166 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

arthurhallam wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I think the problem may be that some kind of space magic was only introduced and executed in the very end of the game, and without much of an explaination. When you started with ME1 you have seen alot of strange things, but you were new in the world and everything new to you was because you were new. At the end of ME3 we were pretty much familar with ME universe, so this 'new' thing was clearly breaking with the world we knew. And Shepard reacting rather unemotional to it didn't make it better. Shep should have been like 'WAIT WHAT? YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS!' but instead Shepard's reaction was 'Alright then.' Why? It didn't make sense, why not react accordingly.

i'd agree the ending is sloppy. i'm not here to defend the problems with the narrative. i find the ending to be a cop out anyway. i'd have rather never known the origins of the reapers. the catalyst is demystifying & boring. 

it's the annoying use of the phrase space magic that i'm confronting.

Well people use the term 'space magic' in context of plotholes. But if taken literally space magic is any kind of science in sci fi that doesn't match up with our real world science. It's just a matter of context.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 27 mars 2012 - 10:26 .

[arthurhallam]

Hexoskin wrote...

arthurhallam wrote...

Hexoskin wrote...

arthurhallam wrote...

Xandax wrote...

arthurhallam wrote...

I can't be the only one who checks in on this forum who wants to smash other users in the face whenever they try to derail any discussion of the game with the phrase "space magic"

What's more is how selective you are with what you do & do not consider to be space magic.

For instance, you are all, presumbly, perfectly happy with biotics. You're all, presumbly, happy with the entire premise of the Mass Effect, which isn't just an improbability, but bends the very notion of physics in ways that are simply not & will never be possible. & don't start flinging links to theoretical FTL technologies at me. I know the terrain. 

& you know what, I'm happy to take the leap with all that stuff because that's what Science Fiction demands. 

To top it all off, you have the audacity to disregard as trolls anybody who disagrees with this absurd retake movement.

I never thought this would happen with any creative work that i enjoy, but the fans of this game are actually making me resent the game. 

You don't seem to understand what space magic actuall is; whether by ignorance or simply refusal is then impossible to guess; but I'm sure many have their theories about why.

Space magic is something which does not make sense in the given setting; not something that doesn't make sense when viewing the setting from a real life perspective.

Therefore - Biotics isn't space magic anymore than 'the force' is in Star Wars.
What is space magic is Joker suddenly running away with your crew that was on Earth.
Space magic is to invent a 'God' that can Deus Ex your problems away if you cast yourself into a beam of light.


And the ending of Mass Effect 3 is full of space magic because it's full of things which make no sense when viewed in the context of the Mass Effect setting.

read the entire thread before repeating points that i've already dealt with.

If you've spent more than 5 minutes on these forums you'd know that by the time you've read through a thread, there's likely been 30+ new replies and you may just be reiterating what 25 of those said.

like i have the time to do that. i only get a few minutes a day at work to post on forums. 

Odd how you've spent 40 minutes on the forums then today, now, here.

Space magic?

browser tabs. 

[Hexoskin]

arthurhallam wrote...

Hexoskin wrote...

arthurhallam wrote...

Hexoskin wrote...

arthurhallam wrote...

Xandax wrote...

arthurhallam wrote...

I can't be the only one who checks in on this forum who wants to smash other users in the face whenever they try to derail any discussion of the game with the phrase "space magic"

What's more is how selective you are with what you do & do not consider to be space magic.

For instance, you are all, presumbly, perfectly happy with biotics. You're all, presumbly, happy with the entire premise of the Mass Effect, which isn't just an improbability, but bends the very notion of physics in ways that are simply not & will never be possible. & don't start flinging links to theoretical FTL technologies at me. I know the terrain. 

& you know what, I'm happy to take the leap with all that stuff because that's what Science Fiction demands. 

To top it all off, you have the audacity to disregard as trolls anybody who disagrees with this absurd retake movement.

I never thought this would happen with any creative work that i enjoy, but the fans of this game are actually making me resent the game. 

You don't seem to understand what space magic actuall is; whether by ignorance or simply refusal is then impossible to guess; but I'm sure many have their theories about why.

