193 réponses à ce sujet

[Lughsan35]

EA just took possession of my house! OMG I never should have signed the EULA! ...........



KIDDING! ^^ If you believe this you need therapy...

[Jab0r]

The only thing they can do with that EULA is deny you service if you violate it.

Not using the online service because you don't want to accept the terms of service is pretty much the same end result as accepting them, violating them, and Bioware denying you service based on that.

My question, then, is why not just hit "accept"? It's not like you lose anything.

[Wolfva2]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Well, there is that one line about EA claiming your immortal soul for all of eternity or something like that.

Glad I'm an athiest then.  Which reminds me of an episode of 'Barney Miller' where one cop asks Dietrich, the athiest cop, what he will say if when he dies he discovers there really IS a god.  Answer?  "Oops."

The EULA is a contract.  Whether or not it is binding is inconsequential.  It is still something you are agreeing to do.  Now, if you are a complete paltroon who is without anything resembling honor, who thinks it's ok to break his word whenever it's convenient, well.  That's your problem.  Frankly, I feel sorry for your spouse since you probably cheat on your wedding vows with abandon (after all, they aren't binding either).  You probably lie to your friends all the time (your agreements with them aren't binding, like when you tell them you'll owe them one if they help cover up your latest affair).  You're probably the type of guy who promises his children nice Christmas gifts, then laaaugghhhsss at the look on the kids face when they see you got them new underwear.  Hey, if that's how you want to live your life, whatever.  Personally, I believe in honor.  I believe that my word, even in a 'nonbinding' contract, is still MY WORD and I will do what I can to abide by it.  Thus, I read the EULA.  As boring as it is.*



*disclaimer note: This post is directed at NO ONE IN PARTICULAR.  The 'you' is used in completely general terms and means no one specifically, living or dead, who posts or does not post on this forum.  The author takes NO responsibility for ANY offense anyone may feel when realizing that they are an inscrupulous SOB who thinks 'honor' means being on top of a woman. (it's a phonetic pun, sound it out).   If you find yourself offended, then maybe it's time to take stock in your life and make some changes.  Otherwise, cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.

[Kralon]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Well, there is that one line about EA claiming your immortal soul for all of eternity or something like that.

Glad I'm an athiest then.  Which reminds me of an episode of 'Barney Miller' where one cop asks Dietrich, the athiest cop, what he will say if when he dies he discovers there really IS a god.  Answer?  "Oops."

The EULA is a contract.  Whether or not it is binding is inconsequential.  It is still something you are agreeing to do.  Now, if you are a complete paltroon who is without anything resembling honor, who thinks it's ok to break his word whenever it's convenient, well.  That's your problem.  Frankly, I feel sorry for your spouse since you probably cheat on your wedding vows with abandon (after all, they aren't binding either).  You probably lie to your friends all the time (your agreements with them aren't binding, like when you tell them you'll owe them one if they help cover up your latest affair).  You're probably the type of guy who promises his children nice Christmas gifts, then laaaugghhhsss at the look on the kids face when they see you got them new underwear.  Hey, if that's how you want to live your life, whatever.  Personally, I believe in honor.  I believe that my word, even in a 'nonbinding' contract, is still MY WORD and I will do what I can to abide by it.  Thus, I read the EULA.  As boring as it is.*



*disclaimer note: This post is directed at NO ONE IN PARTICULAR.  The 'you' is used in completely general terms and means no one specifically, living or dead, who posts or does not post on this forum.  The author takes NO responsibility for ANY offense anyone may feel when realizing that they are an inscrupulous SOB who thinks 'honor' means being on top of a woman. (it's a phonetic pun, sound it out).   If you find yourself offended, then maybe it's time to take stock in your life and make some changes.  Otherwise, cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.

Just thought I'd point out one reason WHY EULAs are non-binding and have absolutely no chance of enforcement in court.

In the case of PC games, and console games for that matter now, you are not allowed to see the EULA until after you buy the game, open it up, install, and then hit play. So now the game is used, and in the case of PC games, non-returnable for refund.

So this means if you decide not to accept the EULA on a PC game, you do not get the game you paid for AND you don't get a refund ( unless you were smart enough to buy it with a credit card and do a charge back ).

In any case, you cannot enforce a "contract" that requires you to purchase the item BEFORE you see the terms of the "contract". Also, pushing a "button" on a computer screen does not give the same weight of authorization/acceptance as an actual signature, since there is no way for the company to 100% say in good faith that YOU hit that "accept" button.

Modifié par Kralon, 02 décembre 2009 - 06:33 .

