244 réponses à ce sujet

[Cazlee]

IT theory leaves no way to disprove it because "it was all a dream." How can you disprove a dream?

Unschuld wrote...

  

Are we allowing dreams into evidence now? How can I defend my innocence against this kind of testimony...

The biggest problem with the hallucination theory is that it results in a lose/lose/lose scenario. If Shepard is unconscious in London and only dreaming about being on the citadel, this means that when he wakes up the reapers are not destroyed. The reapers are still harvesting earth, the citadel arms are still not unfolded, and the crucible weapon is still not activated. Assuming the hallucination theory is true, choosing the destroy option ensures that Shepard stays alive, but it accomplishes no more for Earth than synthesis or control options assuming both of them end in indoctrination and death. Do you think Bioware intended to end their franchise with the reaper threat not taken care of?

Having the blue and green paths lead to indoctrination is an intriguing concept, but if that were the case the game would have strongly hinted at indoctrination in those two endings. Additionally, since the green path only opens with high EMS it doesn't quite make sense for all of our "extra" hard work to be  rewarded with yet another indoctrination ending (besides the blue ending assuming the indoc theory is true). I feel like most of the reasons to support the theory are really stretching the facts or they are assumptions.  If you agree with the indoc theory, then the below information will probably just annoy you. I've updated it a little to make it less annoying for you. You can dispute it, or instead, if you want, post the one evidence from the theory that makes you believe in it.

Here are reasons I trust that Shepard is not indoctrinated:

• The proof that the 'starchild' is telling the truth is that all of the ending choices do exactly what starchild says they will. The grandfather scene shows up for all three endings and reveals that *humans* are alive and living in peace in the future.

[*]The proof that Shepard is not indoctrinated is that the prothean AI does not detect indoctrination in her, and because she is able to open the citadel, the necessary and final step in order to activate the crucible. That is the ultimate test  that TIM fails. (neutral option - TIM literally cannot complete the final step, and this is how he realises he is indoctrinated.) [The Prothean VI states "We were sabotaged from within. A splinter group argued we should
dominate the Reapers rather than destroy them. It fractured our order of battle. Later, we discovered the separatists were indoctrinated." There is no evidence to believe his detection system is imperfect. Refuted: Shepard does not fully become indoctrinated unless she choses the control or synthesis ending.

• Whenever Shepard is being controlled there are wavy lines in her vision. (Like when she is forced to shoot Anderston). The wavy lines are gone completely when TIM dies.
• If Shepard were truly indoctrinated, she would not be able to destroy the reapers (in the same way TIM could not interact with the citadel control panel). Because the red (destroy) option exists is again proof that she is not indoctrinated. Refuted: Shepard does not fully become indoctrinated unless she choses the control or synthesis ending.
   

~This post has been heavily modified~

Modifié par Cazlee, 28 mars 2012 - 12:46 .

[Foulpancake]

lolwut?

[thrawn8586]

You should read the IT mega thread since most of these arguments are refuted in that thread. Not going for it or anything, just that these arguments have been presented and refuted many times already.

[lookingglassmind]

Lol.

Inb4 people with sense tell you to read the original IDT thread, page one.

Lol.

[Epic_Lulz]

"The
proof that the 'starchild' is telling the truth is that all of the
ending choices do exactly what starchild says they will. "

Do you understand the indoctrination theory? It implies that most of this happened in Shepard's mind

"The proof
that Shepard is not indoctrinated is that the prothean AI does not
detect indoctrination in her"

Already been answered countless times. First of all, the Protheans had an imperfect way of detecting indoctrination, plus Shepard probably wasn't indoctrinated too much by then

"Whenever Shepard is being controlled there are wavy lines in her vision. The wavy lines are gone completely when TIM dies."

K?

I don't really think you understand what the theory is really saying...

[cndman]

no more bumping. end of line

[balance5050]

Yet another person trying to disprove I.T. without doing their research.

