60 réponses à ce sujet

[Loetek]

addiction21 wrote...

Loetek wrote...

You all = a bunch of Re Re

Drizzt was a highly detailed character. To say he sucks or is terrible is like saying the sky smells purple. If Drizzt sucks in anyway shape or form its because R A Salvatore is a horrible writer. And if you say he is a horrible writer then I would like to see you do better.

To the person saying "All cars HAVE to have four wheels. So its stupid if it doesn't" Your a moron.

And to the person saying that for someone to overcome overwhelming odds is impossible... you obviously are not military or prior military.

Translation:  "OMG you insulted my fantasy HERO!!! YOUR ALL STUPID AND DUMB DUMBS. Boooooooo you!!! Your morons"

Riiiight...

Because you cant appriciate a author thats great at detailing large scale battles. You HAVE to be a fanboy.

Im pretty sure they have a name for people like you. Hater.

Besides that im more of a Terry Goodkind and Anne McCaffery reader anyways.

[VanDraegon]

Creature 1 wrote...

CJohnJones wrote...

Would hate that with a passion.

Quoted for truth. 

Quoted this quoted quote for truth.

[Kaosgirl]

EzraMichael wrote...

Trigonous wrote...

Drizzt should never have existed. Dark Elves are Chaotic Evil. Always. This is why I never allow one of my players to play as a Drow. They just always channel Drizzt, and it's not fun.

Dude, thats like saying all irish are baby making wife beating drunk catholics...not fair.

It's not even close to that.  The Irish are a subset of humanity, the Drow are not.  "Chaotic Evil" is quite a bit more broad a categorization than "baby making wife beating drunk catholics."  And last I checked, Irish culture does not have a policy of hunting down and killing heretics who refuse to embrace the stereotype.  Drow society explicitly does.

[Kaosgirl]

Loetek wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Loetek wrote...

You all = a bunch of Re Re

Drizzt was a highly detailed character. To say he sucks or is terrible is like saying the sky smells purple. If Drizzt sucks in anyway shape or form its because R A Salvatore is a horrible writer. And if you say he is a horrible writer then I would like to see you do better.

To the person saying "All cars HAVE to have four wheels. So its stupid if it doesn't" Your a moron.

And to the person saying that for someone to overcome overwhelming odds is impossible... you obviously are not military or prior military.

Translation:  "OMG you insulted my fantasy HERO!!! YOUR ALL STUPID AND DUMB DUMBS. Boooooooo you!!! Your morons"

Riiiight...

Because you cant appriciate a author thats great at detailing large scale battles. You HAVE to be a fanboy.

Im pretty sure they have a name for people like you. Hater.

Besides that im more of a Terry Goodkind and Anne McCaffery reader anyways.

I'd like Goodkind more, if he stopped hitting his readers over the head with the Objectivism Sledgehammer.  More story, less Author Tract please.

[DaeFaron]

Kaosgirl wrote...

EzraMichael wrote...

Trigonous wrote...

Drizzt should never have existed. Dark Elves are Chaotic Evil. Always. This is why I never allow one of my players to play as a Drow. They just always channel Drizzt, and it's not fun.

Dude, thats like saying all irish are baby making wife beating drunk catholics...not fair.

It's not even close to that.  The Irish are a subset of humanity, the Drow are not.  "Chaotic Evil" is quite a bit more broad a categorization than "baby making wife beating drunk catholics."  And last I checked, Irish culture does not have a policy of hunting down and killing heretics who refuse to embrace the stereotype.  Drow society explicitly does.

But, saying the race(aka, ALL the people in it) is evil is like saying my Lawful good tiefling monk never exists.

[Daeion]

Trigonous wrote...

Drizzt should never have existed. Dark Elves are Chaotic Evil. Always. This is why I never allow one of my players to play as a Drow. They just always channel Drizzt, and it's not fun.

As a society Drow are actually lawful evil as they have strict practices, hierarchies and a very strict religion.  Individually is where Drow become chaotic.  Now Drow are individuals so there's really no reason you couldn't have a good drow just like you can have good and evil humans, elves, and dwarfs.  It's pretty much the ultimate argument of
nature vs. nurture.  Ofcourse there is also the theroy that Drizzt was actually created and introduced by Lloth to be the ultimate agent of chaos, I mean look at all of the chaos he created amongst the drow.

Yes, I am that much of a dork that I went there.

Modifié par Daeion, 02 décembre 2009 - 06:13 .

[DaeFaron]

Daeion wrote...

Trigonous wrote...

