71 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

glitter_guld wrote...

You will die.

Why?

[glitter_guld]

Demons are not generally interested in survival of their host, even if they depend on it. They are more interested in evoking their emotion. Once she (desire) had you, she will move forward to other people, in your case, provoking desire by all means. You will be the tool and will have to deal with the consequences.

[KainD]

glitter_guld wrote...

Demons are not generally interested in survival of their host, even if they depend on it. They are more interested in evoking their emotion. Once she (desire) had you, she will move forward to other people, in your case, provoking desire by all means. You will be the tool and will have to deal with the consequences.

That is not correct. They depend on their emotion TO get into the physical world, to have an anchor. their primary focus is to cross the veil, emotions are a tool to feed from. Once she crosses the veil with me, she could care less about other people or emotions, her mission is complete and she is going to enjoy. 

A lot of times the host could care less about the demon, so they still have to provoke the emotion in the host to strengthen their hold on the host. I would take care of her desires myself, no need to hold me or trcik me, I will be a welcoming host.

Modifié par KainD, 27 mars 2012 - 09:24 .

[Lynata]

KainD wrote...
I mean how is this bad? 

Given how demons "operate", I'd presume that the demon would simply want more and more and, sooner or later, overpower her host. Desire demons in particular are the essence of Desire; they feed of it and would use your body to indulge in this feast, without actually having a reason to let go again.

Mere speculation, of course, but why would the demon honour such a deal? By offering your body as a vessel to possess, you're only opening up a shortcut for the demon - direct occupation rather than having to bother with negotiations and manipulation. Though for a desire demon, the mage's own desire might be part of the game...

[KainD]

Lynata wrote...

KainD wrote...
I mean how is this bad? 

Given how demons "operate", I'd presume that the demon would simply want more and more and, sooner or later, overpower her host. Desire demons in particular are the essence of Desire; they feed of it and would use your body to indulge in this feast, without actually having a reason to let go again.

Mere speculation, of course, but why would the demon honour such a deal? By offering your body as a vessel to possess, you're only opening up a shortcut for the demon - direct occupation rather than having to bother with negotiations and manipulation. Though for a desire demon, the mage's own desire might be part of the game...

Well she well get as much as I can offer. There are only so many things a human is capable of doing in the mortal realm, of course a mage can go further. Boundaries are always there, and desire demons understand that too, they have their own boundaries in the fade, and should be familiar with those. I don't see why we can't make a healthy bond, that would actually offer her more, than her merely controlling my body without myself.

You are correct, my own desire would feed her always. Why not honor a mutually beneficial deal? 

[glitter_guld]

OK. As you would like it. We will leave it to all the bloodmages you killed in Kirkwall.

[KainD]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Spirits/demons are driven by the way they are (positive or negative).
Justice was supposed to be positive but merged with Anders and became negative (vengeance)
Sloth (for excample) is negative. If it posseses a body it's only goal is to experience the world it envies from across the veil in the fade and to be part of it using its hosts body. It will use persuasion/bribery to get it.
So conclusion there's no pact to be made with a spirit/demon that will not kill you eventually.

Spirits are not interested in the mortal realm, Justice was just caught be accident. And then letter became interested, as he found a purpose for him to be, and made himself a "mission".

You just said that the only goal of Sloth is to experince the world in envies. And what I said is: "Welcome! Be my guest, experience the world! But do so smart, we can help each other."

Demons are not completely stupid now are they? How would it kill me?

[Lynata]

Well, how do you believe the demon will "feed"? Because she'll try to take as much as she can.

So why honour an agreement to be in control from time to time when she can have your body for herself 100%?

Modifié par Lynata, 27 mars 2012 - 09:40 .

[KainD]

glitter_guld wrote...

OK. As you would like it. We will leave it to all the bloodmages you killed in Kirkwall.

Those weren't interested in rational pacts. They were selfish, powerhungry or desperate. That's not a proper way to get possessed.

[KainD]

Lynata wrote...

Well, how do you believe the demon will "feed"? Because she'll try to take as much as she can.

