71 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

 Can someone please elaborate for me how this works? 

I would have no questions if all demons/spirits did was possess a body, that makes sense as they live hosts life. 

But there were numerious occasions when a demon crossed the veil without a host actually being physical. 

I have a couple of problems with that ( as an example I will take a desire demon from the circle of magi, that was controlling a templar):

It would make sense if the desire demon was INSIDE the templar, controlling his body, while he would talk to himself in the fade.  But that was not the case, the desire demon was standing right there near the templar, and was physical, for she could have been harmed by steel. 
The thing is - demons can shapeshift in the fade to take the form they like, for all I know the desire demon could have a true form of a green talking cloud, and only appears as a woman, because that is desired. And if the demon can manifest in any shapeshifted form, she could as easily manifested as a real human, taking that form while crossing through the veil, then living a humans life, in which case they need not worry about the hosts at all.
Or even live in her body with horns and stuff, but still be physical and experience the world.
Or do demons really have one set TRUE physical form? 

I just don't get this. Help. 

Modifié par KainD, 27 mars 2012 - 08:29 .

[glitter_guld]

It works both ways. A mage doesn't have to be inside a demon to enter the fade. When you enter the fade you need to find an entrance and be able to be represented in some form within the fade. When you are killed in the fade, it is your representation dies and you become tranquil. That is the meaning of harrowing. The same with the demons. Those that can, can send a representation directly, if they know the entrance. Those that can't, look for a host. If a demon dies on a material plane, nothing happens, because they are supposedly already kind of tranquil, since emotions is what the Maker gave to material beings.

Modifié par glitter_guld, 27 mars 2012 - 06:17 .

[glitter_guld]

PS. As to why they can't look like humans. They probably can't because were not given the shapeshifting power for their representation on a material plane, by the maker. At least not all of them. So they come as they are.

Modifié par glitter_guld, 27 mars 2012 - 06:25 .

[thats1evildude]

There are three ways for a demon to "exist" in the mortal world:

1) A demon takes a host. Because of their connection to the mortal world, mages are the most obvious choice, but trees and corpses also make inviting targets.
2) A demon can enter the world through a tear in the Veil and, after doing so, adapts to affect the world around it as a shade.
3) Blood mages can grant physical form to demons when they summon them from the Fade.

Awakening offered a fourth option, though this one is exceedingly rare: demons can take physical form if they've absorbed enough power (ie. the Baroness).

[Lynata]

From the RPG books:

"The demons of the Fade have a terrible hunger for the pleasures of the world that they sense across the gulf of the Veil. Their jealousy causes them to claw at the walls of their perceived prison, forever testing the boundaries of the Fade. When a demon finally manages to break through, it must immediately seek out a form to possess lest it be pulled back across the Veil to the Fade. Unfortunately for the demons, the Veil is weakest in places where there have been a great many deaths, such as battlefields and pestilence-ridden villages, and many demons end up possessing the forms of the dead. The rage and frustration of such beings is near unimaginable. To have finally broken through to the world of the living with all the delicious pleasures it holds only to be trapped within a corpse that can barely sustain itself is infuriating. Almost uniformly, these demons go insane, abandoning even the strange reasoning of their kind for howling madness."

+

"[...] However it occurs, malevolent spirits (such as demons) that wish to enter the world of the living are drawn to mages like beacons. Should a mage encounter such a demon in the Fade, it will attempt to possess him. Some demons try to use force, but others cajole or trick their prey, offering power or nearly anything to get their way.
The result is inevitably the same: an abomination is created. This is the name given to possessed mages, though it is not a physical possession. The demon is still in the Fade, but so is the mage's own spirit; the demon twists and controls the mage's body through that captive spirit. The demon sees through the body's eyes, channels his power through it, and is able to use the mage's magic in ways the captive would never have imagined."

Now, the Veil is also weak around mage towers, because of magic - so it may be that once a demon has slipped through in such special places, the "pull" on him isn't as strong as it would normally be, allowing them to maintain their form longer than it'd otherwise be possible. It should also be considered that the mages themselves could have provided special means to prolong the demons' stay, after all they have been summoned so that they may fight for Uldred.

And since possession isn't physical, in the example you mentioned the demon itself has simply crossed over into the mortal world and taken on solid form whilst retaining control of the templar's body, whose spirit is still trapped in the Fade.

This way, everything makes sense, I think.

As far as the demon's form is concerned, this seems to depend on the demon in question - or rather which emotion it has chosen to emulate. Demons only know the mortal world by the twisted and unreal memories that the sleepers bring into the Fade when they dream, so the form they take in the end may look somewhat ... weird.

Modifié par Lynata, 27 mars 2012 - 06:40 .

[KainD]

I am going to tight all of this together:

glitter_guld wrote...

