244 réponses à ce sujet

[MadRabbit999]

DraCZeQQ wrote...

Va1us wrote...

DraCZeQQ wrote...

Va1us wrote...

You haven't watched the vid or read the blog haven't you? :-)  These developers are professionals in their craft, given years to fine tune this game.  It was even pushed back.  It seems too polished to be rushed.  Every thing points to the contrary of that belief really.  The ending is amazing because the game has been used to trick us.  The system we have relied upon throught out the series has been used against the player.  And we didn't know until it was too late.  I'm surprise, truly surprised you don't see that.  

No they are not, at least not anymore (in my eyes) they are above average thats it ... (*they are proffesionals as they do it for money, but they are not God's of story telling ... )
The games was aimed for CoD crowd, they would never try to trick them ...
It doesnt seem polished ... there is so many plot holes and plot armor used to keep the story and logic so so together ...

When the DLC arrives, and you've experience it, I hope you are willing to revisit this discussion again   I know I wil be.  I am incredibly interested on what your opinion will be.  I wonder if you will still doubt the obvious.

Sure if you will be able to prove that Bioware intended the IT from the beginning and not just used it as a damage control / simple, community approved, fanfic solution ... 

Essentially what you are saying is "Even if I am wrong, I was still right"

Sorry but that smells a bit of BS to me... you either beleive it or not... or someone can say the same about "Yeah they planned IT from the start, but decided to cut it in this new DLC, so we were not wrong".

Take it like a man if you are wrong.

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 27 mars 2012 - 12:42 .

[Va1us]

DraCZeQQ wrote...

Va1us wrote...

DraCZeQQ wrote...

Va1us wrote...

You haven't watched the vid or read the blog haven't you? :-)  These developers are professionals in their craft, given years to fine tune this game.  It was even pushed back.  It seems too polished to be rushed.  Every thing points to the contrary of that belief really.  The ending is amazing because the game has been used to trick us.  The system we have relied upon throught out the series has been used against the player.  And we didn't know until it was too late.  I'm surprise, truly surprised you don't see that.  

No they are not, at least not anymore (in my eyes) they are above average thats it ... (*they are proffesionals as they do it for money, but they are not God's of story telling ... )
The games was aimed for CoD crowd, they would never try to trick them ...
It doesnt seem polished ... there is so many plot holes and plot armor used to keep the story and logic so so together ...

When the DLC arrives, and you've experience it, I hope you are willing to revisit this discussion again   I know I wil be.  I am incredibly interested on what your opinion will be.  I wonder if you will still doubt the obvious.

Sure if you will be able to prove that Bioware intended the IT from the beginning and not just used it as a damage control / simple, community approved, fanfic solution ... 

Oh come on, that's a cheap way to weasel out of the me gloating experience lol.    How can anyone make a DLC based on widespread general consesus, in such a short amount of time?  And be on par with the rest of the game?  With voice work and what not?  If there's voice work, it's pre planned you know.  That's not damage control.

[Va1us]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

DraCZeQQ wrote...

Va1us wrote...

DraCZeQQ wrote...

Va1us wrote...

You haven't watched the vid or read the blog haven't you? :-)  These developers are professionals in their craft, given years to fine tune this game.  It was even pushed back.  It seems too polished to be rushed.  Every thing points to the contrary of that belief really.  The ending is amazing because the game has been used to trick us.  The system we have relied upon throught out the series has been used against the player.  And we didn't know until it was too late.  I'm surprise, truly surprised you don't see that.  

No they are not, at least not anymore (in my eyes) they are above average thats it ... (*they are proffesionals as they do it for money, but they are not God's of story telling ... )
The games was aimed for CoD crowd, they would never try to trick them ...
It doesnt seem polished ... there is so many plot holes and plot armor used to keep the story and logic so so together ...

When the DLC arrives, and you've experience it, I hope you are willing to revisit this discussion again   I know I wil be.  I am incredibly interested on what your opinion will be.  I wonder if you will still doubt the obvious.

Sure if you will be able to prove that Bioware intended the IT from the beginning and not just used it as a damage control / simple, community approved, fanfic solution ... 

Essentially what you are saying is "Even if I am wrong, I was still right"

Sorry but that smells a bit of BS to me... you either beleive it or not... or someone can say the same about "Yeah they planned IT from the start, but decided to cut it in this new DLC, so we were not wrong".

Take it like a man if you are wrong.

