193 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

I wish I'd thought to ask the guy that had this sig I saw on another forum where he got it. In it, it listed your IP, and OS, right down to which Service Pack in Windows you were using. Seems there was other info too, but I can't recall. All collected from logging into a forum. Holy crap, maybe we should quit logging into forums, since they can collect all that data from simply logging in.

[fkirenicus]

r3voLoL wrote...

Then uninstall the game....

And while your at it, you should probablly unhook your ethernet cable from your PC... just to make sure.

As far as I know I don't have any other spyware on my computer than that from EA, so I don't think that will be necessary, thank you.

[Kralon]

MR-9 wrote...

The EULA is basically asking you, do you want to play our game by our rules? Click Yes/No. You click no, you don't get to play.

Yes, but see, in order to get to that EULA in order to accept or decline it, you have to purchase the game first and then open it for install. So if you decline it, you are entitled to your money back. Yet for some reason I highly doubt Bioware or EA will be jumping over hoops to refund someone if they say "I declined your EULA". And I do know for a fact here in California at least, NO contract or agreement is legally binding unless the contract was signed BEFORE money/services were exchanged. Full disclosure laws.

[SheffSteel]

I didn't accept the new terms.
I clicked "Cancel", which removed the window and behind it there was the login window. I clicked "Cancel" on that too, and tried to load the game, but both the earlier windows popped up again. So I tried again, a little faster, but not fast enough. Eventually I got the windows to go away and the game to load, but I'm afraid that I might have accidentally clicked on the "Accept" button, even though it was never my intention to agree to these new terms.

This serves as my notice to EA that I do not accept their new privacy policy, and that by accessing any personal or private data stored on my PC, EA accepts the terms of my privacy policy, available for inspection at any time by asking me politely. It is also subject to change without notice.

Modifié par SheffSteel, 02 décembre 2009 - 02:19 .

[fkirenicus]

Raziel317 wrote...

To be honest there is nothing EA can collect from your PC that fifty other pieces of software or your last 10 website visits hasn't already shared with the world. No matter what protection we put on our machines, companies will find ways of accessing it. The only way to make sure you don't loose any information is to not play any games, not use Windows and not have and internet connection.

If EA clearly can state what they mean by

"When you use EA online and mobile products and services or you play our
games on your PC or console, we may collect certain non-personal
demographic information including gender, zip code, information about
your computer, hardware, software, platform, media, mobile device,
mobile device ID, console ID, incident data, Internet Protocol (IP)
address, network Media Access Control (MAC) address and connection."

and why they need to access and collect this type of information in order to make DA:O a better game, I will gladly provide them with most of it. However, I fail to see why e.g. my gender in connection with the postal zip code  is "vital information".
I also fail to see how they can retrieve such information without logging my activities outside the game. And if they do so, I want to know what they are "monitoring".

Also, provided we're speaking about the same thing, why do they need to collect information on my media? What media? Are they collecting info on my music files? Pictures? Videos?
I sometimes hook my mobile up to the PC, and Windows recognizes it, so I guess Windows has stored info about it (as I've said, I'm not that much of a computer techie) - does EA retrieve that info from Windows also? And what the hell has that info to do with DA:O?

It's not that I don't want to provide necessary info for the service to run, but I cannot for my very life see why EA needs to collect info about me and my system outside the scope of the only EA application I have installed.

I don't give out system specs or information about what is installed or stored on my computer to others mindlessly, why should I have to do it to EA?

Modifié par fkirenicus, 02 décembre 2009 - 02:36 .

[Cheiron the Centaur]

@SheffSteel: I have found that at the moment, the only way to play the game without accepting the new terms, is to disable the automatic login and play offline (you can disable the automatic login in the DragonAge.ini file)

So until that time when my DLC decides that it absolutely needs a re-validation, I'm fine (I can play offline and not share any data with EA).

And I agree with Kralon that, if they change the EULA after I accepted it, and I don't accept the new version, then I should be able to return the product and get a refund. I currently have an issue open at support.ea.com for exactly that purpose for the DLC I purchased.

