244 réponses à ce sujet

[Evenjelith]

Cazlee wrote...

IT theory leaves no way to disprove it because "it was all a dream." How can you disprove a dream?

Can someone answer this?

We don't need to prove/disprove anything.

It's advocated as a plausible theory NOT a fact. We'll know one way or the other in the coming months when Bioware make a statement/release DLC. The litmus test for a theory is not that it must be disprovable.

[MrDudley]

Shepard got mindjacked by the Illusive Man. The Prothean VI wasn't there when it happened and Shepard didn't access it again.

Illusive Man was basically a Reaper in that form and his human-reaper technobiology probably gave him what the Reapers lacked to crack Shepard.

The Reapers were already in the Illusive Man's mind and through his mind's connection to Shepard they could piggyback in to Shepard's mind.

[Cazlee]

Turkeysock wrote...
The Prothean VI's aren't fool proof. They couldn't detect the subtle indoctrination of the Prothean group whom, like TIM, advocated to control the Reapers rather then destroy them. Subtle indoctrination is impossible to detect until it's too late. We know TIM fails, but there is another problem, we don't know if Shepard succeeded either.

You state that as fact. Yet it could also be the case that the protheans added detection system after they learned that some of their collegues were indoctrinated and researched their bodies.

Turkeysock wrote...
Reverse psychology. Present the option that your target is most likely to do, but then add in some consequences that would make that option less viable, IE the destruction of every synthetic beings (according to it, that would mean EDI and the Geth go bye bye).

It's not reverse psychology when not all Shepards like or trust the geth or EDI.

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...
If the blue and green endings are paths to indoctrination, there would be evidence for it in the two end scenes.

Plenty of evidence has been presented for both sides.

OK, I would like to hear more about this...

Turkeysock wrote...
Why would TIM want to open the arms for the Crucible. He thinks the Crucible will destroy the Reapers, hence he doesn't open the arms to the Citadel.

Because he knows the crucible is the way to control the reapers.

[Epic_Lulz]

CombustiblePanda wrote...

Apparently if you don't believe in the theory then you're either stupid or a troll.

That's not a good message to be spreading.

No, but not bothering to research it and posting stuff that's been answered over 9000 times is stupid

Which is 95% of the people trying to disprove the theory

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

CombustiblePanda wrote...

Apparently if you don't believe in the theory then you're either stupid or a troll.

That's not a good message to be spreading.

Funny, I can not seem to think of a particular group on the BSN that trolled people and called them stupid ALL OF THE TIME, if they did not think the ending was bad.

humph.

[Trikormadenadon]

Cazlee wrote...

IT theory leaves no way to disprove it because "it was all a dream." How can you disprove a dream?

Here are reasons for believing that Shepard is not indoctrinated:

-The proof that the 'starchild' is telling the truth is that all of the ending choices do exactly what starchild says they will.
-The proof that Shepard is not indoctrinated is that the prothean AI does not detect indoctrination in her, and because she is able to open the citadel, the necessary and final step in order to activate the crucible. That is the ultimate test  that TIM fails. (neutral option - TIM literally cannot complete the final step, and this is how he realises he is indoctrinated.)
-Whenever Shepard is being controlled there are wavy lines in her vision. The wavy lines are gone completely when TIM dies.
-If Shepard were truly indoctrinated, she would not be able to destroy the reapers (in the same way TIM could not interact with the citadel control panel). Because the red (destroy) option exists is again proof that she is not indoctrinated.


If the blue and green endings are paths to indoctrination, there would be evidence for it in the two end scenes.

Indoctrination Theory suggests the reapers are trying to indoctrinate Shepard (and the ending is the visual representation of such to the players as a conflict going on in Shepards mind), not that he already is indoctrinated, therefore all of your arguments are irrelevant.

[Turkeysock]

FemmeShep wrote...

I thought Indoc was fan speculation as well.

But the thing that bothers me is, why doesn't BioWare just confirm the ending we got, was reality and not a hallucination? If they are standing by their ending (as they have put it), then why not just say the Star Child **** was the actual ending, and not the Indoc.

Unless...Indoc is real, and they don't want to spoil the twist. I even pressed the @masseffect account on this. Why not just stand by your ending, and say Indoc isn't real, if it's not real? You do know you have a lot fans religiously believing Indoc is real. You are just going to upset them even more if it comes out it's not true. Might as well let them down gently...