PS. As to why they can't look like humans. They probably can't because were not given the shapeshifting power for their representation on a material plane, by the maker. At least not all of them. So they come as they are.

So they DO have their OWN material form then? 

thats1evildude wrote...

3) Blood mages can grant physical form to demons when they summon them from the Fade.

Awakening offered a fourth option, though this one is exceedingly rare: demons can take physical form if they've absorbed enough power (ie. the Baroness).

So demons can take their OWN material form to feel the material realm with their OWN body? 

Lynata wrote...

And since possession isn't physical, in the example you mentioned the demon itself has simply crossed over into the mortal world and taken on solid form whilst retaining control of the templar's body, whose spirit is still trapped in the Fade.

But they need a host to do that still, the one they are going to be connected with? 



So basically, a blood mage could summon a demon in it's true physical form, but at the same time that demon would be connected to the blood mage still, so the demon would be IN the blood mage and have a physical form at the same time, so they could communicate telepathicaly? And should the blood mage die, demon would cease to exist in physical form? 

Does that mean Justice could for example try to walk OUT of Anders while still being a part of Anders in the fade? 

Does all of this make sense?


PS: Wasn't the Baroness a possessed by a pride demon mage? And thus not rare at all?

Modifié par KainD, 27 mars 2012 - 07:18 .

[Lynata]

KainD wrote...
So they DO have their OWN material form then?

I'd say yes - it is the Fade made manifest, just like a mage's magic is its own "material form".

KainD wrote...
But they need a host to do that still, the one they are going to be connected with?

No, I do not think they need a host to cross over. They need a host if they want to stay.
All they need to cross over is an opening in the Veil - these can sometimes be found "just like that" in the open world, but usually they get help via the summoning ritual of a mage.

Alternatively, they can try to possess a mage's spirit in the Fade and basically "link up" to their bodies. The result could be the same - this would explain how some mages in DA2 can "insta-switch" into demon form, or why Pharamond begins to show demonic features as a side-effect of his possession.

KainD wrote...
So basically, a blood mage could summon a demon in it's true physical form, but at the same time that demon would be connected to the blood mage still, so the demon would be IN the blood mage and have a physical form at the same time, so they could communicate telepathicaly? And should the blood mage die, demon would cease to exist in physical form?

I'd say no. When the blood mage summons a demon, all he does is opening the door. The demon, however, can still attempt to possess the blood mage afterwards...

"Three months later, the mages summoned a demon and turned it loose against their templar watchers. Demons, however, are not easily controlled. After killing the first wave of templars who tried to contain it, the demon took possession of one of its summoners. The resulting abomination slaughtered templars and mages both before escaping into the countryside."

KainD wrote...
Does that mean Justice could for example try to walk OUT of Anders while still being a part of Anders in the fade?

Hum - well, since possession apparently isn't physical, I don't think he could do that. The Spirit of Justice has never left the Fade, it "just" seems to share a permanent connection to Anders' soul, and with it his body. Like demonic possession, just ... more open, like a shared experience. Perhaps this is what makes Anders' personality change over time - the fact that Justice hasn't forced himself upon his body (wow, this sounds dirty) but rather that he allows to share it with him, but in doing so the combination is tainting them both with bits of each other's identity. Who knows, perhaps Justice and Anders are already one in the Fade!

In theory, I suppose Justice could still cross over from the Fade in material shape, but given how he already has an anchor in Anders he wouldn't have to gain anything from it - he'd just be pulled back again and left to act via Anders' body. Could be an interesting "backup ability" for when Anders feels pressed, though?

In a way, it'd be like a demon or a spirit summoning itself. 

Perhaps he would do the insta-switch I mentioned above, twisting Anders' body into a new shape more in line with Justice'/Vengeance's "Fade appearance".

KainD wrote...
PS: Wasn't the Baroness a possessed by a pride demon mage? And thus not rare at all?

It seems as if Justice states that the Baroness became a pride demon due to the long time her spirit spent in the Fade. Quite an interesting case!
Note that I'm relying on another player's comments in the talk page of the Baroness' wiki article here - it has been to long since I played DA:O myself to remember this detail. There is also fairly little background given. It could just as well be that the Baroness was possessed but then somehow merged with the demon like Anders did with Justice?

In general, much of the above is merely deductions from what I've read, so take with a bit of salt. 

Modifié par Lynata, 27 mars 2012 - 07:56 .

[glitter_guld]

We do not know what do they feel if they feel anything at all. We (players, readers) don't know even what human mages feel while in the fade. In terms of physical feelings, that is. Demons are mental beings - rage, despair, pride. They may live in a completely different universe of feelings. In order to "feel" physical, they might need a human host. Even then, I am not sure. Maybe physical feelings for them is like X-Ray for us.