Drizzt should never have existed. Dark Elves are Chaotic Evil. Always. This is why I never allow one of my players to play as a Drow. They just always channel Drizzt, and it's not fun.

As a society Drow are actually lawful evil as they have strict practices, hierarchies and a very strict religion.  Individually is where Drow become chaotic.  Now Drow are individuals so there's really no reason you couldn't have a good drow just like you can have good and evil humans, elves, and dwarfs.  It's pretty much the ultimate argument of
nature vs. nurture.  Yes, I am that much of a dork that I went there.

Love you man, you said me and my brothers conclusion on alignments.

Drow/dark elves are chaotic evil from an outsiders viewpoint. But they are lawful evil because of...your listed reasons.

Like Barbarians are lawful, they have their codes of honor and such. To outsides it is very chaotic.

[Cadarin]

Kaosgirl wrote...
It's not even close to that.  The Irish are a subset of humanity, the Drow are not.  "Chaotic Evil" is quite a bit more broad a categorization than "baby making wife beating drunk catholics."  And last I checked, Irish culture does not have a policy of hunting down and killing heretics who refuse to embrace the stereotype.  Drow society explicitly does.

If they had to create a policy to hunt the heretics down, that must mean that there are some out there, eh? 
Of course, I suspect that a lot of the details about Drow society that everyone now aknowledges as canon were actually invented by Salvatore.  It's funny when the traditionalists bash Drizzt for breaking lore with facts they picked up from his creator's books.  

[Wolfva2]

aberdash wrote...

Trigonous wrote...

Dark Elves are Chaotic Evil. Always.

Thats like saying a paladin will never under any circumstance commit an evil act because they are a paladin.

He can.  But then he wouldn't be a Paladin anymore.  I still remember when my Paladin got aleaxed just for getting revenge on some orcs.  Then again, the DM hated my guts so that probably had more to do with it.

[Kaosgirl]

DaeFaron wrote...

Kaosgirl wrote...

EzraMichael wrote...

Trigonous wrote...

Drizzt should never have existed. Dark Elves are Chaotic Evil. Always. This is why I never allow one of my players to play as a Drow. They just always channel Drizzt, and it's not fun.

Dude, thats like saying all irish are baby making wife beating drunk catholics...not fair.

It's not even close to that.  The Irish are a subset of humanity, the Drow are not.  "Chaotic Evil" is quite a bit more broad a categorization than "baby making wife beating drunk catholics."  And last I checked, Irish culture does not have a policy of hunting down and killing heretics who refuse to embrace the stereotype.  Drow society explicitly does.

But, saying the race(aka, ALL the people in it) is evil is like saying my Lawful good tiefling monk never exists.

He probably shouldn't, if I recall the Tiefling origins correctly.  He's at least partially made of Evil, literally.  Biological determinism, if not divine intervention, makes such a being shifting to 'good' quite unlikely.

Then looking at Drow.  Bear in mind, these are not some Elvish analog to darker skinned human races.  One raised as a drow has never seen a models of "Good" behavior, has been indoctrinated with the philosophy of evil his/her entire life, has had any genetic predispositions to altruistic tendencies weeded out through unnatural selection for centuries, and bathes in the morally-corruptive radiation (for lack of a better term) that permeates the Underdark.  
Finding one who's of Good alignment from the start is like trying to find someone born and raised in the most forgotten country village of Ireland who speaks fluent Arabic and knows not a word of his parent's language.

[DaeFaron]

Neverwinter Nights, Hordes of the Underdark. You are in a town of drow worshipping the goddess who wants to dance under the moon, they are mostly good-aligned compared to all the other drow.



Probably shouldn't, might be correct. But if everybody characters aligned with rulebooks perfectly and never had unique instances would be quite boring. Thus my good aligned Tiefling monk, and my one character who was quickly banned on a NWN rp server, merely because his father was an elf, and his mother a drow (Got rid of that one afterward, seeing as I had made him for the server)

[DalVel]

I just have to saying to everyone who thinks Drizzt is an interesting character.
He *might* be an interesting character
But if it wasn't for Salvatore's artistic intervention, Drizzt would end up with a poisoned dagger through his throat while he was asleep before the end of second year in the academy. Every other student knew he couldn't be beaten in single combat. A lot of other students died to hidden knives and poisoned treats. Drizzt miraculously survived.