[MachDelta]

While i'm on the side of EULA's suck and aren't enforceable, allow me to play devils advocate for a moment.

The argument about the EULA enforcing boils down to thus: You purchase a product that includes a box, a manual, and a CD. You do NOT purchase the software. The software is licensed to you under the terms of the EULA which are presented BEFORE the software is activated. Hence, the EULA is a legal contract and if you disagree with it you cannot install the software but you do get to keep your pretty box, manual and CD.



Bottom line is that EULA's are still a legal gray area and haven't been sufficiently tested. Some courts have said yes, they are enforceable, others have said no they are not. All depends on where you live and what court it's brought before.

[Kepha]

I actually think this was not the DA EULA that required acceptance, but the Privacy Policy for EA Accounts. Which means that you have to accept it if you want to continue using the online components of Dragon Age (tied to an EA Account). If you don't want to accept it, you can continue to play the game logged out.

But companies are usually pretty strict about requiring you to accept their EULA/TOS/Privacy Policies to use onlines Services as they are more vulnerable to hacking.

Modifié par Kepha, 02 décembre 2009 - 07:01 .

[Sloth Of Doom]

MachDelta wrote...

While i'm on the side of EULA's suck and aren't enforceable, allow me to play devils advocate for a moment.
The argument about the EULA enforcing boils down to thus: You purchase a product that includes a box, a manual, and a CD. You do NOT purchase the software. The software is licensed to you under the terms of the EULA which are presented BEFORE the software is activated. Hence, the EULA is a legal contract and if you disagree with it you cannot install the software but you do get to keep your pretty box, manual and CD.

Bottom line is that EULA's are still a legal gray area and haven't been sufficiently tested. Some courts have said yes, they are enforceable, others have said no they are not. All depends on where you live and what court it's brought before.

That arguement wont fly for PC games, the EULAs specifically cover the use of the software.  You don't only  buy the box and disk, it is implicit that you are paying for functioning software   using your arguement I could put a blank disc in a case and call it "OMG Amazing swordz and boobz 2" then when people tried to say they got ripped off I could say 'nope, you only bought the box and disk, no software.'

[Kaosgirl]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

DaeFaron wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

EULAs are pretty non-binding, kind of like those "swim at your own risk" signs and waivers that schools have parents sign for their kids going on field trips.

This.

it is always good to at least skim them. but overall most EULAs basically say "This is our game, you can play it but you can't steal it or steal parts of it.  if it breaks your computer it isnt our fault.  We have the right to change our game without consulting you."

That being said, i agree with the OP that having a new EULA that yu can't print to compare the old one is a little fishy.    What exactly have they changed in less than a month that needs an entirely new agreement?

Why do you wish to read the entire EULA anyway? It doesn't really force you into anything.

If you didn't read it then how do you know that?

Lack of enforcability, and the "expert" opinion of internet-lawyers who claim that digitally signed EULAs would not stand up as binding in court.  If you believe those things, it doesn't matter what the EULA actually says.  

It's different if you don't believe those claims, though.

[MachDelta]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...
That arguement wont fly for PC games, the EULAs specifically cover the use of the software.  You don't only  buy the box and disk, it is implicit that you are paying for functioning software   using your arguement I could put a blank disc in a case and call it "OMG Amazing swordz and boobz 2" then when people tried to say they got ripped off I could say 'nope, you only bought the box and disk, no software.'

I believe that would be covered under false advertising (what was on the box was not in the box) and not a EULA.
I think the hair we're trying to split here is that purcahsing the game box/cd/etc implies that it provides you access to the software (since you technicaly own the CD key and can resell or transfer it along with the physical media), but it has never actually implied that you own said software. Because if you owned it, it would be yours to profit from or disassemble or resell derivitive works from (etc etc), and EA wouldn't like that very much.

Necessary evil? Perhaps.

[Nessin]

EULA's are perfectly enforceable, as long as they don't violate rights granted to you through another source, which is generally what people have contended over in the past. In one of the other threads someone mentioned the collection and distribution of data bothered them, which is perfectly legal for them to do if you agree to the EULA. Of course, they could easily gather almost any amount of data they wanted from your account profile and whatever little application they decided to use to collect data from your system. But generally they can't release that without approval, but if you agree for them to release it through the EULA, you're f'd if you decide later on you don't want that released.

[lizardglenn]

The thing i found strange was the part that said the changes from the 16th Nov on something shoved in my face on the 2nd Dec

[Cheiron the Centaur]

I too have rejected the new agreement. I simply cannot agree with the amount and type of information they collect from my computer (ip address, mac address, installed software, and much more) and the amount of freedom they give themselves in what they do with that (like give it to 3rd parties for undefined purposes). I value my privacy, and do not see why EA would need all this information.