And the account played all coy with me and ****. Doesn't make sense. Personally, I see no reason for them not to confirm it's false, if it was false. But if it's true, then they have a reason to not say anything.

Just want to start, love your avatar Femme, I'm horrible at making a custom Shep, male or female.

And to the point, the people who answer on the @masseffect are probably interns most of the time. My sister worked for Geico for the summer as a intern, and she was telling me that the people who answer most of the twitter/facebook/myspace stuff are interns, with managers who occassionally actually do say something on there.

In truth, from watching/reading the interviews of the before and after release, I've come to the conclusion that this is either a brilliant PR stunt to grab as much attention as possible, or they just had no idea how to actually end the game where it was satisfying for them.

[KaeserZen]

Cazlee wrote...

-The proof that the 'starchild' is telling the truth is that all of the ending choices do exactly what starchild says they will.

No, in the destroy ending I got, my Shepard lives, even though the godbrat told me he would die.

Also, the best "physical" evidence I found on these boards that would support the theory is that the foilage texture you find on the jungle planet where the Normandy crashes appears to have got a name that starts with "DREAM_".

I haven't yet searched for the texture in the game files though, so it would need some verfication.

[snfonseka]

I don't believe in that theory 100% but at least do some reading regarding the theory before posting this, OP.

Cazlee wrote...

-The proof that the 'starchild' is telling
the truth is that all of the ending choices do exactly what starchild
says they will.

He said mass relays will be distroyed in "green ending". But that happend in every ending.

Modifié par snfonseka, 27 mars 2012 - 06:55 .

[FemmeShep]

Turkeysock wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

I thought Indoc was fan speculation as well.

But the thing that bothers me is, why doesn't BioWare just confirm the ending we got, was reality and not a hallucination? If they are standing by their ending (as they have put it), then why not just say the Star Child **** was the actual ending, and not the Indoc.

Unless...Indoc is real, and they don't want to spoil the twist. I even pressed the @masseffect account on this. Why not just stand by your ending, and say Indoc isn't real, if it's not real? You do know you have a lot fans religiously believing Indoc is real. You are just going to upset them even more if it comes out it's not true. Might as well let them down gently...

And the account played all coy with me and ****. Doesn't make sense. Personally, I see no reason for them not to confirm it's false, if it was false. But if it's true, then they have a reason to not say anything.

Just want to start, love your avatar Femme, I'm horrible at making a custom Shep, male or female.

And to the point, the people who answer on the @masseffect are probably interns most of the time. My sister worked for Geico for the summer as a intern, and she was telling me that the people who answer most of the twitter/facebook/myspace stuff are interns, with managers who occassionally actually do say something on there.

In truth, from watching/reading the interviews of the before and after release, I've come to the conclusion that this is either a brilliant PR stunt to grab as much attention as possible, or they just had no idea how to actually end the game where it was satisfying for them.

Thanks for clarifying that. That makes sense in regards to the people running the twitter. 

I still have to wonder why BioWare writers haven't come out said anything. But then again, I guess they haven't really done interviews where they could be asked. They just make press statements. 

I also agree, based on how they writers have acted (being upset at the reaction, defending their ending) and what PW said, I do believe the ending was just that, an ending that favored symbolism over continutity and reality. And it fell flat. 

[Geckostu]

wheelierdan wrote...

im glad more people have stepped up to the craziness of indoctrination theory. join us.

http://social.biowar...ndex/10676720/1

The op's arguments are not really thought through.

But that is much much better to show the stupidity and craziness of the IT

[Cazlee]

KaeserZen wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

-The proof that the 'starchild' is telling the truth is that all of the ending choices do exactly what starchild says they will.

No, in the destroy ending I got, my Shepard lives, even though the godbrat told me he would die.

Also, the best "physical" evidence I found on these boards that would support the theory is that the foilage texture you find on the jungle planet where the Normandy crashes appears to have got a name that starts with "DREAM_".

I haven't yet searched for the texture in the game files though, so it would need some verfication.

The child presents the red option first and only clearly states that Shepard will die in the blue option. 

[Epic_Lulz]

Cazlee wrote...

KaeserZen wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

-The proof that the 'starchild' is telling the truth is that all of the ending choices do exactly what starchild says they will.