You just became my new favorite person

[DraCZeQQ]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Essentially what you are saying is "Even if I am wrong, I was still right

Let me illustrate:
Now it's more like Schroddinger's cat ... it's either alive or dead, but noone can be really sure until Bioware open's the box ... except it's pretty obvious that the cat is alive because you hear her *miow*, while there is a splinter group that believes that the cat is dead and the *miow* is just wind (or any other crazy theory) ... but if Bioware comes, opens the box and shoots the cat ... they can roll with "the cat was dead all along" to please the splinter group as it is simple solution and they would not have to deal with alive cat ...

[Va1us]

DraCZeQQ wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Essentially what you are saying is "Even if I am wrong, I was still right

Let me illustrate:
Now it's more like Schroddinger's cat ... it's either alive or dead, but noone can be really sure until Bioware open's the box ... except it's pretty obvious that the cat is alive because you hear her *miow*, while there is a splinter group that believes that the cat is dead and the *miow* is just wind (or any other crazy theory) ... but if Bioware comes, opens the box and shoots the cat ... they can roll with "the cat was dead all along" to please the splinter group as it is simple solution and they would not have to deal with alive cat ...

That's a very valid point.  But I for one trust Casey Hudson and co.  They care about the franchise,  and it obviously shows in their games.  I have no reason to believe that they will do that.  

[Cazlee]

If the indoc theory is right, and *it was all a dream* then when Shepard wakes up in London, the reapers are still there? I'm not seeing the genius of this...

The grandfather scene is just a dream too since it shows humans in the distant future, which would be impossible if blue/green = indoc and red = ouch I bumped my head?

[Dendio1]

Everyone's so eager to disprove IT. The fact that its lasted this long shows its legitimacy.

Ive heard people surmise that the fact that synthesis isnt an option until high ems is because the reapers dont need to indoctrinate you if the ems is low enough. Essentially they are dominating the allied forces and lose need of you. This explains why the star child shows annoyance when you show up with low ems. His reponse upon seeing you is * what are you doing here*? Consider that the reapers could not get the illusive man to convince you to control them. Synthesis may be an easier sell to shepard..i know it was a way easier sell to me. So they wont bother with it, unless you force their hand by having a more complete military force.

As many said the prothean AI can only detect higher levels of indoctrination. The protheans themselves had unknown indoctrinated in their midst and were doomed by it.

Shep becomes fully indoctrinated once he chooses control or synthesis.

The wavy black lines were visible while anderson ,the part of shepard actively rejecting reaper influcence, was still functional. Shepard's willpower folds as *anderson* takes his long rest and you the player represent the final defense against indoctrination.

[OriginalTibs]

Thing is, throughout the series the writing has been impeccable, the voice consistent, the story rock solid, and all the subplots were polished to a high luster... the ending we have is almost glaringly inconsistent with the rest. What is more Bioware is always careful about what they say about the furutre product, yet what they said is at odds with the current ending. How else do you explain such deviation when the IT fits perfectly as a story device on the way to the climax and conclusion? For one thing the pacing is all wrong: the ending we have currently is woefully premature.

Bioware is simply not so careless as this with their stories. The only fly in my ointment is DAII.

[Va1us]

Cazlee wrote...

If the indoc theory is right, and *it was all a dream* then when Shepard wakes up in London, the reapers are still there? I'm not seeing the genius of this...

The grandfather scene is just a dream too since it shows humans in the distant future, which would be impossible if blue/green = indoc and red = ouch I bumped my head?

The genuis lies in the delivery of the lie, not the lie itself.  Think about the first time you encoutered  the Reaper VI.  You trusted it, I know I did.  You ever stop to think why you did?  

[Va1us]

Dendio1 wrote...

Everyone's so eager to disprove IT. The fact that its lasted this long shows its legitimacy.

Ive heard people surmise that the fact that synthesis isnt an option until high ems is because the reapers dont need to indoctrinate you if the ems is low enough. Essentially they are dominating the allied forces and lose need of you. This explains why the star child shows annoyance when you show up with low ems. His reponse upon seeing you is * what are you doing here*? Consider that the reapers could not get the illusive man to convince you to control them. Synthesis may be an easier sell to shepard..i know it was a way easier sell to me. So they wont bother with it, unless you force their hand by having a more complete military force.

As many said the prothean AI can only detect higher levels of indoctrination. The protheans themselves had unknown indoctrinated in their midst and were doomed by it.

Shep becomes fully indoctrinated once he chooses control or synthesis.

The wavy black lines were visible while anderson ,the part of shepard actively rejecting reaper influcence, was still functional. Shepard's willpower folds as *anderson* takes his long rest and you the player represent the final defense against indoctrination.