Modifié par Cheiron the Centaur, 02 décembre 2009 - 02:33 .

[SheffSteel]

They do not need that information, they want it. They want it because it has commercial value to them. They present you with a wall of text and a pair of buttons, one of which gives you access to the game, in order that they might have a case againsst anyone who disputes their right to extract commercial value from you for free.

[Matthew Young CT]

fkirenicus wrote...
Because I don't share that fascinating view some have about data storage and surveillance, that "if you don't break the law you have nothing to fear" ****. I grew up in a society where you were innocent until the opposite is proved, not guilty until you prove your innocence!

What does the law have to do with this? Eish. This is boring data about your pc specs, programs you have installed and stuff. Why on earth do you care if people know this?

I have no intention whatsoever to break the game security for personal gain, I would expect the same courtesy from EA concerning my privacy and rights as a customer that have no affiliation with EA other than that I've purchased a license to use their software.

That's why they're asking you.

Anything that can make DA:O better they can collect (as well as all information I agree to share), but my other interests and system settings they have no right to gather information on.

So tell it no. It's a bizzarre choice, but you can make it.

If I am to participate in a survey I want to do it of my own free will.

You are. That's why there's that accept/cancel thingy.

I am deeply concerned that EA gathers information about me and my system that has nothing to do with DA:O, or information I don't explicitly accept to share with them.

It has to do with games in general, and you did agree to share it with them. Or you didn't accept the EULA, and you didn't share it with them.

I don't want to be used as a metric by EA as to what kind of games they should make to earn more money.

You should. They're more likely to make games you like then. I also want TV companies to know what shows I like so they don't do things like cancel Firefly

I purchase the games I like, and EA has no business in gathering any information about what's on my computer other than that I've purchased a license from EA for.

This whole "business" thing is a bit silly. If you don't want them having the information don't give it to them. They do ask.

Also, if they don't use the info - why do they collect it?

I said I don't know of a use for such things. Doesn't mean there isn't one.

The main issue is that you're complaining about them wanting (you can turn them down) to collect information that hardly anyone would consider private. Seriously - why do you care if EA knows what programs are on your PC, its specs etc?

[mmmbeerz]

So I ended up saying screw it. You need it to be able to get the DLC anyway. I hadn't yet installed it, which makes the situation even more frustrating.



For those in this thread that think a EULA is not enforceable, you're wrong. This change has everything that they need to enforce it: offer (accept this or don't get access to our online functionality), consideration (you give up rights, you get access to stuff) and acceptance (pushing the accept button). In the United States, the E-SIGN law (and various state versions of the same) make it clear that digitally signing something does not make it any more or less enforceable.



EULAs and terms of service have been enforced against consumers. A good example is termination of accounts. However, they have also been used as a separate cause of action for trespass and computer fraud cases. There was also a case in which UPS enforced its online terms of service to limit a claim for damages resulting from shipping a high valued item that was above the maximum.



As for those of you that suggested that I need to accept the EULA to play because it said so on the box, a simple note: I did not complain about the original EULA. I complained about forcing me to accept a NEW one. Unilateral changes to a contract effectively mean that I have little or no say over the rights I may (or may not have had) when I first accepted.



Let me ask this of those of you who do not both to read the terms: what if the terms were changed to add a $5/month fee? Heck, a $1/month fee? Or what if it said, we're revoking all of your DLC rights because we meant to charge more for it and you give us the right to do so and in exchange we'll allow you to continue to use our online services?



The fact that few people are skeptical of EULAs means that companies will never change their practice.



All of that said, I have no problem with EULAs. I think that they are a perfectly fine way to structure the legal relationship. I understand EA's need to do so. But simply hitting "accept" because it pops up seems like a really bad idea.

[0zzy0sb]

Matthew Young CT wrote...
You guys are so paranoid. As if EA actually cares about you. They care about what their their customers' PC hardware is like, so they can design future games with that hardware in mind. They care about %s of people who purchase DLC in different areas with different pricing. They need to know what % of their customers have DX11 hardware, so they can decide when to make DX11 games. And so on.

