148 réponses à ce sujet

[philippe willaume]

The Razman wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

The Citadel remains. The Relays however dont.

Question it. If the relays are destroyed as with the other two endings, why didn't they leave in the explosion as with those ones? If the Crucible's energy being emitted is what destroys the relays (direct quote from the Starchild), then why would they be destroyed if the Crucible doesn't fire (which, as you've just said, it doesn't in the Control ending).

Isn't it more likely that Bioware messed up on that one base clip, rather than something illogical happen like the relays get destroyed when there's no reason for them to be?

Well, we know that they messed up with the endings full stop....:-)

So everything is kind of possible.
Sorry I did not really get what you were saying.
I went from the angle of making sense of what we have so we don’t need a what if.
I.E no they did not goof, on that very point that is .
 
Because we are explicitly told the energy release regardless of what we choose would destroy the mass relay
I though it was the coloured sphere that was the energy emitted, and that in the other endings the said  back fired destroying the citadel and that back fire caused the relay to explode


So for the control ending I took it that the sphere messed up with the really causing it to collapse instead of the back fire beam.
I though that we the citadel (i.e. now shepard+GC) closed and would go where the reaper are going to go.

From what I understood the point of all the ending was to leave the galaxy in the same state for the next intelligent.
 
That being said yes I see the inconsistencies and the question you ask, but all ending have some.
So for me it still feel as if you were saying that the humanised Tricia Hefner character lives on in the red ending because bioware forgot to show her and cristal –bones in the shuttle sequence.
 
Not that I am against it I am all for stuff that makes your play through meaningful and I can see play through where the ending you propose would work really well.
 
 
The better explained/new ending will hopefully tell us.
 
phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 27 mars 2012 - 02:18 .

[Farbautisonn]

Tirigon wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

I think bioware was behind the battle of hastings.

Probably, but I dont see the relation to this thread.

-The relation is that wishfull thinking, conspiracy theories and wild speculation doesnt really alter what we have. Any argumentation that starts with the basic fallacy "bioware didnt intend" is a strawman and really it ends there.

Bioware showed us what they intended to show us. If they had intended to show us something different, they would have done so.

[XTR3M3]

what is the point? that there is a difference in the A,B, and C endings? We already knew that. At 3:23 in this Youtube spoiler ending vid, you can see the mass relay start to come apart after it transmits the signal.

All this is trying to do is deflect attention from the fact that we were promised not to have an A,B, or C ending and that is exactly what we got. We were also promised that our choices would matter for the ending and the only thing that rEAlly mattered was EMS level.

[BiancoAngelo7]

The Razman wrote...

Bioware's intention was that the relays not be destroyed in this ending.

Dude, you have now degenerated to having the only defense of your completely invalid argument as "I know what Bioware's intention was even though they showed us something completely different in the game"

You have now reached the level of denial, and if you continue, it will become apparent you are trolling.

Countless people here have brought all the evidence you need.

Starchild says they explode.
We SEE the relays break apart with internal explosions
The galaxy map shows us the shockwave of energy that for some reason you tried to take as "well its just the energy not the explosion" ... what????
Joker is running AWAY from said EXPLOSION shock wave in ALL the endings
All "endings" show all the relays shooting or transmitting the beam to the other relays right before they blow.

You are trying to deduce an answer that suits YOUR theory by eliminating or explaining away with your own conjections EVERY single piece of evidence that disproves it (everything) and focusing SOLELY on the ONE thing that doesn't disprove it (omission of one part of the end).

Notice how I said DOESN'T DISPROVE, not "PROVES" because there's absolutely nothing proving ANYTHING of what you've said.

Razman, it's time to stop. It's gotten to the point of you saying "the sky isn't blue because at sunset its orange...that means nature INTENDED it to be orange, but it goofed, trust me guys, im right"

Seriously....

Modifié par BiancoAngelo7, 27 mars 2012 - 02:33 .

[Costin_Razvan]

How about you explain the Citadel surviving in Control then. Forget the scene with Charon, where besides the wave hitting it in Control instead of the beam it's basically the same scene while it's charging up, but we don't have an extra scene with it's exploding like in the other 2 endings.

The Citadel is a Relay.
The Citadel emits that wave that supposedly blows up all the Relays in Control
The Citadel survives in Control.

The Catalyst claims releasing the energy will blow up all the Mass Relays, but that's contradictory to evidence of the Citadel surviving. You can't claim all the Relays are destroyed when we see one clearly surviving in Control and Charon possibily surviving as well.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 27 mars 2012 - 02:48 .

