156 réponses à ce sujet

[PsychoWARD23]

Yeah, she's got dat annoying plot armor.

[Han Shot First]

Golden Owl wrote...

It's a damned shame and very annoying that BW changed this aspect of the leaked script....Liara could originally die on Thessia, it should have stayed in....but I guess they didn't want anyone finally getting to get rid of their precious blue princess....<_<

Only one of your squadmates can potentially die in Mass Effect 3, so the argument that Liara's survivability is due to some sort of preferential treatment on the part of the writers simply doesn't hold water. Liara survives the series for the same reason that Vega or Javik survives: They weren't on the squad in Mass Effect 2. ME2 is the only game in the series where every character on the team is a potential casualty.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Han Shot First wrote...

They weren't on the squad in Mass Effect 2. ME2 is the only game in the series where every character on the team is a potential casualty.

Er, so? Neither were Wrex or the VS. And on that matter, Liara is in LotSB, so that assertion is not entirely accurate. She gets the most interaction, the most dialogue, three comics, a DLC, the most screentime of any squad member, cannot be hated (not something unique only to her, however), and cannot be killed. Saying that she doesn't get preferential treatment is, frankly, kind of outrageous.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 28 mars 2012 - 01:00 .

[Han Shot First]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

They weren't on the squad in Mass Effect 2. ME2 is the only game in the series where every character on the team is a potential casualty.

Er, so? Neither were Wrex or the VS. And on that matter, Liara is in LotSB, so that assertion is not entirely accurate. She gets the most interaction, the most dialogue, three comics, a DLC, the most screentime of any squad member, cannot be hated (not something unique only to her, however), and cannot be killed. Saying that she doesn't get preferential treatment is, frankly, kind of outrageous.

I don't read comics, so I can't really comment on those.

But considering she's only a squadmate in two games, compared to Garrus and Tali, who are potentially squadmates in all three, I think it is hard to argue that she has gotten more preferential treatment than everyone else on the squad. She has certainly gotten more content than the VS and Wrex, but less than Team Dextro.

For the record, I'm not complaing about that as I like both Garrus and Tali, and Garrus may be my favorite squadmate. I just think that the 'Liara gets preferential treatment' argument is as overblown and exaggerated as the BSN claim that 'Ashley is racist.'

[mybudgee]

I know Liara's kind of an attention ****. That's why I like her. ( I think ****s are hot)
oops... I meant 'attention glutton'

Modifié par mybudgee, 28 mars 2012 - 01:09 .

[Tonymac]

I like the Liara character. She ends up a true friend - and if you played through from ME1 you see her grow a lot as a friend and a person. This also applies as a love interest - its a good story, one I think the writers did a heck of a job with. I have not done an ME3 import with her as a LI all the way through from ME1. That will be next so I can see how good a job they did.

[da mighty rEAper]

stupid thread, lock pls?

[What a Succulent Ass]

Han Shot First wrote...

I don't read comics, so I can't really comment on those.

But considering she's only a squadmate in two games, compared to Garrus and Tali, who are potentially squadmates in all three, I think it is hard to argue that she has gotten more preferential treatment than everyone else on the squad. She has certainly gotten more content than the VS and Wrex, but less than Team Dextro.

For the record, I'm not complaing about that as I like both Garrus and Tali, and Garrus may be my favorite squadmate. I just think that the 'Liara gets preferential treatment' argument is as overblown and exaggerated as the BSN claim that 'Ashley is racist.'

I don't think so.

As a caveat, I love both Liara and Team Dextro (well, Tali; I kind of don't care about Garrus), but the way Liara is pushed down the player's throat in every medium far eclipses any extra screen time the Dextros have. This only increases in severity with each instalment to (I think) the detriment of her character. She starts out in ME1 as a socially retarded, not very interesting [her words, not mine!] plot device who mind rapes Shepard several times in the name of progression, becomes faint, and then instantly infatuated if Shepard so much as speaks at her. I would also argue she is the only squaddie with true plot significance in the game, but it still begs the question of why she is written in such a manner. One really wonders what a demure archaeologist with zero military experience is doing on a fireteam of hardened professionals (the only one who is less justified in being in a combat zone is Tali, whose inclusion, to this day, still confuses me).