[MrDudley]

Starchild is full of poop. It's a machine taking form of a non-threatening kid to save itself.

No predatory machine that exists only to kill and live would let itself die like that. Starchild is a machine, not an ascendent ethereal lifeform. It refers to itself as a machine.

STARCHILD... SHOW YOUR TRUE FACE! YOU HIDEOUS SUPER ROBOT! SHOW YOURSELF!

[spacefiddle]

Cazlee wrote...

This is why the theory is false:

-The proof that the 'starchild' is telling the truth is that all of the ending choices do exactly what starchild says they will.

The proof that there is no illusion is that you are seeing exactly what I am telling you to see!

You may wanna think that one over there a bit

[Cheezer]

Not saying this disproves your disprovement of the indoctrination theory, but you kinda have to understand what you're going up against here:
Prothean VI's weren't perfect, they can't accurately detect indoctrination or indoctrination wouldn't be an issue.
Second: The indoctrination theororists believe that the final scenes up in the citadel aren't really happening, so shepard opening the arms has nothing to do with him being indoctrinated or not, as it is all in his mind, like inception.

Just understand what you're trying to disprove before launching...

[usmack5]

Actually, if you choose the "destroy" option with enough war assets, it shows Shepard taking a breath after the credits. The star child said that all synthetics, including you because you have synthetic parts, would die if you chose that option. Therefore, it was either lying or did not understand the ramifications of the activation of the Crucible. I don't know which would make less sense. It all makes sense if you go along with the IT, though.

[Turkeysock]

Before I start, not exactly a Indoc theory enthusiasts, but just want to point out some things:

Cazlee wrote...
-The proof that the 'starchild' is telling the truth is that all of the ending choices do exactly what starchild says they will.

Even if it's indoc theory, or a dream, of course whatever the starchild will tell him will do exactly as he says it, doesn't really prove or disprove anything.

Cazlee wrote...
-The proof that Shepard is not indoctrinated is that the prothean AI does not detect indoctrination in her, and because she is able to open the citadel, the necessary and final step in order to activate the crucible. That is the ultimate test that TIM fails. (neutral option - TIM literally cannot complete the final step, and this is how he realises he is indoctrinated.)

The Prothean VI's aren't fool proof. They couldn't detect the subtle indoctrination of the Prothean group whom, like TIM, advocated to control the Reapers rather then destroy them. Subtle indoctrination is impossible to detect until it's too late. We know TIM fails, but there is another problem, we don't know if Shepard succeeded either.

Cazlee wrote...
-If Shepard were truly indoctrinated, she would not be able to destroy the reapers (in the same way TIM could not interact with the citadel control panel). Because the red (destroy) option exists is again proof that she is not indoctrinated.

Reverse psychology. Present the option that your target is most likely to do, but then add in some consequences that would make that option less viable, IE the destruction of every synthetic beings (according to it, that would mean EDI and the Geth go bye bye).

Cazlee wrote...
If the blue and green endings are paths to indoctrination, there would be evidence for it in the two end scenes.

Plenty of evidence has been presented for both sides.

Cazlee wrote...
TLDR: There are several tests for indoctrination throughout the game and Shepard is clear each time. The ultimate and final test is whether she is able to open the arms of the citadel to receive the crucible. TIM fails, she passes.

Why would TIM want to open the arms for the Crucible. He thinks the Crucible will destroy the Reapers, hence he doesn't open the arms to the Citadel.

Modifié par Turkeysock, 27 mars 2012 - 06:28 .

[wheelierdan]

im glad more people have stepped up to the craziness of indoctrination theory. join us.

http://social.biowar...ndex/10676720/1

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

Cazlee wrote...