Space magic is something which does not make sense in the given setting; not something that doesn't make sense when viewing the setting from a real life perspective.

Therefore - Biotics isn't space magic anymore than 'the force' is in Star Wars.
What is space magic is Joker suddenly running away with your crew that was on Earth.
Space magic is to invent a 'God' that can Deus Ex your problems away if you cast yourself into a beam of light.


And the ending of Mass Effect 3 is full of space magic because it's full of things which make no sense when viewed in the context of the Mass Effect setting.

read the entire thread before repeating points that i've already dealt with.

If you've spent more than 5 minutes on these forums you'd know that by the time you've read through a thread, there's likely been 30+ new replies and you may just be reiterating what 25 of those said.

like i have the time to do that. i only get a few minutes a day at work to post on forums. 

Odd how you've spent 40 minutes on the forums then today, now, here.

Space magic?

browser tabs. 

Yea space magic.

[Dreadcall]

arthurhallam wrote...

which brings me back to the central point: people continuously using "space magic" to describe everything that they hate about the game, irrespective of other instances of "space magic" that they're willing to overlook.

Actually, that's just what it is. Someone just said it and it caught on. People use it on anything that does not make sense. You shouldn't think too much of it.

On the other hand, what it stems from:

Mac Walters: 'From very early on we wanted the science of the universe to be plausible. Obviously it's set in the future so you have to make some leaps of faith but we didn't want it to be just magic in space'.


Now, throughout the series you can see the effort to  provide explanation for just about everything that is not how it should be in the real world. Most of it is based on Eezo, a fictional material, with fictional properties. This is, for most people a leap of faith they can make. Then they ask you to make another leap of faith, out of the estabilished rules of the ME universe (this is the important part), that just doesn't work for most. 

[poundoffleshaa]

Mass Effect fields are the setting they are its defining characteristic and its way of achieving the impossible. In the mass effect universe Ezo and Mass Effect Fields are a science rather than magic in that using them is totally repeatable and reliable. So Biotics, FTL and Mass Relays are all explainable by the Science of the Mass Effect Universe. The synthesis ending isn't, there is no way controlling mass would allow you to randomly merge all synthetics and organics in the galaxy and not kill them. So not only was synthesis magic to us it was magic too the Mass Effect universe too aka "Space Magic".

Its all about Internal Consistency and the complete lack of it in the ending. 

Modifié par poundoffleshaa, 27 mars 2012 - 10:36 .

[arthurhallam]

Dreadcall wrote...

arthurhallam wrote...

which brings me back to the central point: people continuously using "space magic" to describe everything that they hate about the game, irrespective of other instances of "space magic" that they're willing to overlook.

Actually, that's just what it is. Someone just said it and it caught on. People use it on anything that does not make sense. You shouldn't think too much of it.

On the other hand, what it stems from:

Mac Walters: 'From very early on we wanted the science of the universe to be plausible. Obviously it's set in the future so you have to make some leaps of faith but we didn't want it to be just magic in space'.


Now, throughout the series you can see the effort to  provide explanation for just about everything that is not how it should be in the real world. Most of it is based on Eezo, a fictional material, with fictional properties. This is, for most people a leap of faith they can make. Then they ask you to make another leap of faith, out of the estabilished rules of the ME universe (this is the important part), that just doesn't work for most. 

i don't make too much of space magic in & of itself - it's the derailing tactic of forum users that i'm tackling. 

basically, if anybody has the audacity to discuss the ending in a way that suggests that they might not, like, totally hate it, within four posts somebody is chirping up with "space magic". it's annoying.

[Laurcus]

arthurhallam wrote...

I can't be the only one who checks in on this forum who wants to smash other users in the face whenever they try to derail any discussion of the game with the phrase "space magic"

What's more is how selective you are with what you do & do not consider to be space magic.

For instance, you are all, presumbly, perfectly happy with biotics. You're all, presumbly, happy with the entire premise of the Mass Effect, which isn't just an improbability, but bends the very notion of physics in ways that are simply not & will never be possible. & don't start flinging links to theoretical FTL technologies at me. I know the terrain. 