No, in the destroy ending I got, my Shepard lives, even though the godbrat told me he would die.

Also, the best "physical" evidence I found on these boards that would support the theory is that the foilage texture you find on the jungle planet where the Normandy crashes appears to have got a name that starts with "DREAM_".

I haven't yet searched for the texture in the game files though, so it would need some verfication.

The child presents the red option first and only clearly states that Shepard will die in the blue option. 

No, he clearly states that in all options Shep will die

[Cazlee]

Cheezer wrote...

Prothean VI's weren't perfect, they can't accurately detect indoctrination or indoctrination wouldn't be an issue.

Just understand what you're trying to disprove before launching...

This is a problem with the theory and its proof, there are so many assumptions stated as facts. 

[Turkeysock]

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
The Prothean VI's aren't fool proof. They couldn't detect the subtle indoctrination of the Prothean group whom, like TIM, advocated to control the Reapers rather then destroy them. Subtle indoctrination is impossible to detect until it's too late. We know TIM fails, but there is another problem, we don't know if Shepard succeeded either.

You state that as fact. Yet it could also be the case that the protheans added detection system after they learned that some of their collegues were indoctrinated and researched their bodies.

It's fact. The VI admits that when it talks about why the crucible project in the Prothean cycle failed. Plus, I doubt they were able to conduct any research on their bodies as the VI was involved with said project, which was overthrown by the indoctrinated, so there was no one to upgrade his systems after being hidden on Thessia.

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
Reverse psychology. Present the option that your target is most likely to do, but then add in some consequences that would make that option less viable, IE the destruction of every synthetic beings (according to it, that would mean EDI and the Geth go bye bye).

It's not reverse psychology when not all Shepards like or trust the geth or EDI.

That actually doesn't matter. Because if EDI and the Geth are included, you could easily see the possibility that all VI's would also be affected by this. And VI's are integral part of the Alliance fleets, don't know about the other races ships, but the Alliance would be ****ed without them.

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...
If the blue and green endings are paths to indoctrination, there would be evidence for it in the two end scenes.

Plenty of evidence has been presented for both sides.

OK, I would like to hear more about this...

Go look at any indoc theory page. You'll get loads of info from both sides.

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
Why would TIM want to open the arms for the Crucible. He thinks the Crucible will destroy the Reapers, hence he doesn't open the arms to the Citadel.

Because he knows the crucible is the way to control the reapers.

TIM doesn't appear to know much then. Why then run to the Citadel and inform the Reapers? Why not just take a small task force (there are obviously many Cerberus cells still around even after the fall of his main base) and just lie in wait? Plus, he obviously tried to control the Reapers before the Crucible docked, because the Crucible didn't dock until AFTER Shepard opened the arms of the Citadel, which was either after TIM commited suicide or you shot him.

[Epic_Lulz]

Cazlee wrote...

Cheezer wrote...

Prothean VI's weren't perfect, they can't accurately detect indoctrination or indoctrination wouldn't be an issue.

Just understand what you're trying to disprove before launching...

This is a problem with the theory and its proof, there are so many assumptions stated as facts. 

No, it's not

Most of the threads and videos say things under the assumption that Indoc Theory is correct; they don't outright say it's right because they don't know either

[Cazlee]

Epic_Lulz wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

KaeserZen wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

-The proof that the 'starchild' is telling the truth is that all of the ending choices do exactly what starchild says they will.

No, in the destroy ending I got, my Shepard lives, even though the godbrat told me he would die.

Also, the best "physical" evidence I found on these boards that would support the theory is that the foilage texture you find on the jungle planet where the Normandy crashes appears to have got a name that starts with "DREAM_".

I haven't yet searched for the texture in the game files though, so it would need some verfication.

The child presents the red option first and only clearly states that Shepard will die in the blue option. 

No, he clearly states that in all options Shep will die

I reviewed the entire dialogue and he does not... which line are you referring to? The "even you are party synthetic" line?

[joiushdfoubsndpovn]

I find it funny when people seem to have a personal vendetta against IT...

And then don't listen to the obvious answers that have been stated OVER and OVER again on, not only numerous threads, but all questions and answers seem to be consolidated on the main thread....

Yet, they make new threads to "prove" it wrong with the same old refuted "facts" and then don't listen to the simple answers...