[XTR3M3]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

How about you explain the Citadel surviving in Control then. Forget the scene with Charon, where besides the wave hitting it in Control instead of the beam it's basically the same scene while it's charging up, but we don't have an extra scene with it's exploding like in the other 2 endings.

The Citadel is a Relay.
The Citadel emits that wave that supposedly blows up all the Relays in Control
The Citadel survives in Control.

The Catalyst claims releasing the energy will blow up all the Mass Relays, but that's contradictory to evidence of the Citadel surviving. You can't claim all the Relays are destroyed when we see one clearly surviving in Control and Charon possibily surviving as well.

What is the point of all of this? Is it to try to convince us that we were wrong and the endings are good and do live up to BioWare's promises? The fact is that the "blue" ending is just the "A" ending of the A,B,C endings were were told we WOULD NOT have and that our choices would matter. Yea, there is some SLIGHT variation in the A,B,C endings but NONE of our choices mattered.....THAT is the problem...that and the lore/plot holes.

[The Razman]

Tirigon wrote...

Because it is NOT a shockwave. It passes over Earth without inflicting any damage, while a shockwave would knock over everything it hits. The video makes it obvious that whatever that blue light is, it is not a physical force.

True, the initial wave isn't ... but whatever is emitted when the relay starts spinning like crazy and pulses down the mass relay corridor sure looks physical enough to me?

Which again is stupid; if the initial wave is enough to trigger the chain reaction across all Mass Relays, why would the Crucible even fire in the other endings?

That is the problem with this ending; every explanation opens another plothole.

That's not a plothole, it's logically consistent with everything the Starchild has said.

If the Starchild controls the Reapers, in whatever form ... it already does that without the Crucible, since its been doing it for millions of years before we came along. Why would the Crucible be required for Sheperd to take control of the process? It isn't ... that's why the Crucible never fires in that ending. The other two endings require the Crucible's energy to change things (either destroying the Reaper technology or combining everything with synthesis).

The real flaw here is that the writing just isn't clear enough to make these things obvious ... but it's all there, if you look.

[The Razman]

Callidus Thorn wrote...

Absolutely wrong I'm afraid. Yes, what you see is different, but with the control ending everything still blows up. The relay is hit by a pulse rather than a beam, which is then converted into the beam that would've been fired, which is why they play out the same from that point. Different process means a different result for the Sol relay, but after that, as the galaxy view shows, exploding relays everywhere.

The galaxy view shows pulses. In your head, you've construed that to mean "explosions".

I challenge you to find a single explosion within the Control ending.

[The Razman]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Bioware's intention was that the relays not be destroyed in this ending.

Dude, you have now degenerated to having the only defense of your completely invalid argument as "I know what Bioware's intention was even though they showed us something completely different in the game"

You have now reached the level of denial, and if you continue, it will become apparent you are trolling.

Countless people here have brought all the evidence you need.

Starchild says they explode.
We SEE the relays break apart with internal explosions
The galaxy map shows us the shockwave of energy that for some reason you tried to take as "well its just the energy not the explosion" ... what????
Joker is running AWAY from said EXPLOSION shock wave in ALL the endings
All "endings" show all the relays shooting or transmitting the beam to the other relays right before they blow.

You are trying to deduce an answer that suits YOUR theory by eliminating or explaining away with your own conjections EVERY single piece of evidence that disproves it (everything) and focusing SOLELY on the ONE thing that doesn't disprove it (omission of one part of the end).

Notice how I said DOESN'T DISPROVE, not "PROVES" because there's absolutely nothing proving ANYTHING of what you've said.

Razman, it's time to stop. It's gotten to the point of you saying "the sky isn't blue because at sunset its orange...that means nature INTENDED it to be orange, but it goofed, trust me guys, im right"

Seriously....

Oh boy, I so look forward to the clarification DLC. :-D

[Callidus Thorn]

The Razman wrote...

Callidus Thorn wrote...

Absolutely wrong I'm afraid. Yes, what you see is different, but with the control ending everything still blows up. The relay is hit by a pulse rather than a beam, which is then converted into the beam that would've been fired, which is why they play out the same from that point. Different process means a different result for the Sol relay, but after that, as the galaxy view shows, exploding relays everywhere.

The galaxy view shows pulses. In your head, you've construed that to mean "explosions".

I challenge you to find a single explosion within the Control ending.

Generating the beam destroyed the Sol relay. You really think generating both a pulse and a beam to fire at the next relay will leave the other relays intact? Also in the other two endings we see what happens when the relays are hit with the beam, with the same effects even though they are supposed to do different things, so it's safe to assume that the control beam would have the same effect on the relays as the other two.