As for the drow, if we're talking FR drow, there *are* drow who are raised in what you could call a "normal" society. The Eilistraee faith.
And there are drow who don't really care about all this chaotic evil Lolth worshipping crap also known as denizens of Sshamath.

and bathes in the morally-corruptive radiation (for lack of a better term) that permeates the Underdark. 

Umm, Faerzress is morally neutral considering it's a natural phenomenon (fair enough, artificially created, but after this many centuries it can be already assumed natural. It's there to keep the Drow in Underdark because they depend on it. Morally corruptive is Lolth's faith.)

Modifié par DalVel, 02 décembre 2009 - 06:52 .

[Deran2]

Kaosgirl wrote...
I'd like Goodkind more, if he stopped hitting his readers over the head with the Objectivism Sledgehammer.  More story, less Author Tract please.

Agreed. Sword of Truth started out great, but as it went along he started beating his ideals into the readers head more and more. If I wasn't so interested in the fate of the characters and the final outcome I would have stopped reading them long before the final book. I feel the same about Orsen Scott Card's book. When he isn't being preachy and pounding his ideas into your head he is a good writer, when he is I want to toss the book in a fire.

[Kaosgirl]

DalVel wrote...
As for the drow, if we're talking FR drow, there *are* drow who are raised in what you could call a "normal" society. The Eilistraee faith.

I believe they're more of a ret-con, made to appease the hordes of drizzle-wannabes.  Even if not, they're... rather inconsistent.
But I'm not a huge FR canon buff.  

DalVel wrote...
And there are drow who don't really care about all this chaotic evil Lolth worshipping crap also known as denizens of Sshamath.

And curiously, they're still all Evil.
(They also reek of ret-con, though.)

DalVel wrote...

and bathes in the morally-corruptive radiation (for lack of a better term) that permeates the Underdark. 

Umm, Faerzress is morally neutral considering it's a natural phenomenon (fair enough, artificially created, but after this many centuries it can be already assumed natural. It's there to keep the Drow in Underdark because they depend on it. Morally corruptive is Lolth's faith.)

The negative plane is a 'natural phenomon,' as is the Abyss.  Yet both are Evil by definition.  It's one of those little side effects of Alignment being an objective force in the universe rather than a subjective ranking of moral codes.

That said, I admit my knowledge of FR lore is sketchy at points.  Having looked up Faerzress, it seems to have no moral component.  (Which is odd, I was sure there was some explanation for why the races of the underdark all tended towards evil when their surfacer equivelants mostly tended towards good.)  

[DaeFaron]

I believe its mainly because they got banished to the underdark, you know grudges and all.

[Vergil_dgk]

I never understood have they could name a guy "Artemis", it IS hilarious, though!

[F-C]

if you followed the books there was actually a period where Drizzt was living in the tunnels much like a barbarian and would kill most anything that got in his path. he was nearly going insane. he went through a lot of personal trials and came out a changed man, he wasnt just born the way he ended up.



this is also reflected much in the way AD&D allows your alignment to shift based on your actions.

[GHL_Soul_Reaver]

Trigonous wrote...

Drizzt should never have existed. Dark Elves are Chaotic Evil. Always. This is why I never allow one of my players to play as a Drow. They just always channel Drizzt, and it's not fun.

No no no...  Chaotic evil is not always the way... you need to use the full evil aspect when a drow... Lawfull Evil exist, Neutral Evil Exist, Chaotic Evil... even in the drow community there is need for laws and order... as well as drow that care less, putting them into one catagorie is very wrong of you.

True Neutral LIke Drizzt, dunno why he ended at the surface, but he must have had a reason for it, since there can be chaotic evil humans and good or whatever then there is a chance likewise with other communities or lore races...

As for allowing them and there ways in DA:O it is a no for anything public bioware made rated illegal to add.

Anyhow if you want the most insane personality in any RPG you play Chaotic Neutral, that way you sway to both sides and is the worst kind of paranoia sociopat... that first attack his friends with bloodlust for then mourning afterwards in why he she did it.

[Mordaedil]

Wolfva2 wrote...

aberdash wrote...

Trigonous wrote...

Dark Elves are Chaotic Evil. Always.

Thats like saying a paladin will never under any circumstance commit an evil act because they are a paladin.

He can.  But then he wouldn't be a Paladin anymore.  I still remember when my Paladin got aleaxed just for getting revenge on some orcs.  Then again, the DM hated my guts so that probably had more to do with it.

Paladins do not cease to be paladins because of one evil act, but it's debatable motivation behind his action.

[Sarevok Anchev]

Trigonous wrote...

