is not the ME2-3 writer's problem. It is very much the ME1 writer's problem, since he set an untanglable knot in the story. 

I see that you feel that a Reaper war would be a fitting conclusion to the series, but what Reaper war did we have in ME3? We only fought a Reaper once and it wasn't even a Sovereign sized one in ME3. Besides that we only thought Reaper mutated beings and Cerberus troops, so considering the enemies we went on to fight in both ME2 & ME3 we should have continued to fight Reaper agents in a ME3 that didn't ingore ME1. Be they indoctrinated organics or other synthetics like Geth. 

I cannot come up with an alternative plot here on the fly for a ME3 that cared about the plot in ME1, but I can tell you one thing: The final battle should have been over the Citadel between the council races and the Reapers. If the Reapers win they take control over the relay network and we loose, if we win, well that's another story. But it is much better than fighting over Earth, a final fight over the Citadel reflects the stakes and the nature of the conflict much better. Namely that it is a galactic conflict where all organic life is at stake, not just Earth. The franchise was never about Earth anyway.

Bottom line don't blame the ME1 writers for the ME2&ME3 writers inability to not write a cohesive story.

[Dormin]

Vigil said a lot of things...him and Sovereign were in cohoots getting our hopes up.

[dorktainian]

they did shut down the mass relays.... in all three endings.... check them out.

[simonrana]

GimmeDaGun wrote...
Well, the ending has nothing to do with this at all... and The Intelligence says it pretty clearly: the Citadel is only "part" of it. It is not the Citadel. As for why does it have no direct control over the Citadel? The same question could be asked about the reapers in ME1. Why did the reapers need the keepers in the first place? Why didn't they just have direct control over the Citadel? it's the same derp:

You have a point there - is it a bit illogical that the Reapers wouldn't have given themselves direct control of the thing they created (or at least they created as far as we knew back in ME1).

However it's still not the same as this loophole. Vigil told us that the Reapers are unable to control the Citadel directly, thus justifying the need for Saren and the Conduit. EDIT: Also they did the necessary groundwork of introducing the mystery of the keepers from the start of the game so it all tied together at the end.

There is nothing in ME3 that tells us why the Catalyst has no control over the Citadel even though "it is a part of [it]" or why the Conduit can't be used  again to access the Citadel. It's just all thrown together without any thought of maintaining logic or consistency.

Modifié par simonrana, 25 janvier 2013 - 03:22 .

[RedBeardJim]

You miss the point. I put the blame on them because they basically wrote: "here's an enemy you can not defeat by any means...and there's no way you could evade something like this".

And what should have the writers of ME2 (mind you it was the same Drew - plus Mac - who wrote that story for ME1) and ME3 do about it? Seriously? They wrote themselves into a corner with ME1. They fell into their own trap writing-wise. 

If they made the reapers to try and take the Citadel in ME3 and shut the relays down, then there woud be no ending to this story at all... you die, everybody dies, the reapers win, bang. That's it. There's no plot devise, no plan, nothing that they could have come up with to explain why the reapers aren't doing the same thing they did with the protheans. Basically everything would be ridiculous and forced or would leave it unexplained as it is now (let the people speculate on it). So yeah it was the ME1 writer's fault, because he wrote this story as it was a singular one and not the first chapter of a trilogy. 

Think about it:

1. The Citadel is indistructable - ME1 (even the hugest of dark energy emitting devices - The Crucible - can't destroy it by releasing that huge amout of energy)
2. The Citadel is the reapers' and no one was able to discover its secrets yet. - ME1
3. The keepers make sure you don't discover its secrets. - ME1
4. The reapers have a huge armada with firepower and technology that surpasses anything you know. You can't just sabotage them like that if they are already here. - ME1
5. One single reaper is stronger then multiple fleets together. There's no way you can stop them by the usual hero flick crap, conventional pew-pew. - ME1
6. The Citadel is their central computer if you like: controller of the relays, a relay itself, a womb for the birth of reapers, part of the reaper's overlord, a tool of manipulation. So they can repair it and use it again any day, even if you spent a whole game just to sabotage it. - ME1, ME3
7. Through the Citadel and the relays the reaper basically controll the whole galaxy, no matter what you do. - ME1
8. By destroying Souverign, the Council thinks that the reaper threat ceased, so they don't care any more. It's only Shep, Anderson and Udina who remain somewhat aware of the coming threat. So the nations of the galaxy ignore the problem, they are no help at all. - ME1

So, yeah, they cornered themselves. **** happens. Or what Vigil said wasn't fully true: maybe they only shut down the relays for only those worlds where they were harvesting... doesn't matter. What reason would you come up with when you know that the Citadel problem can't be solved before the reapers arive (or how, in what way could it be solved?...what game would have that make? Shooting keepers? Investigating blindly for the Citadel's secrets?).... Naaah... still, think that they didn't think it through when they were writing ME1. They didn't write a trilogy (of course not, since they couldn't predict whether the game was going to be a success or failure), only one game and made it into a trilogy. Even if they hoped that they could make a trilogy from it.