I had to disable to automatic login (in the DragonAge.ini) to be able to continue playing.

I could agree to them collecting my ip address/mac address solely for the purpose of verifying/validating the DLC I bought, but this user agreement gives them (and undefined 3rd parties) a lot more freedom with this data, which I simply cannot accept.

The one thing I am worried about, is my rights to my previously bought DLC, though.
When I bought my DLC (Warden's Keep), I accepted the online user agreements that were valid at that time. If at that time the user agreement would have contained the text that I see today, I would never have accepted it/bought the DLC. I also did not see a section of that previous user agreement that stated that they could revoke my rights to the DLC at will, or that they could change their user agreement at will. So as far as I'm concerned, I should still have all rights to my DLC under the old agreement. However, as it is now, if I should sometime be able to reinstall my DLC and connect online to validate it again, then I cannot do so without accepting the new license agreement. That is inacceptable! So they should either provide a way to validate the DLC without accepting the new agreement (and without them collecting all my data for undefined purposes), or they should give me my money back.

PS: I still have been unable to find a printable version (or PDF version) of this user agreement, so I can print it out and re-read it at leisure.

Modifié par Cheiron the Centaur, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:12 .

[Cheiron the Centaur]

lizardglenn wrote...

The thing i found strange was the part that said the changes from the 16th Nov on something shoved in my face on the 2nd Dec

Yes, that too. Which could mean that they've already been collecting all kinds of personal information on me and my system from November 16 onwards, and they only now inform me about it.

[Seifz]

This is my favorite part of the EULA. It's not in the Privacy Policy, but it's something that you must accept to play the game anyway.

In exchange for use of the Software, and to the extent that your contributions through use of the Software give rise to any copyright interest, you hereby grant EA an exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, fully transferable and sub-licensable worldwide right and license to use your contributions in any way and for any purpose in connection with the Software and related goods and services including the rights to reproduce, copy, adapt, modify, perform, display, publish, broadcast, transmit, or otherwise communicate to the public by any means whether now known or unknown and distribute your contributions without any further notice or compensation to you of any kind for the whole duration of protection granted to intellectual property rights by applicable laws and international conventions. You hereby waive any moral rights of paternity, publication, reputation, or attribution with respect to EA’s and other players’ use and enjoyment of such assets in connection with the Software and related goods and services under applicable law. The license grant to EA, and the above waiver of any applicable moral rights, survives any termination of this License.

I'm 100% certain that they couldn't enforce that clause anywhere in the US. So evil.

[MachDelta]

Have you read EA's privacy policy yet? It goes into greater detail about what is collected and how it is used (somewhat), and might offer some reassurance. I know The Borg EA is generally viewed as a big evil corporation, but honestly their privacy policy seems pretty decent for this day and age. IMO anyways.

[Cheiron the Centaur]

Thanks for that link, MachDelta. That looks a lot like part of the new user agreement (effective Nov 16) that we now see in DAO (though there are still several sections missing).

For what I am referring to, see for example section IV a ("What Types of Non-Personal Information Does EA Collect?") and V b ("EA will never share your personal information with third parties without your consent. We may, however, share non-personal data in the aggregate (in a form that does not personally identify you) with third parties.").

Given what EA consider "non-personal information" (according to IV a), I have absolutely no faith in that V b part!

Modifié par Cheiron the Centaur, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:33 .

[Leather_Rebel90]

How about you just hit ‘Accept’ like every other normal person in the world? For God’s sake it says right on the box that you may be prompted to accept an enclose license agreement!
I quote:
“Acceptance of end user license agreement required to play.”

Directly on the bottom left-hand side of the case. And guess what? If you actually read the original before you signed it, it warns you that it is subject to change. Shouldn't have signed the original then, right? It doesn't change the game in any way, shape, or form. Just hit accept and stop crying.

Can’t say they didn’t warn you. My god, what is it with you people? Are you not happy unless you have something to **** about? Walking, Romances, Graphics, and now even EULA’s which no normal person bothers to read?! What happened to forums being actually used to discuss and debate things actually relevant to your gaming experience? This forum has turned into one gigantic festival of QQ.

So what if they know what GPU or Audio drivers you're currently running? Or God Forbid they actually figure out what OS you're running! *GASP* This might actually be knowledge they need if you have a technical issue! Damn them!