[The Razman]

XTR3M3 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

How about you explain the Citadel surviving in Control then. Forget the scene with Charon, where besides the wave hitting it in Control instead of the beam it's basically the same scene while it's charging up, but we don't have an extra scene with it's exploding like in the other 2 endings.

The Citadel is a Relay.
The Citadel emits that wave that supposedly blows up all the Relays in Control
The Citadel survives in Control.

The Catalyst claims releasing the energy will blow up all the Mass Relays, but that's contradictory to evidence of the Citadel surviving. You can't claim all the Relays are destroyed when we see one clearly surviving in Control and Charon possibily surviving as well.

What is the point of all of this? Is it to try to convince us that we were wrong and the endings are good and do live up to BioWare's promises? The fact is that the "blue" ending is just the "A" ending of the A,B,C endings were were told we WOULD NOT have and that our choices would matter. Yea, there is some SLIGHT variation in the A,B,C endings but NONE of our choices mattered.....THAT is the problem...that and the lore/plot holes.

The point is that people have assumed that all the relays are destroyed in all the endings, and they are incorrect in doing so. That's the only point that anyone's making in this thread.

[The Razman]

Callidus Thorn wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Callidus Thorn wrote...

Absolutely wrong I'm afraid. Yes, what you see is different, but with the control ending everything still blows up. The relay is hit by a pulse rather than a beam, which is then converted into the beam that would've been fired, which is why they play out the same from that point. Different process means a different result for the Sol relay, but after that, as the galaxy view shows, exploding relays everywhere.

The galaxy view shows pulses. In your head, you've construed that to mean "explosions".

I challenge you to find a single explosion within the Control ending.

Generating the beam destroyed the Sol relay. You really think generating both a pulse and a beam to fire at the next relay will leave the other relays intact? Also in the other two endings we see what happens when the relays are hit with the beam, with the same effects even though they are supposed to do different things, so it's safe to assume that the control beam would have the same effect on the relays as the other two.

Not with the same effects, though. The other two endings have explosions, explicitly. The Control ending does not.

If the relays are meant to be destroyed ... then what exactly is the purpose behind specifically and deliberately omitting that explosion shot in the Control ending? Why not just leave it the same, if the intent is for the relays to all be destroyed?

[Ieldra]

OP, you are absolutely correct.
Control is open to the interpretation that the relays do not explode.

About two weeks ago, I put together a thread with the collected evidence. Mainly, the same info as you posted only a little more detailed.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 mars 2012 - 03:15 .

[XTR3M3]

in this youtube vid,

you can clearly see the relay start to come apart at 3:22-3:23 in the vid. given it is not the same type of destruction/explosion as in the other 2 but the relay still breaks apart.
here is also a screenie for those who don't want to watch the vid

[The Razman]

Thank you, Ieldra ... I know I'm not the first person to post about this by far, but you know how posts get buried in here. You and Aesshep from earlier got there before me, and did beautiful work doing so.

It's confusing that your posts got buried, considering they contain such important information about the ending.

[Callidus Thorn]

The Razman wrote...

Callidus Thorn wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Callidus Thorn wrote...

Absolutely wrong I'm afraid. Yes, what you see is different, but with the control ending everything still blows up. The relay is hit by a pulse rather than a beam, which is then converted into the beam that would've been fired, which is why they play out the same from that point. Different process means a different result for the Sol relay, but after that, as the galaxy view shows, exploding relays everywhere.

The galaxy view shows pulses. In your head, you've construed that to mean "explosions".

I challenge you to find a single explosion within the Control ending.

Generating the beam destroyed the Sol relay. You really think generating both a pulse and a beam to fire at the next relay will leave the other relays intact? Also in the other two endings we see what happens when the relays are hit with the beam, with the same effects even though they are supposed to do different things, so it's safe to assume that the control beam would have the same effect on the relays as the other two.

Not with the same effects, though. The other two endings have explosions, explicitly. The Control ending does not.

If the relays are meant to be destroyed ... then what exactly is the purpose behind specifically and deliberately omitting that explosion shot in the Control ending? Why not just leave it the same, if the intent is for the relays to all be destroyed?

The Sol relay appears to be hit by the initial pulse, rather than the focused and destructive beam from the other endings. But it fires out the beam, rather than a pulse like the one that hit it. You don't see the Sol relay explode because what happened to it is not what happened to the others, it's the exception. not the rule.