Well, I disagree that they set up the Reapers in ME1 as being unbeatable. Unbeatable, *if they were allowed to do their typical seize-the-Citadel and divide-and-conquer strategy*, yes. The implication being that's why they did it that way. That was the entire plot of ME1, that you *prevent* them from doing that, allowing the races of the galaxy a fighting chance.

The fight against Sovereign doesn't prove anything about Reaper invincibility, since (A) it was a surprise attack against an unprepared and underpowered fleet (the only dreadnought on-site is the Destiny Ascension), ( a lot of the damage was done by the Geth armada, not Sovereign (they're who take out the Destiny Ascension, for ex), and © SOVEREIGN GETS BLOWN UP. By a bunch of cruisers and frigates.

All of the "We can't beat them in a conventional war!" talk comes from ME3, along with such things as (A) retconning the losses at the Citadel battle (*if* you save the Council) from 8 Alliance cruisers to more than a third of two whole Alliance fleets, ( making the Reapers into such overwhelming enemies that they can just bypass the Citadel entirely and still have all the races on the brink of complete defeat in less than a year. (seriously, it took them centuries to conquer the Protheans? Why?) They did this so that the Crucible can feel like the only viable strategy.

But the ME3 writers tried to have it both ways. The Reapers ignored the Citadel to start their invasion, showing that it either wasn't necessary for them in the first place or that it wasn't accessible to them -- but then they take it anyway at the end of the game, with no more mention than a 10-second snippet of conversation. No "how did they do that?", no nothing. So if they could do that, so easily (seriously, it happens off-screen while you're at the Cerberus base), why didn't they do it before?!?

As for how to fix it, how to have it not be a plothole that breaks the continuity so badly? Add some dialogue or a codex entry or *something* that establishes that the Reaper ability to control the Citadel is broken, and then don't have the Citadel be part of the Crucible. Skip the Citadel capture entirely. Have the Catalyst be something else. This also neatly avoide such problems as "so why did I spend so much time doing all those fetch quests for future corpses" and "why did I spend so much time building up the useless Citadel Defense Force, and why are they still on my War Assets after the Citadel gets jacked?!?"

[Maxster_]

Seboist wrote...

WolfyZA wrote...

Agree with you... If they did things like Vigil said they would Sheppard would've been dead in days or weeks after the invasion. But as fate would have it Sheppard and friends just happen to jump onto the Normandy fly pass the Reapers in the beginning without any of the Reapers even attempting to shoot down the ship. God the plot holes are so visible it makes me wanna punch somebody in the face!!!

Yeah, the biggest problem is not how they botched the ending but how they botched the Reaper invasion.

A more lore consistent intro would have been starting off on the Citadel and having to to sabotage the master control unit and evacuating VIPs and valuable assets off of it .

It is the only sane thing to do.
Actually that should be a part of task of ME2, but even with ME3 that could be done, though a bit(or more) contrived.
Not contrived as what we got of course, like pure garbage Crucible concept.

[Maxster_]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

It's not a plothole: if it happened that way, there would be no ME3 or it would take 3 minutes (reapers come, invade, get the Citadel, shut down the relay network, Shep stucks on Earth and dies, reapers wipe out the galaxy in a few decades or centuries... happy ending).
...

It is not a plothole because there is no other way to write it differently? What a pathetic excuse.

It is exactly what it is - a plothole. Result of a horrible writing.
As is reapers arrival, as is was presented in ME3 - this destroyed overarching series plot.

Hey Max! Good, to see you again! 

Yes, yes, "terrible" ...the rest of your arguments I already know, and since I'm - how did you put it -  a "clown" and "wrong" and "pathetic", I don't think that I make a good argument for you and I don't have time for this bs. So... how did Ninja Stan say it?


"I respectfully disagree with you Maxter_." 

Byez! 

Pathetic

Your only argument is to blame ME1 writers for a crap that was in ME2 and ME3.
You are defending EAWare garbage writing of sequels, by blaming only part of series that was written well.

[Sajuro]

Honiahaka wrote...

I was under the impression that the Relay Network was controlled by the Citadel. Although why the Reapers didn't start shutting them off when they seized control of the Citadel I don't know.

They knew the races had something called the Crucible and were going to throw everything at them, maybe the Reapers figured they could break the backs of the races in record time.

[Sajuro]

Seboist wrote...

WolfyZA wrote...

Agree with you... If they did things like Vigil said they would Sheppard would've been dead in days or weeks after the invasion. But as fate would have it Sheppard and friends just happen to jump onto the Normandy fly pass the Reapers in the beginning without any of the Reapers even attempting to shoot down the ship. God the plot holes are so visible it makes me wanna punch somebody in the face!!!

Yeah, the biggest problem is not how they botched the ending but how they botched the Reaper invasion.

A more lore consistent intro would have been starting off on the Citadel and having to to sabotage the master control unit and evacuating VIPs and valuable assets off of it .

The Reapers came out in Batarian space, Batarian space which is not close to the Citadel at all. The races will notice an entire fleet of Reapers coming through the relay system and lock down the Citadel. The Point of ME1 was to deny them the Citadel at the first strike