[KainD]

I have a couple more questions:

1) Do you think there might be some balanced demons/spirits, that are not JUST rage, or JUST justice, but something that represents a little bit of this and that, something that has more character to it?

2) Do you think a spirit can take it's host to the fade, as the host takes the demon to the mortal realm? By that I mean, physically "teleport" the host into the fade.

We don't know of course, but logically, if we were to speculate.

[Lynata]

Hey, I like speculating. 

KainD wrote...
1) Do you think there might be some balanced demons/spirits, that are not JUST rage, or JUST justice, but something that represents a little bit of this and that, something that has more character to it?

The way I see it, the Fade is a realm of extremes. Most spirits are barely intelligent at all, and those who are seem to focus entirely on one thing they have "seen" people dream about - to the extent that all they can think about is this.

Basically, imagine a thirsty man walking through the desert, only that he can constantly see a glass of cold water in the distance - he won't care much about anything else. I'm not sure if this would change if the demon would spend more time in the real world (like Justice), but I think it is possible that by then it might be "too late". Their focus is like an imprint they take on at some point in their existence.

KainD wrote...
2) Do you think a spirit can take it's host to the fade, as the host takes the demon to the mortal realm? By that I mean, physically "teleport" the host into the fade.

Physically? No. The Fade is a spiritual realm where the laws of physics do not apply - or rather, they are fluent. Whilst the above is speculation, I am fairly certain on this one.

[thats1evildude]

KainD wrote...

So demons can take their OWN material form to feel the material realm with their OWN body?

Yes, but the circumstances that allowed the Baroness to do so were very rare. She sapped energy from the people of the Blackmarsh trapped in the Fade for nearly a century; having so much power gave her true substance in the mortal world. But this was totally unintended on her part, and she's as surprised as the Warden that she can appear in her true form within the mortal realm.

KainD wrote...

PS: Wasn't the Baroness a possessed by a pride demon mage? And thus not rare at all?

It's not clear whether the Baroness was possessed by a pride demon or eventually BECAME a pride demon.

KainD wrote...

So they DO have their OWN material form then?

Sort of. Keep in mind that the Fade is not a physical realm and that spirits are not like people. They only exist as ideas — beings of pure thought and emotion. A demon could look like anything it wanted but its "true form" will always be shaped by the emotion they represent.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 mars 2012 - 08:24 .

[glitter_guld]

Well, taking Anders as an example, we can assume that demons can modify their "natural" self. However, this modification is linear, i.e. it is either + or - along the same spirit line - vengeance-justice. Vengeance is not exactly a good term for justice with the minus sign, but that is what it supposed to be inside Anders. So, presumably, mental feelings of the host can potentially shift a demon towards a spirit and backwards. Not both at the same time, and only along the same line. All are speculations, of course.

[KainD]

Lynata wrote...

Physically? No. The Fade is a spiritual realm where the laws of physics do not apply - or rather, they are fluent. Whilst the above is speculation, I am fairly certain on this one.

But Tevinter Magisters entered the fade physically. Or is golden/black city physical?

[thats1evildude]

KainD wrote...

But Tevinter Magisters entered the fade physically. Or is golden/black city physical?

No, it's still a mental realm. The magisters achieved what should have been impossible.

Before Legacy, I would have said that the incongruity of physical beings in a realm of pure thought is what caused the corruption of the Golden City. Now I wonder if it wasn't the cause of the Magisters turning into darkspawn.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 mars 2012 - 08:30 .

[glitter_guld]

Baroness could not become a demon. Demons are creations of the Maker, just like humans. Nobody but the Maker can transform one into another. She was probably first possessed and then, totally lost her initial self.

[KainD]

glitter_guld wrote...

Baroness could not become a demon. Demons are creations of the Maker, just like humans. Nobody but the Maker can transform one into another. She was probably first possessed and then, totally lost her initial self.

Or her and the demon became one. I don't see why that isn't possible.

[thats1evildude]

glitter_guld wrote...

Baroness could not become a demon. Demons are creations of the Maker, just like humans. Nobody but the Maker can transform one into another. She was probably first possessed and then, totally lost her initial self.

Are they? Demons claim there is no Maker. While some spirits believe there is such a being, Justice himself admits that he doesn't know one way or the other. Does the Maker truly exist?

I'd be interested in hearing what the elves say on the matter, but unfortunately, the devs have frustratingly silent on this point.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 mars 2012 - 08:36 .

[KainD]

I am actually thinking of what would be the most rational easy-going demon to connect with.
It seems that joining with a demon gives a lot to the mage, and can be very beneficial, but at the same time one has to find a demon that won't go overboard, so that it doesn't have to be fought constantly like vengeance.