Also a side note to support this.  In each cycle that we know of so far,  people who were indoctrinated just couldn't stop mentioning the idea of controling the Reapers, or in Saren's case, merging with them.  Something to consider.

Modifié par Va1us, 27 mars 2012 - 01:03 .

[Dendio1]

Va1us wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

If the indoc theory is right, and *it was all a dream* then when Shepard wakes up in London, the reapers are still there? I'm not seeing the genius of this...

The grandfather scene is just a dream too since it shows humans in the distant future, which would be impossible if blue/green = indoc and red = ouch I bumped my head?

The genuis lies in the delivery of the lie, not the lie itself.  Think about the first time you encoutered  the Reaper VI.  You trusted it, I know I did.  You ever stop to think why you did?  

I was confused as hell as to wtf was going on and so I clinged to his words as reality. The more blatant lies such as synthetics never working with organics stuck out, but I bought into his story about synthesis leading to the end of the destructive cycle. I was skeptical about control and did not want to kill the geth. Damn reapers got me first time around

Honestly i wanted to review everything he said, but he did not repeat himself. Still thats no excuse...i spent the past 3 games trying to kill the reapers. I sacrificed an entire baterian solar system just to delay the reapers. In retrospect killing the reapers should have always been the number one goal. Unfortunately, in my confusion I broke into my core principals. I wanted to save lives...as many as possible and so I choose synthesis....classic Saren...really learned to appreciate that guy after being in his shoes

Modifié par Dendio1, 27 mars 2012 - 01:06 .

[OMEGAlomaniac]

So this just turned into yet another "INDO IS RIGHT THERE IS NO OTHER WAY" thread huh? (Thats a guess, I can't be bothered reading the same comments over and over).

[Va1us]

I'm gonna be honest. I really don't have a problem with people forming their own idea of the ending. I think it's fascinating that there different opinions. Personally I am totally into this right now and I can't possibly bring myself to discuss anything atm. It has a hold on me lol :-)

[Va1us]

Dendio1 wrote...

Va1us wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

If the indoc theory is right, and *it was all a dream* then when Shepard wakes up in London, the reapers are still there? I'm not seeing the genius of this...

The grandfather scene is just a dream too since it shows humans in the distant future, which would be impossible if blue/green = indoc and red = ouch I bumped my head?

The genuis lies in the delivery of the lie, not the lie itself.  Think about the first time you encoutered  the Reaper VI.  You trusted it, I know I did.  You ever stop to think why you did?  

I was confused as hell as to wtf was going on and so I clinged to his words as reality. The more blatant lies such as synthetics never working with organics stuck out, but I bought into his story about synthesis leading to the end of the destructive cycle. I was skeptical about control and did not want to kill the geth. Damn reapers got me first time around

Honestly i wanted to review everything he said, but he did not repeat himself. Still thats no excuse...i spent the past 3 games trying to kill the reapers. I sacrificed an entire baterian solar system just to delay the reapers. In retrospect killing the reapers should have always been the number one goal. Unfortunately, in my confusion I broke into my core principals. I wanted to save lives...as many as possible and so I choose synthesis....classic Saren...really learned to appreciate that guy after being in his shoes

And that's where the magic lies.  In that moment, where we were led astray, by a video game.  That's amazing to me.  That's must be how Indoctrination feels like.  Very subtle, chipping away at you.  Taking advantage of Shepard's altruistic nature.  It's blue, it must be the right choice.... right?

Modifié par Va1us, 27 mars 2012 - 01:12 .

[Dendio1]

Va1us wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Va1us wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

If the indoc theory is right, and *it was all a dream* then when Shepard wakes up in London, the reapers are still there? I'm not seeing the genius of this...

The grandfather scene is just a dream too since it shows humans in the distant future, which would be impossible if blue/green = indoc and red = ouch I bumped my head?

The genuis lies in the delivery of the lie, not the lie itself.  Think about the first time you encoutered  the Reaper VI.  You trusted it, I know I did.  You ever stop to think why you did?  

I was confused as hell as to wtf was going on and so I clinged to his words as reality. The more blatant lies such as synthetics never working with organics stuck out, but I bought into his story about synthesis leading to the end of the destructive cycle. I was skeptical about control and did not want to kill the geth. Damn reapers got me first time around

Honestly i wanted to review everything he said, but he did not repeat himself. Still thats no excuse...i spent the past 3 games trying to kill the reapers. I sacrificed an entire baterian solar system just to delay the reapers. In retrospect killing the reapers should have always been the number one goal. Unfortunately, in my confusion I broke into my core principals. I wanted to save lives...as many as possible and so I choose synthesis....classic Saren...really learned to appreciate that guy after being in his shoes

And that's where the magic lies.  In that moment, where we were led astray, by a video game.  That's amazing to me.