Couldn't say it better myself. It boggles my mind that people tink these kind of informations could be used to harm them in anyway.

[fkirenicus]

Matthew Young CT wrote...
 Seriously - why do you care if EA knows what programs are on your PC, its specs etc?

Why do you care if someone you trust (or more likely trusted) retrieves your bank account number and code without your express consent, as long as they don't use that info to in fact empty your bank account? 
Hell yeah - isn't it just great that someone has collected info about you that you never intended to give them, because you never saw the need for them to know?

[dalver]

I have accepted, but I do NOT feel comfortable that my other unrelated (to games and EA in general) software makes a +1 in EA databases - that they share with other undisclosed 3-d parties for undisclosed purposes.



I think that the hardware and software that I use is highly personal information that should be an OPTIONAL CHOICE for me to share. Even more so as I see no reason for EA knowing, as an example: what word-processing software I use.



It's just uncomfortably invasive.

[Seifz]

Koralis wrote...

Seifz wrote...

This is my favorite part of the EULA. It's not in the Privacy Policy, but it's something that you must accept to play the game anyway.

In exchange for use of the Software, and to the extent that your contributions through use of the Software give rise to any copyright interest, you hereby grant EA an exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, fully transferable and sub-licensable worldwide right and license to use your contributions in any way and for any purpose in connection with the Software and related goods and services including the rights to reproduce, copy, adapt, modify, perform, display, publish, broadcast, transmit, or otherwise communicate to the public by any means whether now known or unknown and distribute your contributions without any further notice or compensation to you of any kind for the whole duration of protection granted to intellectual property rights by applicable laws and international conventions. You hereby waive any moral rights of paternity, publication, reputation, or attribution with respect to EA’s and other players’ use and enjoyment of such assets in connection with the Software and related goods and services under applicable law. The license grant to EA, and the above waiver of any applicable moral rights, survives any termination of this License.

I'm 100% certain that they couldn't enforce that clause anywhere in the US. So evil.

Ah,,, the clause which basically says that you don't own anything in conjunction with the program, whether that's postings here, or creating mods in the toolset.  Ie.  EA has the option to sell your work and you get nothing for it and can not deny them?

Sure, they MAY choose to compensate you, but they have no obligation to and have no bargaining power.

It's worse than that, though.  Not only are you signing over an exclusive, eternal copyright to EA for all works that you've already contributed, but you're also guaranteeing them that right for all works that you create in the future, and they get those rights automatically, even if you back out of the agreement.  For eternity!  That's not even closed to legal!

[Sorcy73]

I wonder how many of the people refusing to accept this new agreement can actually state specifically what has changed in it from the original that they already accepted? I'm just curious.



As to them taking all this information about your system and various things you use, they most likely use this for marketing purposes. To them it's good business sense. They can walk into a meeting and say 'Hey 85% of our users use this program, so you letting us use your software (or whatever) in conjunction with our new release will net you a profit of approx *insert obsene amount of money here*'.



I hate EULAs. I hate reading through them, but I do. I see more and more things added to them these days allowing more and more to be done with information they gleam from us while we play. At the end of the day though, if they DID start inserting stuff like 'you will pay us $5 monthly' or 'Your first born must become our office teaboy for free' then the uproar would be huge and they frankly would be much less likely to get away with it. Fact is what EA have in this EULA is pretty much standard for any game with an online component these days.

[Sylixe]

mmmbeerz wrote...

I don't tend to be in the habit of accepting unilateral changes to contracts. I'm also the guy that calls my credit card company to reject changes to terms too.

Let me know how that's coming along since basically they are the mafia and can change anything they want anytime they want and you have little recourse.  It's not like you can just not pay them back and everything will be alright.

[Alarna]

It's not legal in Germany and I think other countries have similar laws.



But it's kind of modern slavery, isn't it?

[cipher86]

I just hate how long the thing is. It seems anti-consumer.

[Matthew Young CT]

fkirenicus wrote...
Why do you care if someone you trust (or more likely trusted) retrieves your bank account number and code without your express consent, as long as they don't use that info to in fact empty your bank account? 

