166 réponses à ce sujet

[Fruit of the Doom]

Greylycantrope wrote...

You're right, we should clarify by asking, "when did the Normandy get teleport technology?" to properly address the plothole

Not to mention "crash land on perfect garden world after coming out of a relay jump at presumably FTL speeds, with little hull damage and the crew in mint condition, including one with bones as fragile as chalk" technology.

[Nobrandminda]

"Space magic" bothers us because, to quote TVtropes: Magic A is Magic A.

We don't ask that Bioware stays within the bounds of physics, we only ask that they follow the rules they freaking made up.

A green beam of light that turns every organic life form "partially synthetic" breaks the rules of the Mass Effect universe.

Landing on an unknown planet with no negative reprocussions breaks the rules of the universe.

Characters teleporting all over the damn place breaks the rules of the Mass Effect universe.

Modifié par Nobrandminda, 28 mars 2012 - 03:08 .

[CDHarrisUSF]

I'll repost my comment from another thread about why the Synthesis option was stupid:

CDHarrisUSF wrote...

Generally speaking, the hallmark of good sci-fi is that one makes up a limited number of new rules or unique traits for the story's universe early on and then runs with them to their logical conclusions. The idea is that you start with our best current understanding of science, then take it a few hypothetical steps further while trying to sound at least plausible enough to pass a cursory inspection. You should try to keep the necessary suspensions of disbelief to a minimum and avoid introducing new rules at the last minute, if at all possible... especially plot-critical ones. If you get into that bad habit, the story becomes like watching two children in a battle of imaginations. Nothing can be predicted because you don't know what is or isn't possible until it happens. Nothing feels earned.

"Bang! I shot you!
"Nuh uh, I dodged it!"
"No you didn't, my gun has homing bullets!"
"Well, your bullets bounced off my force field."
... etc.

The series is named based on the main fictional science concept for a reason. Mass effect fields generated by element zero serve as the basis for most of the sci-fi handwaving. The next most important would be alien biology, but that doesn't technically require new science (unless you want it to when you're coming up with it). Anyway, back to eezo. It has one basic property. When electricity is applied to it, it creates a mass effect field which can increase or decrease the mass of matter within the field. Based on that you get biotics (species evolves eezo as part of its biology), FTL travel (eezo used to counteract relativistic speed's effect on mass), mass relays, artificial gravity, weapons, etc. Again, you take a simple concept and imagine all of the implications it could have.

The kicker is that it's not something BioWare just pulled out of their collective asses. It's actually a pretty old idea that there could be a force/energy which affects mass, that mass (and gravity) itself might even be caused by it. That is a good sci-fi concept on every level. It is simple, introduced right from the start, has far-reaching effects, and was extrapolated from a concept originating from physicists. Almost everything else is like stuff we have but a bit more advanced... AI, holographic displays, etc. Even the Lazarus Project was extrapolated from current bleeding-edge medical advances, which would be over a hundred years old by then. There are a few things which remain (intentionally) unexplained, one of which being how indoctrination actually works... but we don't know that due to lore reasons, since it only happens when Reapers get involved every 50k years or so.

chaosapiant wrote...

The logic can't be proven or disproven, and in the context of the game itself, I don't find it a stretch.

It's not up to us to make ourselves believe it. It's up to them to sell it to us enough that it flies under our bull**** radar. You don't find it a stretch that there is such a thing as synthetic DNA... despite no mention of it ever or any purpose for it before this? You don't find it a stretch that a pulse of energy instantaneously transmutes organic, chemical DNA into synthetic, electromechanical DNA and vice versa... with no prior mention of anything like this happening? You don't find it a stretch that indiscriminately mixing the ridiculous synthetic DNA and organic DNA won't break one or the other... when one minor change in the wrong place with DNA can cause fatal birth defects? You don't find it a stretch that this one pulse of energy knows how to cope with all of the countless variations of organic DNA (and its alien equivalents) flawlessly and simultaneously?

To top it all off, a "pure" race is likely to be reintroduced at some point in the future (either organic via abiogenesis or synthetic like we made before)... and history is replete with examples of "pure" vs "mixed" tension. Plus, organics have been incorporating synthetic parts for a while already in Mass Effect. So, it is patently ridiculous and it solves nothing. If I were drinking at the time that "solution" came up, I would have done a spit take.

[Johnnycide]

 

[Dreogan]

There are two types of magic in fiction: Gandalf magic and Asspull magic.

"Gandalf" magic represents a kind of magic that is solidly bound in the telling of a story, explained in such a way that it doesn't break the fictive dream. Biotics represent this in Mass Effect, as does element-zero. As this type of magic has a solid definition, it does not break the suspension of disbelief when it appears in the fictive universe: we were expecting it, we know what it looks like, and our mind knows how to handle it.

"Asspull" magic just happens. There's no established reason why it works, why it is so powerful, or why it acts the way it does. The Star-God-Child's space magic is an example of this. You could even argue the "teleportation" of Normandy crew members are an example of "asspull" magic. In other words, this magic exists because a storyteller invoked magic without a proper definition or unsuccessfully presented it to the audience. The result is this magic breaks the suspension of disbelief, shatters the fictive universe in the audience's mind, and the house of cards collapses.

The reason the synthesis asspull-magic ending is so reviled is it is a second dose of pissing on the suspension of disbelief. The first break during the conversation with the star-god-child mortally wounded the story for many-- any chance of redemption (or reconstruction of the universe in the audience's mind) is set on fire by the synthesis asspull.