& you know what, I'm happy to take the leap with all that stuff because that's what Science Fiction demands. 

To top it all off, you have the audacity to disregard as trolls anybody who disagrees with this absurd retake movement.

I never thought this would happen with any creative work that i enjoy, but the fans of this game are actually making me resent the game. 

Biotics and the mass effect are fundamental parts of the setting that were established even before the first game was released. The introduction of the synthesis ending, (which is in my opinion the only part that qualifies as space magic) is never explained, and had no precedent.

The Mass Effect universe follows all standard Newtonian mechanics, with the addition of element zero and the mass effect. Without prior setup, the synthesis ending is an impossibility within the previously established rules of the setting.

For a good example, let's look at an inverse example from a more fantastical setting. Lord of the Rings.

Lord of the Rings is a magical world, and many things that happen are physically impossible in the real world. Hypothetically, what would have been the fan reaction if the War of the Ring was resolved by Aragorn randomly finding a Gundam or other Japanese style robot of mass destruction? Picture this scenario. The battle before the Black Gate happens, but instead of being saved by the Ring's destruction, Frodo fails, thus dooming the world. At the last moment, when all hope is lost, Aragorn reaches behind his back and pulls out a Gundam. He hops into the Gundam, destroys all the orcs, blows up Mount Doom, Sauron, and the Ring, and then flies off into the sunset.

What's wrong with that ending? Would fans be justified in being pissed at it?

[Skirlasvoud]

Xandurpein wrote...

Actually, the real reason so many people use the phrase "space magic" is pure irony, as in one the most often quoted interviews with the developers of Mass Effect 3, one of them specifically mentions that the story would be based in pseudo-science and not feel like space magic. Most of the grievances fans have about the ending comes from the fact that they have been hanging on every word the developers wrote prior to the release and now feel they have been cheated as the final product in many ways failed to live up to Bioware's hype.

Well said

[arthurhallam]

poundoffleshaa wrote...

Mass Effect fields are the setting they are its defining characteristic and its way of achieving the impossible. In the mass effect universe Ezo and Mass Effect Fields are a science rather than magic in that using them is totally repeatable and reliable. So Biotics, FTL and Mass Relays are all explainable by the Science of the Mass Effect Universe. The synthesis ending isn't, there is no way controlling mass would allow you to randomly merge all synthetics and organics in the galaxy and not kill them. So not only was synthesis magic to us it was magic too the Mass Effect universe too aka "Space Magic".

people are being to vulgar with the "science of the mass effect universe". 

they forget they had to take the leap in the first instance to believe that all that science could be a possibility. 

maybe the positioning of another leap in there understanding at the end was too much to ask. i don't know or care. 

but what i do know is that there is selective leap taking & intransigence occuring here.

[Rhyth]

arthurhallam wrote...

i don't make too much of space magic in & of itself - it's the derailing tactic of forum users that i'm tackling. 

basically, if anybody has the audacity to discuss the ending in a way that suggests that they might not, like, totally hate it, within four posts somebody is chirping up with "space magic". it's annoying.

Sounds like a personal problem to me. 

Can we please stop bumping this guy's post? Thanks.
He's just kind of avoiding the strong arguments and repeating himself over and over again.
Also, self contradiction seems to be this guy's best friend.

Modifié par Rhyth, 27 mars 2012 - 10:40 .

[arthurhallam]

Laurcus wrote...

arthurhallam wrote...

I can't be the only one who checks in on this forum who wants to smash other users in the face whenever they try to derail any discussion of the game with the phrase "space magic"

What's more is how selective you are with what you do & do not consider to be space magic.

For instance, you are all, presumbly, perfectly happy with biotics. You're all, presumbly, happy with the entire premise of the Mass Effect, which isn't just an improbability, but bends the very notion of physics in ways that are simply not & will never be possible. & don't start flinging links to theoretical FTL technologies at me. I know the terrain. 