[The Razman]

XTR3M3 wrote...

in this youtube vid,

you can clearly see the relay start to come apart at 3:22-3:23 in the vid. given it is not the same type of destruction/explosion as in the other 2 but the relay still breaks apart.
here is also a screenie for those who don't want to watch the vid

We're suggesting that's a mistake, my friend. Borne out of using the same footage for each of the endings.

Everything else in that ending points to it not being destroyed, from the omission of an explosion shot after that one you've taken a picture of, to the Citadel not emitting a beam when the Catalyst says its the emission of the beam that will cause the destruction of the relays, to the very fact that the Citadel itself is so obviously not destroyed in this ending despite it itself being a gigantic mass relay.

It all fits. What's so hard to believe about it?

[Oldbones2]

The Razman wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

"...Releasing the energy of the crucible will end the cycle, but it will also destroy the mass relays."

The Catalyst. Speaking in regards to Shepard's choices.

Relays go boom. Case closed.

Exactly. This is proof of what I'm saying.

The Citadel/Crucible does not release its energy in the Control ending. You very clearly see the arms of the Citadel closing, its beam is never released, and the Citadel is never destroyed.

In the other two endings, the Crucible does fire a beam at the relays ... destroying them. But not the Control ending.

If the energy wasn't released, then nothing would happen.  Regardless of what ending you choose the Relays ARE destroyed.

[The Razman]

Oldbones2 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

"...Releasing the energy of the crucible will end the cycle, but it will also destroy the mass relays."

The Catalyst. Speaking in regards to Shepard's choices.

Relays go boom. Case closed.

Exactly. This is proof of what I'm saying.

The Citadel/Crucible does not release its energy in the Control ending. You very clearly see the arms of the Citadel closing, its beam is never released, and the Citadel is never destroyed.

In the other two endings, the Crucible does fire a beam at the relays ... destroying them. But not the Control ending.

If the energy wasn't released, then nothing would happen.  Regardless of what ending you choose the Relays ARE destroyed.

Why would that be? Sheperd is taking control of the Starchild's method of controlling all the Reapers in the galaxy, which he's been doing for millions of years without the Crucible's energy. Why would the Crucible be required to do that?

[XTR3M3]

The Razman wrote...

XTR3M3 wrote...

in this youtube vid,

you can clearly see the relay start to come apart at 3:22-3:23 in the vid. given it is not the same type of destruction/explosion as in the other 2 but the relay still breaks apart.
here is also a screenie for those who don't want to watch the vid

We're suggesting that's a mistake, my friend. Borne out of using the same footage for each of the endings.

Everything else in that ending points to it not being destroyed, from the omission of an explosion shot after that one you've taken a picture of, to the Citadel not emitting a beam when the Catalyst says its the emission of the beam that will cause the destruction of the relays, to the very fact that the Citadel itself is so obviously not destroyed in this ending despite it itself being a gigantic mass relay.

It all fits. What's so hard to believe about it?

The thing that we can agree on is that BioWare made mistakes.

The thing we disagree on is that the "starchild's" dialogue AND the proof I just posted in response to your "I challenge you to find one single explosion" disproves your theory. There is no way BioWare intended for the relays to survive in the "blue" ending if...
A...we SEE them break apart like my image and vid post shows
B...the starchild says they will
C...and then have to assume that BioWare made some GLARING errors in the blue ending that would have to be screwups for your theory to have legs.

The thing they screwed up was not doing the endings like they promised. The fact that the blue ending relays come apart differently that the other endings proves they did it on purpose.
I am sorry, but it doesn't hold water. I do appreciate your good debate. So many others turn troll and rabid when someone disagrees with them. kudos.

[Oldbones2]

The Razman wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

"...Releasing the energy of the crucible will end the cycle, but it will also destroy the mass relays."

The Catalyst. Speaking in regards to Shepard's choices.

Relays go boom. Case closed.

Exactly. This is proof of what I'm saying.

The Citadel/Crucible does not release its energy in the Control ending. You very clearly see the arms of the Citadel closing, its beam is never released, and the Citadel is never destroyed.

In the other two endings, the Crucible does fire a beam at the relays ... destroying them. But not the Control ending.

If the energy wasn't released, then nothing would happen.  Regardless of what ending you choose the Relays ARE destroyed.

Why would that be? Sheperd is taking control of the Starchild's method of controlling all the Reapers in the galaxy, which he's been doing for millions of years without the Crucible's energy. Why would the Crucible be required to do that?

Because Reaper God Child says so.  He tells Shepard that adding the crucible has given him new possibilities.

Also assuming that Bioware made a mistake cannot constitue proof of a fans theory.