If one did not play Mass Effect, the Genesis comic will literally go out of its way to iterate how beautiful and smart Liara is, and that that her mind rapes were almost pleasant. Then, in Redemption and its attendant stories, not only does Liara take centre stage again by being (basically) single-handedly responsible for Shepard's retrieval, she becomes some sort of sassy, streetsmart, rash, aggressive biotic badass who can one-shot whole mobs of mooks whilst providing lots of ****** and arse for everyone. In ME2, we find her once again integral to plot progression (if you want Thane and Samara, anyway), a cold, calculating, and somewhat distant (but wait! It's just an act!) information broker who, of course, will show her possibly unwanted (and possibly undeserved) affections for Shepard if pressed (and hell, even if not). We learn that instead of an obsession with the Shepard protheans, she has spent the last two years plotting revenge against one of the most powerful men in the galaxy. With or without Shepard's help, she exacts this revenge, usurping the Shadow Broker, killing him, and taking command of the most powerful information network in known existence...only to have it scuttled immediately to make way for her to have a place on your squad in the third game. In ME3, the forced plot relevancy is really more of the same, with the added bonus of more forced friendship. She, at least, is more convincingly characterised as more mature and responsible than her previous iterations.

Quite frankly, her status as plot clay is rivalled only by Cerberus. I know this will be immediately met with cries of "It's been years! People change!" and "Shepard's death was very traumatic for her!", but it's not her development (I would say Tali, Mordin, and and Wrex got the best of that) so much as it is that she was developed in a completely unbelievable manner (which is the product of being shoehorned into too many roles). When a character evolves realistically, we have to see both the catalyst of that evolution, its effect on him/her, and the outcome. With Liara, we are given the catalyst (possibly), but jump straight into the outcome, which spans about three different personalities. Seriously, she changes so quickly that I get whiplash every time I speak to her. She doesn't even look the same for very long. Play the games back to back (to say nothing of reading the comics) and it's quite difficult to believe it's even the same character--nearly none of her mannerisms, expressions, and demeanours are consistent. Like, at all. The only thing that remains constant is her interest in the protheans and her infatuation with Shepard. It makes her come off as slightly neurotic and unable to form healthy relationships (be they with people or subjects) without them becoming all-consuming. In short, it makes her seem like she developed a co-dependent obsessive personality disorder because of her lonely adolescence...which actually could have been very interesting if done well, but it's not.

...This is somewhat mitigated if Shepard romances her, seeing as how Mac Walters BioWare so clearly desperately wants Shepard to, but it isn't mitigated by much.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 28 mars 2012 - 02:19 .

[Legion64]

[Rogue Unit]

Legion64 wrote...

[What a Succulent Ass]

One of the most unintentionally LOLsome scenes in ME3 is after Shepard wakes up from her/his first nightmare. Not only is s/he fully dressed (combat boots and all), s/he opens the door to the cabin only to find Liara creeping just outside it.

Seriously, though. Most awkward scene ever.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 28 mars 2012 - 02:18 .

[NightAntilli]

I'm glad she couldn't die She's too awesome for death

[What a Succulent Ass]

Awesome enough to become the crew broodmother, apparently.

Death would be preferable.

[Tymvir]

Maybe they have plans to include her in future ME titles.

Modifié par Tymvir, 28 mars 2012 - 03:24 .

[Legion64]

Tymvir wrote...

Maybe they have plans to include her in future ME titles.

She is 1000 years old after all.

Haters gonna hate cuz she more important.

Modifié par Legion64, 28 mars 2012 - 03:27 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

I don't read comics, so I can't really comment on those.

But considering she's only a squadmate in two games, compared to Garrus and Tali, who are potentially squadmates in all three, I think it is hard to argue that she has gotten more preferential treatment than everyone else on the squad. She has certainly gotten more content than the VS and Wrex, but less than Team Dextro.

For the record, I'm not complaing about that as I like both Garrus and Tali, and Garrus may be my favorite squadmate. I just think that the 'Liara gets preferential treatment' argument is as overblown and exaggerated as the BSN claim that 'Ashley is racist.'

I don't think so.

