244 réponses à ce sujet

[Cazlee]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

You can learn and make sense of it with the 23 minute long video on youtube explaining the indoc theory and the proof.

Edit: I've watched http://www.youtube.c...?v=ythY_GkEBck.

Modifié par Cazlee, 27 mars 2012 - 12:28 .

[Deltateam Elcor]

So the OP sets out to falsify the theory, even when he knows it cannot be disproven?

Logical failure of extraordinary proportions.

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

Cazlee wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

You can learn and make sense of it with the 23 minute long video on youtube explaining the indoc theory and the proof.

It doesn't work for me because of the loose definition they use of the word "proof"

Then go watch the video, and consider it evidence towards the theory rather then proof.

Modifié par GME_ThorianCreeper, 27 mars 2012 - 07:31 .

[dreman9999]

Cazlee wrote...

IT theory leaves no way to disprove it because "it was all a dream." How can you disprove a dream?

Here are reasons for believing that Shepard is not indoctrinated:

-The proof that the 'starchild' is telling the truth is that all of the ending choices do exactly what starchild says they will.
-The proof that Shepard is not indoctrinated is that the prothean AI does not detect indoctrination in her, and because she is able to open the citadel, the necessary and final step in order to activate the crucible. That is the ultimate test  that TIM fails. (neutral option - TIM literally cannot complete the final step, and this is how he realises he is indoctrinated.)
-Whenever Shepard is being controlled there are wavy lines in her vision. The wavy lines are gone completely when TIM dies.
-If Shepard were truly indoctrinated, she would not be able to destroy the reapers (in the same way TIM could not interact with the citadel control panel). Because the red (destroy) option exists is again proof that she is not indoctrinated.


If the blue and green endings are paths to indoctrination, there would be evidence for it in the two end scenes.

1. That's not proof.
2.This same VI did not detect the indoctrinated prothean agents that stopped the protheans crucible project.And the theory states that Shep is in the procces of indoctrination.
3.The indoctrination theory says thats a dream so everything that happens with TIM did not happen.
4.Hence why she/he is in the procces of being indotrinated....Meaning Shep is not  indoctrinated yet.

[Unschuld]

Cazlee wrote...

IT theory leaves no way to disprove it because "it was all a dream." How can you disprove a dream?

  

Are we allowing dreams into evidence now? How can I defend my innocence against this kind of testimony...

[dreman9999]

Cazlee wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

You can learn and make sense of it with the 23 minute long video on youtube explaining the indoc theory and the proof.

It doesn't work for me because of the loose definition they use of the word "proof"

The star child synthesis option being what Saren wanted in ME1, and what the collectors were in ME2...iS NOT PROOF?

Modifié par dreman9999, 27 mars 2012 - 07:34 .

[WarChicken78]

Unschuld wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

IT theory leaves no way to disprove it because "it was all a dream." How can you disprove a dream?

  

Are we allowing dreams into evidence now? How can I defend my innocence against this kind of testimony...

Well played!

[Turkeysock]

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
The
Prothean VI's aren't fool proof. They couldn't detect the subtle
indoctrination of the Prothean group whom, like TIM, advocated to
control the Reapers rather then destroy them. Subtle indoctrination is
impossible to detect until it's too late. We know TIM fails, but there
is another problem, we don't know if Shepard succeeded either.

You
state that as fact. Yet it could also be the case that the protheans
added detection system after they learned that some of their collegues
were indoctrinated and researched their bodies.

It's
fact. The VI admits that when it talks about why the crucible project in
the Prothean cycle failed. Plus, I doubt they were able to conduct any
research on their bodies as the VI was involved with said project, which
was overthrown by the indoctrinated, so there was no one to upgrade his
systems after being hidden on Thessia.
Shepard: What happened to the Crucible in your time? Why didn't the Protheans deploy it?

Prothean VI: We were sabotaged from within. A splinter group argued we should dominate the Reapers rather than destroy them. It fractured our order of battle. Later, we discovered the separatists were indoctrinated.

Not just you Turkey, but the IT "believers" keep saying it's fact that Vendetta's detection system is imperfect. I have quoted his lines about the indoctrinated followers. There is no proof to support that his system is imperfect.

There is no proof to support that his system is perfect either.

Cazlee, your not going to win. Not because I think I'm right and your wrong, but because everything is speculation. For every counter you bring, I or someone else can counter it. There is no victory. There is no fact. Only speculation.