Drizzt should never have existed. Dark Elves are Chaotic Evil. Always. This is why I never allow one of my players to play as a Drow. They just always channel Drizzt, and it's not fun.

Yeah, uh, right!

*giggle*

[YDragGoth]

Well, I read and play alot of fantasy, at the age of 31 I have played my hours of D&D (drager og demoner, lol), Cyperpunk, Shadowrun, Merp, Earthdawn etc. What I liked about D&D was the world and the creatures, tough a little cheesy here and there but that doenst matter as long as you have fun playing the game. What I didnt like about D&D was the rules, cant say how it is now cus I havent played the game in years. When me and my friends a seldom time play, its always Earthdawn, would be fun if someone made a Pc game of that unviverse.



To the Drizzt discussion here, I realy love the character and characters in the books, its his writing that sometimes make me skip some pages... Though I do generaly love his books, reading the Ghost king now.



Try out Scott Lynches Lies of Locke Lamora, one of the best fantasy reads I have had;D

[Auraad]

Oh man, while I liked those chars of the FR for some time, I think they already over did it to the end. So, I've got my share of these and am "healed".



Besides, as stated before, completely wrong Universe. The mages in DA:O would first have to learn how to travel using magic (teleporting and shifting planes, that is). ;p

[Kaosgirl]

Mordaedil wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

aberdash wrote...

Trigonous wrote...



Dark Elves are Chaotic Evil. Always.

Thats like saying a paladin will never under any circumstance commit an evil act because they are a paladin.

He can. But then he wouldn't be a Paladin anymore. I still remember when my Paladin got aleaxed just for getting revenge on some orcs. Then again, the DM hated my guts so that probably had more to do with it.

Paladins do not cease to be paladins because of one evil act, but it's debatable motivation behind his action.

Actually, at least regarding third edition, they explicitly do cease to be paladins because of one evil act. The trick is in figuring out what constitutes an 'evil act' when the alignment system is based on motivation.

[DarkeTiger]

I'd say the drow are more likely to be neutral evil overall. They are only interested in advancing themselves, and will not always follow the law to get what they want. Lawful evil is about manipulating the law to get what you want without breaking it, though there may be a lot of corruption going on. They are definitely not chaotic evil, because that would mean that they only care about causing pain, even if they're the ones on the receiving end.



Terminsel and Koveras defs have to make an appearance. =P

[Daeion]

Kaosgirl wrote...

DaeFaron wrote...

Kaosgirl wrote...

EzraMichael wrote...

Trigonous wrote...

Drizzt should never have existed. Dark Elves are Chaotic Evil. Always. This is why I never allow one of my players to play as a Drow. They just always channel Drizzt, and it's not fun.

Dude, thats like saying all irish are baby making wife beating drunk catholics...not fair.

It's not even close to that.  The Irish are a subset of humanity, the Drow are not.  "Chaotic Evil" is quite a bit more broad a categorization than "baby making wife beating drunk catholics."  And last I checked, Irish culture does not have a policy of hunting down and killing heretics who refuse to embrace the stereotype.  Drow society explicitly does.

But, saying the race(aka, ALL the people in it) is evil is like saying my Lawful good tiefling monk never exists.

He probably shouldn't, if I recall the Tiefling origins correctly.  He's at least partially made of Evil, literally.  Biological determinism, if not divine intervention, makes such a being shifting to 'good' quite unlikely.

Then looking at Drow.  Bear in mind, these are not some Elvish analog to darker skinned human races.  One raised as a drow has never seen a models of "Good" behavior, has been indoctrinated with the philosophy of evil his/her entire life, has had any genetic predispositions to altruistic tendencies weeded out through unnatural selection for centuries, and bathes in the morally-corruptive radiation (for lack of a better term) that permeates the Underdark.  
Finding one who's of Good alignment from the start is like trying to find someone born and raised in the most forgotten country village of Ireland who speaks fluent Arabic and knows not a word of his parent's language.

Well according to the Drizzt backstory he was mostly raised by one of his sisters and his father.  His father already hated Drow society and the sister that raised him did at times show campasion, but then at other times was your typical Drow.  So it really depends on what exactly he picked up.  As I mentioned before it's pretty much the ultimate nurture vs. nature arguement if you take out the Lloth theroy.  It could verywell be that there have been other neutral/good drow before but they were weeded out where as drizzt managed to survive.

Also, I wouldn't call surface Drow a retcon since they never actually make an appearance in a Drizzt book, if I remember correctly Salvatore only brings them up in the War of the Spider Queen series and that series has nothing to do with Drizzt.