We ALL try to take as much as we can. As people, what we do is try to make our living the best way possible, it is a natural rational desire. She will be a part of my life, which is completely new and exiting to her.

Edit: Because that is not what I desire, because that's not nice and because it's better to not be alone in the new world.   

Also won't she be feeling what I feel anyway? Like the one with the templar at the circle? Also if I can summon her physically, that solves all problems.

I know all this might sound like playing with a lion, but it is so exiting! I mean, maybe if I am nice, I will get nice in return. :innocent:

Modifié par KainD, 27 mars 2012 - 09:45 .

[thats1evildude]

KainD wrote...

I mean, what if I invite say a desire demon, and say: "If you want to see the world, you don't have to trick me. I won't try to trick or use you either. I just give you what you want and you give me what I want." 

And say if I wanted love, or arcane secrets she would give me that. And I could pereodically give her control over my body so she does what she likes. No pressure, no struggle over my "vessel", everything rational and calm. I can explain to her how the material world works, so she won't be completely awkward and won't slaughter people randomly in the street.

That's not how it works. You can't "rent out space" in your brain to a demon; once it's possessed you, then you're an abomination, a merging of the two beings. The demon has full control over your body, and while it might relinquish that control for a short time, that's only when it suits the demon's purposes.

Also, the demon has full access to the knowledge of its host. Demons don't become murderous horrors because they don't understand how the mortal world works; that's just how they are. They're purely evil in every sense of the world.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 mars 2012 - 09:48 .

[KainD]

thats1evildude wrote...

That's not how it works. You can't "rent out space" in your brain to a demon; once it's possessed you, then you're an abomination, a merging of the two beings. The demon has full control over your body, and while it might relinquish that control for a short time, that's only because it suits the demon's purposes.

Also, the demon has full access to the knowledge of its host. Demons don't become murderous horrors because they don't understand how the mortal world works; that's just how they are.

What makes me lesser in my body than the demon? If we are one, then we are one. If we are not then we are seperate things. If I merge with a demon into one, then I get the demons knowledge as well, and get to use the demons power at my whim, our whim. 

Also not all demons are murderous horrors, so far.

Modifié par KainD, 27 mars 2012 - 09:51 .

[Lynata]

What I'd speculate for such a case is the desire demon simply keeping the possessed body as a vessel 24/7 and going about to feed off others, possibly creating a network of people addicted to whatever she can provide them with. Surrendering the mage's body again serves her no purpose, and indeed would hamper her abilities to play her game.

Also, whilst we all do try to take as much as we can, we are hampered by self-preservation and morale. Demons do not seem to possess either.

KainD wrote...
If I merge with a demon into one, then I get the demons knowledge as well, and get to use the demons power at my whim, our whim.

This might be possible, depending on how the Baroness works. You wouldn't quite be "you" anymore, of course. Just like Anders wasn't able to stop himself ... and that was at an early stage of possession.

You know, I just finished playing through Mass Effect 1 last night, and this discussion reminds me a little of Saren and Reaper indoctrination.

Modifié par Lynata, 27 mars 2012 - 09:55 .

[KainD]

Lynata wrote...

What I'd speculate for such a case is the desire demon simply keeping the possessed body as a vessel 24/7 and going about to feed off others, possibly creating a network of people addicted to whatever she can provide them with. Surrendering the mage's body again serves her no purpose, and indeed would hamper her abilities to play her game.

Also, whilst we all do try to take as much as we can, we are hampered by self-preservation and morale. Demons do not seem to possess either.

What would be the purpose of her getting people addicted to anything? It is pointless now, she already is in the mortal realm.

Here's an analogy:

Car - what I want. ( for demon it's mortal world ).
Money - what I need for the car ( for demon it's emotions ).
If I don't need food like the demon, then when I get my car I won't work for money anymore. Maybe money is a bad analogy, because we use money for a lot of things, but demons only want one thing - experience the world. No?

[KainD]

Lynata wrote...

KainD wrote...
If I merge with a demon into one, then I get the demons knowledge as well, and get to use the demons power at my whim, our whim.

This might be possible, depending on how the Baroness works. You wouldn't quite be "you" anymore, of course. Just like Anders wasn't able to stop himself ... and that was at an early stage of possession.