[Cazlee]

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
Reverse psychology. Present the option that your target is most likely to do, but then add in some consequences that would make that option less viable, IE the destruction of every synthetic beings (according to it, that would mean EDI and the Geth go bye bye).

It's not reverse psychology when not all Shepards like or trust the geth or EDI.

That actually doesn't matter. Because if EDI and the Geth are included, you could easily see the possibility that all VI's would also be affected by this. And VI's are integral part of the Alliance fleets, don't know about the other races ships, but the Alliance would be ****ed without them.

The alliance have VIs, but the child is talking about AIs. Edi and the Geth are AI.

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
Why would TIM want to open the arms for the Crucible. He thinks the Crucible will destroy the Reapers, hence he doesn't open the arms to the Citadel.

Because he knows the crucible is the way to control the reapers.

TIM doesn't appear to know much then. Why then run to the Citadel and inform the Reapers? Why not just take a small task force (there are obviously many Cerberus cells still around even after the fall of his main base) and just lie in wait? Plus, he obviously tried to control the Reapers before the Crucible docked, because the Crucible didn't dock until AFTER Shepard opened the arms of the Citadel, which was either after TIM commited suicide or you shot him.

TIM was already indoctrinated. The prothean VI says as much. TIM still wanted to control the reapers, but he could not because he was already indoctrinated.  We both see this in game, and it is stated by the child.

[KaeserZen]

Turkeysock wrote...
There is no victory. There is no fact. Only speculation.

And lots of speculation from everyone !

[Cazlee]

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
The
Prothean VI's aren't fool proof. They couldn't detect the subtle
indoctrination of the Prothean group whom, like TIM, advocated to
control the Reapers rather then destroy them. Subtle indoctrination is
impossible to detect until it's too late. We know TIM fails, but there
is another problem, we don't know if Shepard succeeded either.

You
state that as fact. Yet it could also be the case that the protheans
added detection system after they learned that some of their collegues
were indoctrinated and researched their bodies.

It's
fact. The VI admits that when it talks about why the crucible project in
the Prothean cycle failed. Plus, I doubt they were able to conduct any
research on their bodies as the VI was involved with said project, which
was overthrown by the indoctrinated, so there was no one to upgrade his
systems after being hidden on Thessia.
Shepard: What happened to the Crucible in your time? Why didn't the Protheans deploy it?

Prothean VI: We were sabotaged from within. A splinter group argued we should dominate the Reapers rather than destroy them. It fractured our order of battle. Later, we discovered the separatists were indoctrinated.

Not just you Turkey, but the IT "believers" keep saying it's fact that Vendetta's detection system is imperfect. I have quoted his lines about the indoctrinated followers. There is no proof to support that his system is imperfect.

There is no proof to support that his system is perfect either.

Cazlee, your not going to win. Not because I think I'm right and your wrong, but because everything is speculation. For every counter you bring, I or someone else can counter it. There is no victory. There is no fact. Only speculation.

So we agree that what the IT theory states as proof/fact is in fact just an assumption.

Modifié par Cazlee, 27 mars 2012 - 07:40 .

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

Cazlee wrote...


So we agree that what the IT theory states as proof/fact is in fact just an assumption.

No, you two agree about the VI.  Not the entire theory.

Modifié par GME_ThorianCreeper, 27 mars 2012 - 07:42 .

[Turkeysock]

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
Reverse psychology. Present the option that your target is most likely to do, but then add in some consequences that would make that option less viable, IE the destruction of every synthetic beings (according to it, that would mean EDI and the Geth go bye bye).

It's not reverse psychology when not all Shepards like or trust the geth or EDI.

That actually doesn't matter. Because if EDI and the Geth are included, you could easily see the possibility that all VI's would also be affected by this. And VI's are integral part of the Alliance fleets, don't know about the other races ships, but the Alliance would be ****ed without them.

The alliance have VIs, but the child is talking about AIs. Edi and the Geth are AI.

But VI's are also based upon the same technology as AI's like EDI and the Geth.

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
Why would TIM want to open the arms for the Crucible. He thinks the Crucible will destroy the Reapers, hence he doesn't open the arms to the Citadel.

Because he knows the crucible is the way to control the reapers.

TIM doesn't appear to know much then. Why then run to the Citadel and inform the Reapers? Why not just take a small task force (there are obviously many Cerberus cells still around even after the fall of his main base) and just lie in wait? Plus, he obviously tried to control the Reapers before the Crucible docked, because the Crucible didn't dock until AFTER Shepard opened the arms of the Citadel, which was either after TIM commited suicide or you shot him.