My mind was blown afterwards...i mean I was right there talking down saran about synthesis in me1. I had just dealt with illusive man going on and on about human genetic destiny. How did I lose sight of the ultimate goal so easily? I think it was alot of subtle gestures...including the swaping of paragon and renagade colors. The game kinda turned on its head with starchild coming out of nowhere. I lost touch with 5 years of mass effect reality and went by what the reaper vi said. Indoctrination at its finest. Bravo bioware

It's blue, it must be the right choice.... right?

We are creatures of habit. Traffic lights: Green means go, Red means stop. Mass effect: the brain is trained to think Blue is good, Red is risky....no doubt about it. Scary how automatic it is

Modifié par Dendio1, 27 mars 2012 - 01:22 .

[Nostradamoose]

http://social.biowar...ndex/10676720/1

We all know that Indoctrination theory is SOOOOOOO Februray and early March! Join March and April with : The new Intoxication theory.

It will explain all you need to know about the endings.

[Va1us]

Dendio1 wrote...

Va1us wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Va1us wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

If the indoc theory is right, and *it was all a dream* then when Shepard wakes up in London, the reapers are still there? I'm not seeing the genius of this...

The grandfather scene is just a dream too since it shows humans in the distant future, which would be impossible if blue/green = indoc and red = ouch I bumped my head?

The genuis lies in the delivery of the lie, not the lie itself.  Think about the first time you encoutered  the Reaper VI.  You trusted it, I know I did.  You ever stop to think why you did?  

I was confused as hell as to wtf was going on and so I clinged to his words as reality. The more blatant lies such as synthetics never working with organics stuck out, but I bought into his story about synthesis leading to the end of the destructive cycle. I was skeptical about control and did not want to kill the geth. Damn reapers got me first time around

Honestly i wanted to review everything he said, but he did not repeat himself. Still thats no excuse...i spent the past 3 games trying to kill the reapers. I sacrificed an entire baterian solar system just to delay the reapers. In retrospect killing the reapers should have always been the number one goal. Unfortunately, in my confusion I broke into my core principals. I wanted to save lives...as many as possible and so I choose synthesis....classic Saren...really learned to appreciate that guy after being in his shoes

And that's where the magic lies.  In that moment, where we were led astray, by a video game.  That's amazing to me.

My mind was blown afterwards...i mean I was right there talking down saran about synthesis in me1. I had just dealt with illusive man going on and on about human genetic destiny. How did I lose sight of the ultimate goal so easily? I think it was alot of subtle gestures...including the swaping of paragon and renagade colors. The game kinda turned on its head with starchild coming out of nowhere. I lost touch with 5 years of mass effect reality and went by what the reaper vi said. Indoctrination at its finest. Bravo bioware

I know .  This medium has indeed come a long way.  I cannot wait to see what comes next.  It's almost diabolical when you think about lol.

[Cazlee]

Va1us wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

If the indoc theory is right, and *it was all a dream* then when Shepard wakes up in London, the reapers are still there? I'm not seeing the genius of this...

The grandfather scene is just a dream too since it shows humans in the distant future, which would be impossible if blue/green = indoc and red = ouch I bumped my head?

The genuis lies in the delivery of the lie, not the lie itself.  Think about the first time you encoutered  the Reaper VI.  You trusted it, I know I did.  You ever stop to think why you did?  

Like KoTOR and JE, but it makes sense in those games... Bioware ending the ME series with Earth still being devasted by the reapers and the crucible waiting to be used is just... LOL.

I can buy that blue/green = indoc, but not that the whole sequence from the beam attack is a dream.

[Pangaron]

Cazlee wrote...

Va1us wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

If the indoc theory is right, and *it was all a dream* then when Shepard wakes up in London, the reapers are still there? I'm not seeing the genius of this...

The grandfather scene is just a dream too since it shows humans in the distant future, which would be impossible if blue/green = indoc and red = ouch I bumped my head?

The genuis lies in the delivery of the lie, not the lie itself.  Think about the first time you encoutered  the Reaper VI.  You trusted it, I know I did.  You ever stop to think why you did?  

Like KoTOR and JE, but it makes sense in those games... Bioware ending the ME series with Earth still being devasted by the reapers and the crucible waiting to be used is just... LOL.

I can buy that blue/green = indoc, but not that the whole sequence from the beam attack is a dream.