Why are you now talking about bank account details? The information
EA gathers is specified, and it doesn't include bank account details.

Hell yeah - isn't it just great that someone has collected info about you that you never intended to give them, because you never saw the need for them to know?

Right, a MAC address and bank account details are so similar.

So what's the piece of information you don't want EA having, and why do you care if they have it?

[purplesunset]

Koralis wrote...

Seifz wrote...

This is my favorite part of the EULA. It's not in the Privacy Policy, but it's something that you must accept to play the game anyway.



I'm 100% certain that they couldn't enforce that clause anywhere in the US. So evil.

Ah,,, the clause which basically says that you don't own anything in conjunction with the program, whether that's postings here, or creating mods in the toolset.  Ie.  EA has the option to sell your work and you get nothing for it and can not deny them?

Sure, they MAY choose to compensate you, but they have no obligation to and have no bargaining power.

I think the sheer bad publicity alone would prevent a company from profitting off user-created mods without permission or compensation. Unless, I am badly mistaken. 

This thread proves that software companies rely on ignorance of their customers. The savy people in this thread are viewed as a royal PITA, and I'm sure EA wishes they would go away.

EA says,  "Don't bother reading the wall of text, just click yes! You know you want to! We've got cookies inside !"

Modifié par purplesunset, 02 décembre 2009 - 03:15 .

[0zzy0sb]

fkirenicus wrote...

Matthew Young CT wrote...
 Seriously - why do you care if EA knows what programs are on your PC, its specs etc?

Why do you care if someone you trust (or more likely trusted) retrieves your bank account number and code without your express consent, as long as they don't use that info to in fact empty your bank account? 
Hell yeah - isn't it just great that someone has collected info about you that you never intended to give them, because you never saw the need for them to know?

Damn your craking me up. Do you realy believe what you are saying? you saying your IP/zipcode/hardware/software info is just as private as your bank account info? Mabe its because my english is not so good and im missing something in your post.   

[OTeez]

Personaly I would willing sell my soul ( if such a thing is even exists) to EA to play this game. Not really a big deal just a bunch of legal crap they are forced to put up. EA probaly doesnt really care if peeps refuse or accept just a dumb legal thing

[Matthew Young CT]

He'd probably freak if he found out how much information his browser gives every website he visits

[Seifz]

Sylixe wrote...

mmmbeerz wrote...

I don't tend to be in the habit of accepting unilateral changes to contracts. I'm also the guy that calls my credit card company to reject changes to terms too.

Let me know how that's coming along since basically they are the mafia and can change anything they want anytime they want and you have little recourse.  It's not like you can just not pay them back and everything will be alright.

No, but you can refuse the new terms and continue to use your card until its expiration date under the old terms, at which point your account is closed from further purchases and closed completely once you have paid your debt.  I did that just last week when my fixed 8.9% APR jumped up to a 19.9% variable APR even though I was in good standing and hadn't made any late payments, gone over the credit limit, etc.  Fortunately, my card is valid until 8/12, so I'll have the new consumer protection laws that go into effect this winter when I shop for a new card.

As far as I'm concerned, the original poster accepted the EULA when he purchased the game.  As long as he doesn't download any updates, he should be allowed to continue playing the game with the same rights and features under those terms, nevermind what EA/BioWare do to the EULA.  Period.

[Seifz]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

He'd probably freak if he found out how much information his browser gives every website he visits

Do you people really browse without Firefox + AdBlock + NoScript + cookies off by default?  Wow!

[mmmbeerz]

Sorcy73 wrote...

I wonder how many of the people refusing to accept this new agreement can actually state specifically what has changed in it from the original that they already accepted? I'm just curious.

I made this point on the first page. It's impossible to know what changes there are in the document. They offer no explanation of the changes. They did not provide it in amendment form. They just said, here are the new terms, accept or reject.

There is a cost for me to run redlines and discern whether I care to agree to the change.  This means that it seems like the rationale choice is not to merely accept, but to reject and keep the old terms.