TIM was already indoctrinated. The prothean VI says as much. TIM still wanted to control the reapers, but he could not because he was already indoctrinated.  We both see this in game, and it is stated by the child.

That doesn't actually counter what I said. The only way for TIM to have tried to take control would have been AFTER the Crucible docked. Because the Starchild stated that the Crucible added three new choices that Shepard must choose. TIM stopped the crucible from docking because he, nor anyone else, knew what would happen.

[dreman9999]

Unschuld wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

IT theory leaves no way to disprove it because "it was all a dream." How can you disprove a dream?

  

Are we allowing dreams into evidence now? How can I defend my innocence against this kind of testimony...

Let me add to this....
What Seran says in ME1.http://www.youtube.c...Jo3EzZZk#t=108s
What Mordin saysabout the collectors.. 
The star childs synthesis choice...http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lvyJo3EzZZk#t=108s
....
Anyone seeing a pattern?

[Cazlee]

GME_ThorianCreeper  : Yes that's what I meant, the VI.

Modifié par Cazlee, 27 mars 2012 - 07:45 .

[Baihu1983]

Indoc is just fan spec but its also the best way Bioware can get out of this mess from what ive seen so far without completly re doing the last mission[which they should anyways and add all the stuff they took out!]

[dreman9999]

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
Reverse psychology. Present the option that your target is most likely to do, but then add in some consequences that would make that option less viable, IE the destruction of every synthetic beings (according to it, that would mean EDI and the Geth go bye bye).

It's not reverse psychology when not all Shepards like or trust the geth or EDI.

That actually doesn't matter. Because if EDI and the Geth are included, you could easily see the possibility that all VI's would also be affected by this. And VI's are integral part of the Alliance fleets, don't know about the other races ships, but the Alliance would be ****ed without them.

The alliance have VIs, but the child is talking about AIs. Edi and the Geth are AI.

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
Why would TIM want to open the arms for the Crucible. He thinks the Crucible will destroy the Reapers, hence he doesn't open the arms to the Citadel.

Because he knows the crucible is the way to control the reapers.

TIM doesn't appear to know much then. Why then run to the Citadel and inform the Reapers? Why not just take a small task force (there are obviously many Cerberus cells still around even after the fall of his main base) and just lie in wait? Plus, he obviously tried to control the Reapers before the Crucible docked, because the Crucible didn't dock until AFTER Shepard opened the arms of the Citadel, which was either after TIM commited suicide or you shot him.

TIM was already indoctrinated. The prothean VI says as much. TIM still wanted to control the reapers, but he could not because he was already indoctrinated.  We both see this in game, and it is stated by the child.

Your saying the prothean VI can tell TIM is indoctrinated through his long range hologram?
Dude, he was not even in the room. That was a hologram.

[Unschuld]

Cazlee wrote...

So we agree that what the IT theory states as proof/fact is in fact just an assumption.

If you're concerned because some individuals pass off Indoc Theory as fact, you have a right to. They shouldn't be doing that. It isn't fact and conversely hasn't been proven false... yet. For now, it is what it is: A theory. It just happens to be one of the most compelling theories that can actually make some sense out of the nonsensical endings that have been presented thus far.

[Skyhawk02]

I didn't want to buy into indocrination theory, but the thing that pushed me to agreeing with it was that shepard's eyes look just like the illusive mans eyes if you pick control or synthesis. They do not if you pick destroy. I can think of no other explanation for this other than indoctrination theory.

[dreman9999]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

I didn't want to buy into indocrination theory, but the thing that pushed me to agreeing with it was that shepard's eyes look just like the illusive mans eyes if you pick control or synthesis. They do not if you pick destroy. I can think of no other explanation for this other than indoctrination theory.

Let me add to this....
What Seran says in ME1.http://www.youtube.c...Jo3EzZZk#t=108s
What Mordin says about the collectors.. 
The star childs synthesis choice...

....

Modifié par dreman9999, 27 mars 2012 - 07:54 .

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

dreman9999 wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

I didn't want to buy into indocrination theory, but the thing that pushed me to agreeing with it was that shepard's eyes look just like the illusive mans eyes if you pick control or synthesis. They do not if you pick destroy. I can think of no other explanation for this other than indoctrination theory.

Let me add to this....
What Seran says in ME1.http://www.youtube.c...Jo3EzZZk#t=108s
What Mordin says about the collectors.. 
The star childs synthesis choice...http://www.youtube.c...Jo3EzZZk#t=108s
....
Anyone seeing a pattern?