Don't get me wrong, it is very possible that the relays don't 'explode' in control, but the Reaper God Child never says they will.  He says they will be destroyed, not in reference to a specific choice, but in reference Shepard ending the cycle.

So blue ending = destruction of relays.

[AkiKishi]

Oldbones2 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

"...Releasing the energy of the crucible will end the cycle, but it will also destroy the mass relays."

The Catalyst. Speaking in regards to Shepard's choices.

Relays go boom. Case closed.

Exactly. This is proof of what I'm saying.

The Citadel/Crucible does not release its energy in the Control ending. You very clearly see the arms of the Citadel closing, its beam is never released, and the Citadel is never destroyed.

In the other two endings, the Crucible does fire a beam at the relays ... destroying them. But not the Control ending.

If the energy wasn't released, then nothing would happen.  Regardless of what ending you choose the Relays ARE destroyed.

It's dumb that you need to destroy the relays to do something that you were already doing. Of course it's also dumb that something requiring DNA means being atomised and that someone who needs synthetic parts to live can survive something that destroys synthetics.

[The Razman]

Oldbones2 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

"...Releasing the energy of the crucible will end the cycle, but it will also destroy the mass relays."

The Catalyst. Speaking in regards to Shepard's choices.

Relays go boom. Case closed.

Exactly. This is proof of what I'm saying.

The Citadel/Crucible does not release its energy in the Control ending. You very clearly see the arms of the Citadel closing, its beam is never released, and the Citadel is never destroyed.

In the other two endings, the Crucible does fire a beam at the relays ... destroying them. But not the Control ending.

If the energy wasn't released, then nothing would happen.  Regardless of what ending you choose the Relays ARE destroyed.

Why would that be? Sheperd is taking control of the Starchild's method of controlling all the Reapers in the galaxy, which he's been doing for millions of years without the Crucible's energy. Why would the Crucible be required to do that?

Because Reaper God Child says so.  He tells Shepard that adding the crucible has given him new possibilities.

Also assuming that Bioware made a mistake cannot constitue proof of a fans theory.

Don't get me wrong, it is very possible that the relays don't 'explode' in control, but the Reaper God Child never says they will.  He says they will be destroyed, not in reference to a specific choice, but in reference Shepard ending the cycle.

So blue ending = destruction of relays.

No, sorry ... it doesn't matter that the Crucible has "given new possibiltiies" ... he can already control the Reapers with his current capabilities, he tells us that. That's the whole idea, that Sheperd takes control of the Reapers using the same method of control the Catalyst uses.

So again ... Crucible not used (quite obviously, as we see the Citadel closing and not firing), Crucible energy not used, Catalyst says that Crucible energy is what destroys the relays ... ergo, relays are not destroyed. Hence why there's a very obvious omission of the explosion shot in the Control ending.

So again ... where exactly is the flaw in that logic?

Modifié par The Razman, 27 mars 2012 - 03:43 .

[Costin_Razvan]

What is the point of all of this? Is it to try to convince us that we were wrong and the endings are good and do live up to BioWare's promises? The fact is that the "blue" ending is just the "A" ending of the A,B,C endings were were told we WOULD NOT have and that our choices would matter. Yea, there is some SLIGHT variation in the A,B,C endings but NONE of our choices mattered.....THAT is the problem...that and the lore/plot holes.

Claiming all the Relays are destroyed in Control makes no sense when you have the Citadel surviving. It's something called Logic. There are differences between Control and Destroy/Synthesis in what happens to the Citadel and Relays.

Of course the words "Catalyst" and "Logic" should not go in the same sentence. The point isn't to say the endings are perfectly fine, because they are not, not by a longshot. The Illusive Man is very badly written in final confrontation as is the Catalyst. Synthesis makes no sense as whatsoever either.

The point is that the Relays are not destroyed in Control, that's it. Does that fix the other issues? No.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 27 mars 2012 - 03:49 .

[XTR3M3]

did you see my post above? it CLEARLY shows the relay coming apart. Does it show ALL relays including the citadel come apart...no...but the energy pulses on the galactic map are the same as the one where the vid I posted CLEARLY shows the relay start to come apart so it is very easy to assume those do as well. At best, it seems like the citadel is the only relay to survive in the blue ending....quite possibly because it was modified by the Protheans to not function as a relay which was what kept Sovereign from being able to use it to bring the rest of the reapers there in ME1.

It is hard to say. Obviously BioWare thought that a weird cerebral ending that deviated from the whole rest of the series was better than what they promised. Either way, we lose.

Modifié par XTR3M3, 27 mars 2012 - 03:56 .