As a caveat, I love both Liara and Team Dextro (well, Tali; I kind of don't care about Garrus), but the way Liara is pushed down the player's throat in every medium far eclipses any extra screen time the Dextros have. This only increases in severity with each instalment to (I think) the detriment of her character. She starts out in ME1 as a socially retarded, not very interesting [her words, not mine!] plot device who mind rapes Shepard several times in the name of progression, becomes faint, and then instantly infatuated if Shepard so much as speaks at her. I would also argue she is the only squaddie with true plot significance in the game, but it still begs the question of why she is written in such a manner. One really wonders what a demure archaeologist with zero military experience is doing on a fireteam of hardened professionals (the only one who is less justified in being in a combat zone is Tali, whose inclusion, to this day, still confuses me).

If one did not play Mass Effect, the Genesis comic will literally go out of its way to iterate how beautiful and smart Liara is, and that that her mind rapes were almost pleasant. Then, in Redemption and its attendant stories, not only does Liara take centre stage again by being (basically) single-handedly responsible for Shepard's retrieval, she becomes some sort of sassy, streetsmart, rash, aggressive biotic badass who can one-shot whole mobs of mooks whilst providing lots of ****** and arse for everyone. In ME2, we find her once again integral to plot progression (if you want Thane and Samara, anyway), a cold, calculating, and somewhat distant (but wait! It's just an act!) information broker who, of course, will show her possibly unwanted (and possibly undeserved) affections for Shepard if pressed (and hell, even if not). We learn that instead of an obsession with the Shepard protheans, she has spent the last two years plotting revenge against one of the most powerful men in the galaxy. With or without Shepard's help, she exacts this revenge, usurping the Shadow Broker, killing him, and taking command of the most powerful information network in known existence...only to have it scuttled immediately to make way for her to have a place on your squad in the third game. In ME3, the forced plot relevancy is really more of the same, with the added bonus of more forced friendship. She, at least, is more convincingly characterised as more mature and responsible than her previous iterations.

Quite frankly, her status as plot clay is rivalled only by Cerberus. I know this will be immediately met with cries of "It's been years! People change!" and "Shepard's death was very traumatic for her!", but it's not her development (I would say Tali, Mordin, and and Wrex got the best of that) so much as it is that she was developed in a completely unbelievable manner (which is the product of being shoehorned into too many roles). When a character evolves realistically, we have to see both the catalyst of that evolution, its effect on him/her, and the outcome. With Liara, we are given the catalyst (possibly), but jump straight into the outcome, which spans about three different personalities. Seriously, she changes so quickly that I get whiplash every time I speak to her. She doesn't even look the same for very long. Play the games back to back (to say nothing of reading the comics) and it's quite difficult to believe it's even the same character--nearly none of her mannerisms, expressions, and demeanours are consistent. Like, at all. The only thing that remains constant is her interest in the protheans and her infatuation with Shepard. It makes her come off as slightly neurotic and unable to form healthy relationships (be they with people or subjects) without them becoming all-consuming. In short, it makes her seem like she developed a co-dependent obsessive personality disorder because of her lonely adolescence...which actually could have been very interesting if done well, but it's not.

...This is somewhat mitigated if Shepard romances her, seeing as how Mac Walters BioWare so clearly desperately wants Shepard to, but it isn't mitigated by much.

Yeah... that about sums it up.

Edit: They did say in ME2 that, being an Admiral's daughter, Tali received the best military training the Migrant Fleet had to offer, though, so that's an out. Still doesn't explain how Liara goes from instinctively cowering on Therum to immediately being the gun-slinging, singularity-tossing "Now it gets fun!" badass seen from that point forward.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 28 mars 2012 - 03:36 .

[Han Shot First]

Random Jerkface wrote...

One of the most unintentionally LOLsome scenes in ME3 is after Shepard wakes up from her/his first nightmare. Not only is s/he fully dressed (combat boots and all), s/he opens the door to the cabin only to find Liara creeping just outside it.

Seriously, though. Most awkward scene ever.

Shepard being fully dressed actually makes sense in that scene. If you pay close attention, when he wakes up he puts down a datapad. Rather than taking the advice he was given and going right to bed, Shepard drifted off to sleep while working.

As for Liara's change from shy archaeologist to shadow broker...

The LotSB DLC partially grew out of fan complaints over Liara's reduced role in Mass Effect 2, so it is really more of a case of Bioware trying to please its fans (in the same way that Tali and Garrus were made romance options) than a case of her being the writing staff's darling. Of course whether or not a player approves of Liara going from shy archaeologist to badass information broker is a matter of personal taste. People are equally entitled to dislike the change, as like it.