The link to your starchild video is Saren suicide video.

[dreman9999]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

I didn't want to buy into indocrination theory, but the thing that pushed me to agreeing with it was that shepard's eyes look just like the illusive mans eyes if you pick control or synthesis. They do not if you pick destroy. I can think of no other explanation for this other than indoctrination theory.

Let me add to this....
What Seran says in ME1.http://www.youtube.c...Jo3EzZZk#t=108s
What Mordin says about the collectors.. 
The star childs synthesis choice...http://www.youtube.c...Jo3EzZZk#t=108s
....
Anyone seeing a pattern?

The link to your starchild video is Saren suicide video.

The star childs synthesis choice... http://www.youtube.c...ailpage#t=1176s

Modifié par dreman9999, 27 mars 2012 - 07:53 .

[Cazlee]

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
Reverse psychology. Present the option that your target is most likely to do, but then add in some consequences that would make that option less viable, IE the destruction of every synthetic beings (according to it, that would mean EDI and the Geth go bye bye).

It's not reverse psychology when not all Shepards like or trust the geth or EDI.

That actually doesn't matter. Because if EDI and the Geth are included, you could easily see the possibility that all VI's would also be affected by this. And VI's are integral part of the Alliance fleets, don't know about the other races ships, but the Alliance would be ****ed without them.

The alliance have VIs, but the child is talking about AIs. Edi and the Geth are AI.

But VI's are also based upon the same technology as AI's like EDI and the Geth.

The alliance banned AI.  That is why EDI had to deceive the crew into believing that she was a VI.
VI technology is probably part of the building blocks to AI, but so are basic computers. By the way VI = virtual interface, AI = artificial intelligence.  There's obviously a huge difference.

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
Why would TIM want to open the arms for the Crucible. He thinks the Crucible will destroy the Reapers, hence he doesn't open the arms to the Citadel.

Because he knows the crucible is the way to control the reapers.

TIM doesn't appear to know much then. Why then run to the Citadel and inform the Reapers? Why not just take a small task force (there are obviously many Cerberus cells still around even after the fall of his main base) and just lie in wait? Plus, he obviously tried to control the Reapers before the Crucible docked, because the Crucible didn't dock until AFTER Shepard opened the arms of the Citadel, which was either after TIM commited suicide or you shot him.

TIM was already indoctrinated. The prothean VI says as much. TIM still wanted to control the reapers, but he could not because he was already indoctrinated.  We both see this in game, and it is stated by the child.

That doesn't actually counter what I said. The only way for TIM to have tried to take control would have been AFTER the Crucible docked. Because the Starchild stated that the Crucible added three new choices that Shepard must choose. TIM stopped the crucible from docking because he, nor anyone else, knew what would happen.

TIM does not stop the crucible from docking. He tries to get it to happen, but fails.  There are specific dialogues from TIM that show he is aware that the crucible is needed to control the reapers.  It just takes too long to get to the end scene or else I would quote them.

[Cazlee]

dreman9999 wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
Reverse psychology. Present the option that your target is most likely to do, but then add in some consequences that would make that option less viable, IE the destruction of every synthetic beings (according to it, that would mean EDI and the Geth go bye bye).

It's not reverse psychology when not all Shepards like or trust the geth or EDI.

That actually doesn't matter. Because if EDI and the Geth are included, you could easily see the possibility that all VI's would also be affected by this. And VI's are integral part of the Alliance fleets, don't know about the other races ships, but the Alliance would be ****ed without them.

The alliance have VIs, but the child is talking about AIs. Edi and the Geth are AI.

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
Why would TIM want to open the arms for the Crucible. He thinks the Crucible will destroy the Reapers, hence he doesn't open the arms to the Citadel.

Because he knows the crucible is the way to control the reapers.

TIM doesn't appear to know much then. Why then run to the Citadel and inform the Reapers? Why not just take a small task force (there are obviously many Cerberus cells still around even after the fall of his main base) and just lie in wait? Plus, he obviously tried to control the Reapers before the Crucible docked, because the Crucible didn't dock until AFTER Shepard opened the arms of the Citadel, which was either after TIM commited suicide or you shot him.

TIM was already indoctrinated. The prothean VI says as much. TIM still wanted to control the reapers, but he could not because he was already indoctrinated.  We both see this in game, and it is stated by the child.

Your saying the prothean VI can tell TIM is indoctrinated through his long range hologram?
Dude, he was not even in the room. That was a hologram.

The VI calls cereberus indoctrinated forces.