& you know what, I'm happy to take the leap with all that stuff because that's what Science Fiction demands. 

To top it all off, you have the audacity to disregard as trolls anybody who disagrees with this absurd retake movement.

I never thought this would happen with any creative work that i enjoy, but the fans of this game are actually making me resent the game. 

Biotics and the mass effect are fundamental parts of the setting that were established even before the first game was released. The introduction of the synthesis ending, (which is in my opinion the only part that qualifies as space magic) is never explained, and had no precedent.

The Mass Effect universe follows all standard Newtonian mechanics, with the addition of element zero and the mass effect. Without prior setup, the synthesis ending is an impossibility within the previously established rules of the setting.

For a good example, let's look at an inverse example from a more fantastical setting. Lord of the Rings.

Lord of the Rings is a magical world, and many things that happen are physically impossible in the real world. Hypothetically, what would have been the fan reaction if the War of the Ring was resolved by Aragorn randomly finding a Gundam or other Japanese style robot of mass destruction? Picture this scenario. The battle before the Black Gate happens, but instead of being saved by the Ring's destruction, Frodo fails, thus dooming the world. At the last moment, when all hope is lost, Aragorn reaches behind his back and pulls out a Gundam. He hops into the Gundam, destroys all the orcs, blows up Mount Doom, Sauron, and the Ring, and then flies off into the sunset.

What's wrong with that ending? Would fans be justified in being pissed at it?

paradigm shifts disrupt an existing worldview. too bad you couldn't handle the one hoisted on you at the end of the game.

[effortname]

:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:

:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:SPACE MAGIC:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:
:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:

Modifié par effortname, 27 mars 2012 - 10:38 .

[Applepie_Svk]

I don´t have nothing more to say ...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 27 mars 2012 - 10:39 .

[Pairikas]

How can anybody not like Space Magic. Space Magic is the artistic Vision of Bioware... Love it!

[Gibb_Shepard]

OP, do people like you actually know anything about how to craft a fictional setting?

I'm absolutely baffled with you people. Biotics and EVERYTHING else in ME has been explained with implausible science, and has remained consistent throughout ME. Bringing in an unexplained new piece of technology doing unexplained things in the last 5 minutes is the biggest no-no any writer can do in their setting.

People refer to it as "space magic" because it is unexplained, unprecedented and inconsistent.

[arthurhallam]

Rhyth wrote...

arthurhallam wrote...

i don't make too much of space magic in & of itself - it's the derailing tactic of forum users that i'm tackling. 

basically, if anybody has the audacity to discuss the ending in a way that suggests that they might not, like, totally hate it, within four posts somebody is chirping up with "space magic". it's annoying.

Sounds like a personal problem to me. 

Can we please stop bumping this guy's post? Thanks.
He's just kind of avoiding the strong arguments and repeating himself over and over again.

what strong arguments? you've contributed nothing of value. nobody has made a strong argument. they're just using space magic as a tool to enforce their own distaste of certain narrative elements. 

[Darth Malice113]

effortname wrote...

:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:

:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:SPACE MAGIC:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:
:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:

Interesting.

[Peranor]

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...



It's easy to suspend disbelief when a clear set of rules and in-game-logic is set out before you. When the game itself defies its own (fictional) logic or rules with no explanation.... Well that's Space Magic.

I agree. Or as Mac Walters put it:

"From very on we wanted the science of the universe to be plausible. Obviously it's set in the future so you have to make some leaps of faith..."
 
And then he continued with:
"....but we didn't want it to be just Magic in Space"

[Xandax]

Erixxxx wrote...

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Doesn't fit in the usage of 'space magic' in this context.

[FatalX7.0]

Peete wrote...

You misunderstand what we mean by 'space magic'. FTL speeds, biotics, the mass effect realys are of course impossible according to the laws of physics. They are fictional and cannot exsist in the real world. But they exsist in Mass Effect.

That's fine. No problem. Their functions are clearly explained and we understand them. However, how do your squad mates in London suddenly get onboard the Normandy? Why is it running away? That is not explained anywhere.
That is space magic.