*keep in mind it is possible for magic to exist in a story undefined or unknowable to the characters, but an audience will tend to reject that magic if it operates outside of author-defined boundaries. These boundaries don't always need to be spelled out directly, but magic does not grant a storyteller a blank check to make anything happen. It is this reason why deus ex machina is so reviled, why contrivances are considered weak storytelling, etc.

Modifié par Dreogan, 28 mars 2012 - 03:58 .

[Vaemer-Riit]

Nobrandminda wrote...

"Space magic" bothers us because, to quote TVtropes: Magic A is Magic A.

We don't ask that Bioware stays within the bounds of physics, we only ask that they follow the rules they freaking made up.

This, Bioware spent three games creating an internally consistant (mostly) universe only to throw everything out the window in the last 10 min of the game as well writing an infered holocaust into the ending that completely negates any choice you made.


To Quote TVTropes:

When authors use large and amazing technologies and world or even galaxy
spanning threats, they run the risk of letting the excitement of Stuff Blowing Up get the better of them and not think through how the survivors will make a living afterward.

[webhead921]

Making a giant metal robot out of melted humans is also space magic, and is much more stupid than anything that happened in ME3.

[Skyhawk02]

Rhyth wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

Yeah, biotics is the perfect counter when people call the endings space magic. Good Post.

Codex Entry - Biotics [Source: Mass Effect Codex]: Biotics is the ability of rare individuals to manipulate dark energy and create mass effect fields through the use of electrical impulses from the brain. Intense training and surgically-implanted amplifiers are necessary for a biotic to produce mass effect fields powerful enough for practical use. The relative strength of biotic abilities varies greatly among species and with each individual.There are three branches of biotics. TELEKINESIS uses mass-lowering fields to levitate or impel objects. Mass-raising KINETIC FIELDS are used to block or pin objects. DISTORTION uses rapidly shifting mass fields to shred objects.Most organic species are capable of developing biotic abilities, though there are risks involved. Biotics are the result of in-utero exposure to element zero. This usually causes fatal cancers in the victim, but in rare cases it coalesces into nodules within the fetus's developing nervous system.

Exactly, thanks for posting this, it sounds a lot like magic.

[Tocquevillain]

arthurhallam wrote...

I can't be the only one who checks in on this forum who wants to smash other users in the face whenever they try to derail any discussion of the game with the phrase "space magic"

+1

Too many people derailing otherwise interesting threads. Take your whining to a whining thread, but don't give new users with questions the same stupid answer. Just be informative. "Bioware is going to be updating us in April."

Modifié par Tocquevillain, 28 mars 2012 - 03:55 .

[AwesomeDudex64]

 

[Delta_V2]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

Exactly, thanks for posting this, it sounds a lot like magic.

Yes, biotics and eezo tech are basically space magic.  The difference is, they were introduced at the beginning of the series, and we were asked to accept them as possible for the sake of this fictional universe.  Compare that to the synthesis ending, which just comes out of left field, is never explained, and has zero consistency with the previously established lore.

[savionen]

This thread is space magic.

[Skyhawk02]

Delta_V2 wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

Exactly, thanks for posting this, it sounds a lot like magic.

Yes, biotics and eezo tech are basically space magic.  The difference is, they were introduced at the beginning of the series, and we were asked to accept them as possible for the sake of this fictional universe.  Compare that to the synthesis ending, which just comes out of left field, is never explained, and has zero consistency with the previously established lore.

compare that to shepard dying and coming back to life in ME2.  There was nothing in ME1 to suggest this was possible, yet people accepted it.  Actually the games have continually reinforced the idea that you can't come back from death, because whenever you die you have to load a previous save.

[Evenjelith]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

Rhyth wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

Yeah, biotics is the perfect counter when people call the endings space magic. Good Post.

Codex Entry - Biotics [Source: Mass Effect Codex]: Biotics is the ability of rare individuals to manipulate dark energy and create mass effect fields through the use of electrical impulses from the brain. Intense training and surgically-implanted amplifiers are necessary for a biotic to produce mass effect fields powerful enough for practical use. The relative strength of biotic abilities varies greatly among species and with each individual.There are three branches of biotics. TELEKINESIS uses mass-lowering fields to levitate or impel objects. Mass-raising KINETIC FIELDS are used to block or pin objects. DISTORTION uses rapidly shifting mass fields to shred objects.Most organic species are capable of developing biotic abilities, though there are risks involved. Biotics are the result of in-utero exposure to element zero. This usually causes fatal cancers in the victim, but in rare cases it coalesces into nodules within the fetus's developing nervous system.

Exactly, thanks for posting this, it sounds a lot like magic.

Biotics aren't , because they're Origin and Limits are set out from day One in the ME Universe. They're completely fictitious but established within the lore of the franchise. There is NO precedent for DNA changing light shows or teleportation however.

Modifié par Evenjelith, 28 mars 2012 - 04:10 .

[KiroKatashi]

I got the impression that OP was expressing his displeasure at people just using Space Magic as a response to anything that doesn't make sense. Getting annoyed at a catch phrase to completely end discussion on a subject instead of actually talking about it. That sort of thing.

[effortname]

space magic

Modifié par effortname, 28 mars 2012 - 06:18 .