This is why the theory is false:

-The proof that the 'starchild' is telling the truth is that all of the ending choices do exactly what starchild says they will.
-The proof that Shepard is not indoctrinated is that the prothean AI does not detect indoctrination in her, and because she is able to open the citadel, the necessary and final step in order to activate the crucible. That is the ultimate test  that TIM fails. (neutral option - TIM literally cannot complete the final step, and this is how he realises he is indoctrinated.)
-Whenever Shepard is being controlled there are wavy lines in her vision. The wavy lines are gone completely when TIM dies.
-If Shepard were truly indoctrinated, she would not be able to destroy the reapers (in the same way TIM could not interact with the citadel control panel). Because the red (destroy) option exists is again proof that she is not indoctrinated.


If the blue and green endings are paths to indoctrination, there would be evidence for it in the two end scenes.

-Because that is projected in Shepard's mind
-The VI's can only detect fully indoctrinated pressences, because you are undergoing indoctrination does not mean you are indoctrinated.
-I never noticed any wavy lines:huh:
-Again, they are trying to indocrinate shepard, hense why shepard has the destoy choice, shepard is not yet fully indoctrinated as you think he is.

[cndman]

The fact that OP hasnt replied makes me think this is a troll. let the thread die

[exiled warlord]

Theory on if the game ends this way or that matters not to me, the fact of the matter is the game gets shut down or put on MP right after the space battle above Earth. I would rather not play the last of the game then have to see that ending again.

[Cazlee]

IT theory leaves no way to disprove it because "it was all a dream." How can you disprove a dream?

Can someone answer this?

[Turkeysock]

Cazlee wrote...

IT theory leaves no way to disprove it because "it was all a dream." How can you disprove a dream?

Can someone answer this?

In truth, no theory can truly be proven or disproven at the moment. It won't be until Bioware actually comes out and says something.

[DJBare]

Grayson: I am magnificent, of course Kahlee will want to see me, look what I have become, she will look at me in awe.
Read retribution, Grayson is battling indoctrination, but he is aware of it because he was awake when they forced the goo inside him via a tube.

For those not aware, indoctrination is insideous, they believe the thoughts they have to be their own thoughts, it can also create illusions, pick red, green, or blue, do you know whether they are illusions?, do you know the starchild is speaking the truth, or is that the indoctrination?, the word "insideous" in this case means you cannot even place trust in your own thoughts.

Modifié par DJBare, 27 mars 2012 - 06:41 .

[XRelakX]

You guys are all wrong.Shepard was indoctrinated as soon ME2 started and the collectors ship attacked the normandy.You guys need to be faster lol.

[Epic_Lulz]

Cazlee wrote...

IT theory leaves no way to disprove it because "it was all a dream." How can you disprove a dream?

Can someone answer this?

I see where you're coming from (religious people like to use this), but the burden of proof is on the people who believe in the indoc theory

So far, there hasn't really been any evidence (just pointing out oddities isn't evidence, although it makes the theory seem possible) and until Bioware announces anything it'll still just be speculation

[J717]

The endings as they are leaves no way to prove or disprove them because it was all part of a thousand massive plot holes. How can you disprove the nonsensical?

See what I did there?

[CombustiblePanda]

Apparently if you don't believe in the theory then you're either stupid or a troll.

That's not a good message to be spreading.

[FemmeShep]

I thought Indoc was fan speculation as well.

But the thing that bothers me is, why doesn't BioWare just confirm the ending we got, was reality and not a hallucination? If they are standing by their ending (as they have put it), then why not just say the Star Child **** was the actual ending, and not the Indoc.

Unless...Indoc is real, and they don't want to spoil the twist. I even pressed the @masseffect account on this. Why not just stand by your ending, and say Indoc isn't real, if it's not real? You do know you have a lot fans religiously believing Indoc is real. You are just going to upset them even more if it comes out it's not true. Might as well let them down gently...

And the account played all coy with me and ****. Doesn't make sense. Personally, I see no reason for them not to confirm it's false, if it was false. But if it's true, then they have a reason to not say anything.

EDIT: I Didn't take into account that the people running @masseffect are probably interns, and don't have knowledge that the DEVS would have. 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 27 mars 2012 - 06:53 .