Christ, this is like the people on the Diablo 3 forums who cry because they thought the game was too ‘bright.’ THERE’S GOING TO BE EITHER A GAMMA OR BRIGHTNESS SLIDER YOU MORONS! Why does the obvious escape so many people? I know I’m ranting but this is getting ridiculous.

Modifié par Leather_Rebel90, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:47 .

[Cheiron the Centaur]

Leather_Rebel90: unlike you, some people DO care about user agreements and about their privacy.

If you don't, if you don't even bother to read what this thread is about (no, it's NOT about the enclosed license agreement in the box!) and if you can't bring anything sensible to the table anyway (yes, you are ranting), then why reply at all? If you couldn't care less about which rights EA grant themselves with your personal data, then just move along.

Modifié par Cheiron the Centaur, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:53 .

[eifel_105]

Cheiron the Centaur wrote...

Thanks for that link, MachDelta. That looks a lot like part of the new user agreement (effective Nov 16) that we now see in DAO (though there are still several sections missing).

For what I am referring to, see for example section IV a ("What Types of Non-Personal Information Does EA Collect?") and V b ("EA will never share your personal information with third parties without your consent. We may, however, share non-personal data in the aggregate (in a form that does not personally identify you) with third parties.").

Given what EA consider "non-personal information" (according to IV a), I have absolutely no faith in that V b part!

Believe it or not this is something many sites do automatically, they collect data like page views, how many times a link is clicked, and collect cookies (the electronic kind). Non-personal information would exclude names, IP addresses, and other things that could be considered intrusive. Usually they define what nonpersonal means so they can cover their butts and reasure anyone who reads the EULA. I may be wrong as I'm not a legal expert but this has always been my understanding.

edit: I listed the wrong things for nonpersonal, oops. I meant things like addresses, phone numbers, and so on. As for the IP address, most online connections use random IP addresses so the one you have right now won't be the same the next time you connect. Sorry for the goof.

Modifié par eifel_105, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:57 .

[Cheiron the Centaur]

@eifel_105: except that in this case, EA clearly states

IV a. "What Types of Non-Personal Information Does EA Collect?

When you use EA online and mobile products and services or you play our games on your PC or console, we may collect certain non-personal demographic information including gender, zip code, information about your computer, hardware, software, platform, media, mobile device, mobile device ID, console ID, incident data, Internet Protocol (IP) address, network Media Access Control (MAC) address and connection."

So all this information (which I consider extremely personal) they categorize as "non-personal information" or information "that does not personally identify you"... and they grant themselves the right to share all this info with 3rd parties "in the aggregate".

[Edit] and in my country, with my provider, almost all connections have a fixed IP address, so your statement about them being random is untrue here.

Modifié par Cheiron the Centaur, 02 décembre 2009 - 09:05 .

[Leather_Rebel90]

Cheiron the Centaur wrote...

Leather_Rebel90: unlike you, some people DO care about user agreements and about their privacy.

If you don't, if you don't even bother to read what this thread is about (no, it's NOT about the enclosed license agreement in the box!) and if you can't bring anything sensible to the table anyway (yes, you are ranting), then why reply at all? If you couldn't care less about which rights EA grant themselves with your personal data, then just move along.

I'll repeat, when you signed the ORIGINAL EULA it clearly states that it's subject to change. Everyone was fine with it then, but now that's it changed people are upset. Makes no sense. Who cares if BioWare or EA accesses my computer IP? What are they going to do with it? Nothing. Give EA/BioWare a bit more credit than that. I highly doubt they're taking information with malicious intent.

Read my whole post before you comment on it.

[marshalleck]

click accept or don't, my god people

[Leather_Rebel90]

Cheiron the Centaur wrote...

@eifel_105: except that in this case, EA clearly states

IV a. "What Types of Non-Personal Information Does EA Collect?

When you use EA online and mobile products and services or you play our games on your PC or console, we may collect certain non-personal demographic information including gender, zip code, information about your computer, hardware, software, platform, media, mobile device, mobile device ID, console ID, incident data, Internet Protocol (IP) address, network Media Access Control (MAC) address and connection."

So all this information (which I consider extremely personal) they categorize as "non-personal information" or information "that does not personally identify you"... and they grant themselves the right to share all this info with 3rd parties "in the aggregate".

How is that extremely personal? They know you have a cell-phone? Oh god no! They know you have an external HD? Oh no! And have fun with my zipcode, 94533. 100 thousand+ other people share it with me.

Extremely personal information is actually diving into your computer and logging passwords for accounts which aren't relevant to EA. And they're not doing that.

[Leather_Rebel90]

marshalleck wrote...

click accept or don't, my god people

Thank you.