We might just see parts of what is happening, if not completely imagined by Shepard. The new content would explain that and I can quite easily see Shepard as the last one coming out from Normandy (he is the captain after all, he must leave as the last one (as he did in ME2, he is not Francesco Schettino after all). Also, we cannot see if the child in the stargazer scene is a human, can we? And the grandpa,... you can guess who it is, or not. But I am speculating a lot even for my standards, just an idea...

Modifié par Pangaron, 27 mars 2012 - 01:55 .

[Turkeysock]

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
Why would TIM want to open the arms for the Crucible. He thinks the Crucible will destroy the Reapers, hence he doesn't open the arms to the Citadel.

Because he knows the crucible is the way to control the reapers.

TIM doesn't appear to know much then. Why then run to the Citadel and inform the Reapers? Why not just take a small task force (there are obviously many Cerberus cells still around even after the fall of his main base) and just lie in wait? Plus, he obviously tried to control the Reapers before the Crucible docked, because the Crucible didn't dock until AFTER Shepard opened the arms of the Citadel, which was either after TIM commited suicide or you shot him.

TIM was already indoctrinated. The prothean VI says as much. TIM still wanted to control the reapers, but he could not because he was already indoctrinated.  We both see this in game, and it is stated by the child.

That doesn't actually counter what I said. The only way for TIM to have tried to take control would have been AFTER the Crucible docked. Because the Starchild stated that the Crucible added three new choices that Shepard must choose. TIM stopped the crucible from docking because he, nor anyone else, knew what would happen.

TIM does not stop the crucible from docking. He tries to get it to happen, but fails.  There are specific dialogues from TIM that show he is aware that the crucible is needed to control the reapers.  It just takes too long to get to the end scene or else I would quote them.

Again, why would TIM run to the Reapers and stop the Crucible from docking in the first place? He obviously figured out that the Crucible was required AFTER he tried to take control and failed.

It's not possible that TIM ran to the reapers because at that point he doesn't know he's indoctrinated. He just wants to complete the crucible and use it before Shepard can because he knows that Shepard will use it to destroy the reapers that he desperately wants to save so that he can control.  The reapers find out about the catalyst because TIM is indoctrinated, so as soon as he found out what the catalyst was, they did too.


Illusive Man: I've dedicated my life to understanding the Reapers, and I know with certainty: the Crucible will allow me to control them.
(A great picture of his eyes too!)

And yet, like I've pointed out several times, he tried to take control of them BEFORE the Crucible docked. That picture was taken BEFORE it docked with the Citadel. If he believed that at the start, why then, did he try to take control before it docked? That picture proves that he did before Shepard even arrived!

Also, here, the Prothean VI states that it was TIM who broke through his security protocols personally, and also points out that TIM fled and warned the Reapers. Now whether he warned the Reapers because he was indoctrinated or he simply flipped open a comm channel and connected to them is not stated, but the latter is implied more so by the way it stated it.

[Cazlee]

Did you change your stance from "Why would TIM want to open the arms for the Crucible. He thinks the Crucible will destroy the Reapers, hence he doesn't open the arms to the Citadel?"

Because I've been responding to you based mainly on that first statement. TIM tries to open the arms of the citadel so that it can power the crucible (given the right dialogue options), but he realizes that he cannot perform the task because the reapers have full control of him. Because Shepard can do this, Shepard is not indoctrinated at this point.(Unless you believe the whole thing is a dream, in which case your game ends with the Reapers still on Earth and the crucible unactivated.)

Modifié par Cazlee, 27 mars 2012 - 03:09 .

[Yahmosa007]

Shepard gets himself indoctrinated with blue
Shepard indoctrinated the entire galaxy so they are harvested willingly with green

that's what i assume the difference is between the endings is. Maybe it is in sheps mind, but he also does activate the crucible somehow

[Liquoid]

Yes, given the amount of information we see in-game, Indoctrination theory is technically inadequate due to being unfalsifiable.

So's the Quantum Field Theory.

[Nefelius]

Indoctrination theory lacks ingame facts, and is nothing but desperate twisting of events in order to fit an unlikely idea.

Now the Intoxication Theory has more ingame proof that any other possible theory. And because of that - it's the only truth. Shepard was drunk and was hallucinating everything. Everything.

[Cazlee]

Yahmosa007 wrote...
 Maybe it is in sheps mind, but he also does activate the crucible somehow

I can understand those views on blue and green, but think this a major flaw in the "it was all a dream and red wakes him up" theory.

In fact, the "it was all a dream" theory creates a lose/lose/lose situation no matter which choice you take.

Modifié par Cazlee, 27 mars 2012 - 03:31 .