I wonder if it is possible to strike a rational calm deal with a demon, something like:
"You want to see the mortal realm? Sure, be my guest come on in, just don't go all crazy on me, I'll show you the world."
And the demon could share knowledge of the fade and magic and a whole bunch of other interesting things.

[glitter_guld]

Its in the Codex. Knowledge. First Children of the Maker. They were cast aside. Clearly they renounced Him. Just like grown up children, who don't want to see their father, who left them alone with someone else, while they were young.

[thats1evildude]

glitter_guld wrote...

Its in the Codex. Knowledge. First Children of the Maker. They were cast aside. Clearly they renounced Him. Just like grown up children, who don't want to see their father, who left them alone with someone else, while they were young.

None of the Codexes are absolutely, 100 per cent accurate; more often than not, they simply represent a viewpoint, and in this case, that Codex was written by a member of the Chantry. Do you think the qunari share the same beliefs about spirits and demons? Do the Dalish elves?

[glitter_guld]

Demons and spirits have a sad story. They were happy and then, they were thrown away. They remind me Geth from ME3, where they (Geth) were begging creators to explain where they were wrong. But, the Maker did not see them "alive".

[Lynata]

thats1evildude wrote...
Before Legacy, I would have said that the incongruity of physical beings in a realm of pure thought is what caused the corruption of the Golden City. Now I wonder if it wasn't the cause of the Magisters turning into darkspawn.

Hmm, you mean physical bodies being subjected to the laws of an ever-changing plane? When mortal spirits visit the Fade they always do so with their actual bodies protected from the effects of such a location, as they remain behind and not subjected to the Fade's "lack of consistency". But if a body were to be transported into the Fade, it could become warped and twisted by the raw power of creation. Basically ... mutating them.

An interesting theory!

Did the Magisters really visit the Golden City in the physical form, by the way? I thought they merely discovered a way to have their souls bridge the distance between it and the Fade's "base plane". Or would it be possible that the Golden/Black City is another material realm separated by the immaterial Fade like two continents are separated by an ocean, or rather two planets by empty space? I sense a lot of potential in these questions. I wonder if the writers will ever delve deeper into these mysteries ... though I also wonder if some things wouldn't be better off remaining unexplained and thus mysterious, hrm.

KainD wrote...
I am actually thinking of what would be the most rational easy-going demon to connect with.

I think that, unfortunately, any emotion, including all benign ones, can be turned to evil if pursued in extreme. Which seems to be the big risk of "sharing" a body with them. :/

Otherwise it could be an interesting way to prevent demonic possession ... simply "invite" a good spirit into your body, so that it is occupied when a bad one shows up! Well, if it actually works like this. Maybe both the spirit and the demon would also fight against each other for control of their vessel or something, the benign spirit acting like a guardian angel. Actually, scratch that, I just remembered how it didn't seem to make a difference in the one example where exactly this happened.

Modifié par Lynata, 27 mars 2012 - 08:53 .

[glitter_guld]

thats1evildude wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

Its in the Codex. Knowledge. First Children of the Maker. They were cast aside. Clearly they renounced Him. Just like grown up children, who don't want to see their father, who left them alone with someone else, while they were young.

None of the Codexes are absolutely, 100 per cent accurate; more often than not, they simply represent a viewpoint, and in this case, that Codex was written by a member of the Chantry. Do you think the qunari share the same beliefs about spirits and demons? Do the Dalish elves?

Codex is irrelevant. I made my own understanding based on the codex and the other data. Just like I do with any religion, Qun included.

I simply speak my opinion. I am not a priest to lay the Truth apon people.

[KainD]

Lynata wrote...

I think that, unfortunately, any emotion, including all benign ones, can be turned to evil if pursued in extreme. Which seems to be the big risk of "sharing" a body with them. :/

Otherwise it could be an interesting way to prevent demonic possession ... simply "invite" a good spirit into your body, so that it is occupied when a bad one shows up! Well, if it actually works like this. Maybe both the spirit and the demon would also fight against each other for control of their vessel or something, the benign spirit acting like a guardian angel. Actually, scratch that, I just remembered how it didn't seem to make a difference in the one example where exactly this happened.

I mean, what if I invite say a desire demon, and say: "If you want to see the world, you don't have to trick me. I won't try to trick or use you either. I just give you what you want and you give me what I want." 

And say if I wanted love, or arcane secrets she would give me that. And I could pereodically give her control over my body so she does what she likes. No pressure, no struggle over my "vessel", everything rational and calm. I can explain to her how the material world works, so she won't be completely awkward and won't slaughter people randomly in the street. 

Maybe I could even, as mentioned above, call her fourth in her physical form using blood magic, and be her anchor in the physical world, so she isn't sucked back. 


I mean how is this bad? 

[glitter_guld]

You will die.