[FemmeShep]

joiushdfoubsndpovn wrote...

I find it funny when people seem to have a personal vendetta against IT...

And then don't listen to the obvious answers that have been stated OVER and OVER again on, not only numerous threads, but all questions and answers seem to be consolidated on the main thread....

Yet, they make new threads to "prove" it wrong with the same old refuted "facts" and then don't listen to the simple answers...

I think it's because IT fans are increasingly getting more pushy with it. I've seen so many people say: IT is real. And if you don't see it, you aren't smart enough to get it.

It's also annoying, because a lot of IT people accept it as fact already (not theory) and go on rants about how BioWare have outdone themselves, and are geniuses. 

[Turkeysock]

joiushdfoubsndpovn wrote...

I find it funny when people seem to have a personal vendetta against IT...

And then don't listen to the obvious answers that have been stated OVER and OVER again on, not only numerous threads, but all questions and answers seem to be consolidated on the main thread....

Yet, they make new threads to "prove" it wrong with the same old refuted "facts" and then don't listen to the simple answers...

I don't mind folks believing in what they think when things are up in the air like this. The writers could take this any way they want to, thus no one can be proved or disproved till this happens.

What annoys me is how rabid some people are about this. I've seen folks bite each other heads off over differing opinions of which theory is the "right" one. I've even seen folks from the same theory go ballastic because of one person not accepting certain things as "part" of the theory.

And that doesn't just go for the indoc theory people, every theory out there has these rabid supporters. We need to just accept that the other person isn't going to believe and move on.

But friendly debating is always good;).

[rexx1888]

all of your proof occurs AFTER its established that it is a dream(if indoc is correct). if you want to prove its wrong, and for the love of god this goes for all anti indoc people, you NEED to find proof that occurs pre cerberus base. i say pre cerberus because that is where you are put when the save boots you back for dlc. that is also the most effective place to clean the ending as the citadel wont be off screened, its just cleaner. So lets see some evidence from before then, because the indoc theory has evidence supporting it FROM THE WHOLE LENGTH OF THE ****ING GAME AND IM SICK OF SEEING "the indoc is wrong because [insert arbitrary stuff that happens towards the last ten minutes] blah"!!!

as to the thessia and prothean VI, its been established that VI doesnt know when indoctrination occurs and the best guess is it thinks your indoctrinated late in the process, like when you have reaper synthetics in you, like kai leng does, and TiM does. GAHHHHH!!!

[Cazlee]

It bothers me because I want to learn and make sense of the ending, not completely reject it with an "it was all a dream" approach. When so many people completely accept the IT theory on these boards, it's very hard to have a discussion.

[Cazlee]

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
The
Prothean VI's aren't fool proof. They couldn't detect the subtle
indoctrination of the Prothean group whom, like TIM, advocated to
control the Reapers rather then destroy them. Subtle indoctrination is
impossible to detect until it's too late. We know TIM fails, but there
is another problem, we don't know if Shepard succeeded either.

You
state that as fact. Yet it could also be the case that the protheans
added detection system after they learned that some of their collegues
were indoctrinated and researched their bodies.

It's
fact. The VI admits that when it talks about why the crucible project in
the Prothean cycle failed. Plus, I doubt they were able to conduct any
research on their bodies as the VI was involved with said project, which
was overthrown by the indoctrinated, so there was no one to upgrade his
systems after being hidden on Thessia.
Shepard: What happened to the Crucible in your time? Why didn't the Protheans deploy it?

Prothean VI: We were sabotaged from within. A splinter group argued we should dominate the Reapers rather than destroy them. It fractured our order of battle. Later, we discovered the separatists were indoctrinated.

Not just you Turkey, but the IT "believers" keep saying it's fact that Vendetta's detection system is imperfect. I have quoted his lines about the indoctrinated followers. There is no proof to support that his system is imperfect.

Modifié par Cazlee, 27 mars 2012 - 07:32 .

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

You can learn and make sense of it with the 23 minute long video on youtube explaining the indoc theory and the proof.

[WarChicken78]

Cazlee, if you don't like it, then... just wait for BioWare to make an official statement?

Nobody except Bioware can confirm anything at this point.
No sense in argueing for or against it.
I hope they will utilize the IT for an alternate Ending DLC.