Your crew poofing from your side on Earth, and then onto the Normandy, who is then running away, is space magic.

Biotics and Mass Effect? Not necessarily.


What was that line of dialogue..it was with EDI.

Something about alternate universes, Mass Effect phenomenon, 1+1 = 3.

Point is, if there are different universes, they're physics, how everything works for them, could be completely different. I guess.

[effortname]

Darth Malice113 wrote...

Interesting.

Yes. Quite.

[Xandax]

anorling wrote...

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...



It's easy to suspend disbelief when a clear set of rules and in-game-logic is set out before you. When the game itself defies its own (fictional) logic or rules with no explanation.... Well that's Space Magic.

I agree. Or as Mac Walters put it:

"From very on we wanted the science of the universe to be plausible. Obviously it's set in the future so you have to make some leaps of faith..."
 
And then he continued with:
"....but we didn't want it to be just Magic in Space"

And funnily enough ... or tragically artistic .... it was what they ended up with.

[The Night Mammoth]

Space Magic is an internal story inconsistency. Mass Effect fields aren't plausible in the real world, but they're explained thoroughly in by characters and the Codex on numerous occasions, same with biotic abilities.

Somehow combining Sythetics and Organics into a new DNA by a green wave of energy is Space Magic. It happens, just, well, like, yeah, because it does. No other explanation is given. Mass effect fields were introduced very early on, explained completely, so it is taken as an immutable fact of the ME universe. The ending is enough to break a lot of people's suspensions of disbelief, it's a very obvious failing on the writer's part.

[Laurcus]

arthurhallam wrote...

Laurcus wrote...

arthurhallam wrote...

I can't be the only one who checks in on this forum who wants to smash other users in the face whenever they try to derail any discussion of the game with the phrase "space magic"

What's more is how selective you are with what you do & do not consider to be space magic.

For instance, you are all, presumbly, perfectly happy with biotics. You're all, presumbly, happy with the entire premise of the Mass Effect, which isn't just an improbability, but bends the very notion of physics in ways that are simply not & will never be possible. & don't start flinging links to theoretical FTL technologies at me. I know the terrain. 

& you know what, I'm happy to take the leap with all that stuff because that's what Science Fiction demands. 

To top it all off, you have the audacity to disregard as trolls anybody who disagrees with this absurd retake movement.

I never thought this would happen with any creative work that i enjoy, but the fans of this game are actually making me resent the game. 

Biotics and the mass effect are fundamental parts of the setting that were established even before the first game was released. The introduction of the synthesis ending, (which is in my opinion the only part that qualifies as space magic) is never explained, and had no precedent.

The Mass Effect universe follows all standard Newtonian mechanics, with the addition of element zero and the mass effect. Without prior setup, the synthesis ending is an impossibility within the previously established rules of the setting.

For a good example, let's look at an inverse example from a more fantastical setting. Lord of the Rings.

Lord of the Rings is a magical world, and many things that happen are physically impossible in the real world. Hypothetically, what would have been the fan reaction if the War of the Ring was resolved by Aragorn randomly finding a Gundam or other Japanese style robot of mass destruction? Picture this scenario. The battle before the Black Gate happens, but instead of being saved by the Ring's destruction, Frodo fails, thus dooming the world. At the last moment, when all hope is lost, Aragorn reaches behind his back and pulls out a Gundam. He hops into the Gundam, destroys all the orcs, blows up Mount Doom, Sauron, and the Ring, and then flies off into the sunset.

What's wrong with that ending? Would fans be justified in being pissed at it?

paradigm shifts disrupt an existing worldview. too bad you couldn't handle the one hoisted on you at the end of the game.

I can handle it just fine, I simply don't like it. It's not a world view, it's a work of fiction. If a trilogy has internal consistency for 99.9% of it, but throws it out in the last 5 minutes, that doesn't mean I can't handle it. I reserve my write to criticize, and in my opinion that's bad storytelling worthy of criticism.

[Darth Malice113]

effortname wrote...

Darth Malice113 wrote...

Interesting.

Yes. Quite.

Tell me more.