I personally find her to be a more interesting character in LotSB and ME3 than in ME1, but that is just my opinion.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 28 mars 2012 - 03:43 .

[Hibernating]

jojimbo wrote...

Nepp wrote...

If the only asari Ardat-Yakshi was on that one planet(which I gathered you killed them all but for one), how did banshee's end up on the asari homeworld and earth?

Plothole???

Nah, its mentioned that people with the recessive Ardat-Yakshi gene can be turned into banshees too. So that includes people like Samara and whoever she mind melded with to have her children. While not being Ardat-Yakshi herself, she has the genes.

[What a Succulent Ass]

I know, Han, but it's still hilariously awkward. The whole thing just made me go DAFUQ? Especially her just being outside the door like a creepo when Shepard is supposed to be resting.

I blame that on poor direction, though.

DeinonSlayer wrote...


Yeah... that about sums it up.

Edit: They did say in ME2 that, being an Admiral's daughter, Tali received the best military training the Migrant Fleet had to offer, though, so that's an out. Still doesn't explain how Liara goes from instinctively cowering on Therum to immediately being the gun-slinging, singularity-tossing "Now it gets fun!" badass seen from that point forward.

Yeah, those are essentially my biggest gripes with her character. I like her, but I really abhor the blatant way she's shoehorned into everything without regard for her development. Not only is it patently unfair for the other characters, it doesn't do the writers' abilities justice. If you are going to construct a story based around a central personality, makes sure the events of the story conform to the personality, not the other way about. If the personality cannot conform, scrap the story or use a character that is more suited. The Lazarus Project plot is a perfect example of this. The entire concept was already patently ridiculous (resurrection from the dead, killing the protagonist and reviving her for the sole purpose of railroading), and it's not often that a story opens with a diabolus ex machina, but it makes absolutely zero sense that Liara was used. Seriously--she is told by a group of shadowy human supremacist/black-ops terrorists, who she and Shepard spent all of ME1 killing for their atrocities, that they will bring Shepard back to life, something that has never been accomplished in natural history. All they need is Shepard's body. It's not like they would do anything morally suspect with it or anything.

Makes her come off as either naive or idiotic...or unhealthily obsessed. The role would have been better suited to Miranda. It would add a more interesting dynamic to her character, and makes much more sense both logically and from a literary perspective. This would sacrifice the SB plot, but that could still be implemented.

Where did they say that about Tali? I suppose it makes sense. Still, having training is different from having field experience. And neither Tali nor Liara seem to have any problems with going from being a civilian to killing people on a regular basis.

[Han Shot First]

Speaking of mind-melding...

Anyone notice that Shepard is two for two in Asari he's melded with, wanting to get him in the sack? If you spare Shiala in ME1 she is very flirty with Shepard in ME2, and suggests hooking up after he's done doing Commander Shepard things. I guess it fast tracks the whole 'getting to know each other' preliminaries. On that note Shepard totally should have mind-melded with the Asari Councillor in Mass Effect 1. It might have saved the galaxy from this whole Reaper mess. 

[What a Succulent Ass]

Han Shot First wrote...

I personally find her to be a more interesting character in LotSB and ME3 than in ME1, but that is just my opinion.

I'd be inclined to agree...sort of. The problem is that the progression is unconvincing. As it is, she goes from a hurt/comfort anime girl stereotype to a badass comic book character stereotype. It's a bit better moderated in ME3, but still jarring as all get out.

As for LotSB being because of outcry, I'm not sure about that, seeing as how the vestiges of the beginning of the DLC were still in the game files upon shipment. If it was because of fans, then I posit that VS fans should have cried moar, because the increasing bowdlerisation of their characters (from obviously being intended to be central characters to being OOC and more or less interchangeable) is just sad.

...To say nothing of the poor, shafted ME2 characters.

[What a Succulent Ass]

jreezy wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

If one did not play Mass Effect, the Genesis comic will literally go out of its way to iterate how beautiful and smart Liara is, and that that her mind rapes were almost pleasant.

Mind rapes? Shepard agrees to her probing, whether accomodatingly or more reluctant.

Yeah, mind rapes. Dat sh*t is hella rapish, son. No lie.

Damn you, plot.