You know, I just finished playing through Mass Effect 1 last night, and this discussion reminds me a little of Saren and Reaper indoctrination.

The way I see it, it's like 2 geth platforms - they can share all their data, but they are still seperate, they both feel each other, and can interact with each other. 

[Lynata]

KainD wrote...
What would be the purpose of her getting people addicted to anything? It is pointless now, she already is in the mortal realm.

Simply getting to the mortal realm isn't enough. She is still a desire demon, she will continue to feed on desire. This is her existence, that's what defines her. In fact, as quoted on page 1, this is the sole reason they want to cross the Veil in the first place.

I mean, just look at Allure.

[thats1evildude]

KainD wrote...

What makes me lesser in my body than the demon? If we are one, then we are one. If we are not then we are seperate things. If I merge with a demon into one, then I get the demons knowledge as well, and get to use the demons power at my whim.

That's just how it works. The demon always gets control. No, scratch that — the demon always takes control of a mortal host. It is inevitable.

This is, incidentally, backed up in the Scrolls of Banastor:

The creatures, these demons, require little in the way of bribery. Their natural state is one of longing for the world of flesh and blood. This is what you offer them: respite from their eternal search for true life. Engage them in a battle of wills, and you will be successful. Should you fail, the power will be yours, but your body will belong to the demon. Relish this infernal power while it lasts, for once you are an abomination, your demon half will soon swallow your mind. 

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 mars 2012 - 10:03 .

[KainD]

Lynata wrote...

KainD wrote...
What would be the purpose of her getting people addicted to anything? It is pointless now, she already is in the mortal realm.

Simply getting to the mortal realm isn't enough. She is still a desire demon, she will continue to feed on desire. This is her existence, that's what defines her. In fact, as quoted on page 1, this is the sole reason they want to cross the Veil in the first place.

I mean, just look at Allure.

Allure has no host, she was feeding in order to surive in the mortal realm. 

"Simply" getting into the mortal realm IS enough, because that is already not SIMPLY. 

"Simply" getting into the mortal realm already means that she is watching the sunset, feeling the rain, hearing the birds sing, tasting the food, experiencing emotions, the body, the adrenaline, the how magic works in real world, the wind breeze, it's freeking a LOT, actually. And a lot more to discover. 

[KainD]

thats1evildude wrote...

That's just how it works. The demon always gets control. No, scratch that — the demon always takes control of a mortal host. It is inevitable.

This is, incidentally, backed up in the Scrolls of Banastor:

The creatures, these demons, require little in the way of bribery. Their natural state is one of longing for the world of flesh and blood. This is what you offer them: respite from their eternal search for true life. Engage them in a battle of wills, and you will be successful. Should you fail, the power will be yours, but your body will belong to the demon. Relish this infernal power while it lasts, for once you are an abomination, your demon half will soon swallow your mind. 

Well then I will have to engage in a battle of wills then, and keep myself to myself. I just don't see the point. the demon get's her world, what more does she need? Why would she "destroy" her own host? 

[TEWR]

Lynata wrote...

KainD wrote...
What would be the purpose of her getting people addicted to anything? It is pointless now, she already is in the mortal realm.

Simply getting to the mortal realm isn't enough. She is still a desire demon, she will continue to feed on desire. This is her existence, that's what defines her. In fact, as quoted on page 1, this is the sole reason they want to cross the Veil in the first place.

I mean, just look at Allure.

Additionally, Sophia Dryden's Pride possessed corpse -- if she was allowed to roam the continent after Soldier's Peak -- has a bunch of crazed and bewitched blood mages following her.

Demons don't just want to exist in the mortal realm. They also want to enslave the mortal realm. To varying degrees anyway. One demon may just want one slave, while another will want hundreds.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 mars 2012 - 10:11 .

[KainD]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Demons don't just want to exist in the mortal realm. They also want to enslave the mortal realm.

That's actually speculation. What does enslaving people offer demons? How does that make their experience more enjoyable? Also demons are kinda different, the emotion they feed from still isn't all they are. 

Modifié par KainD, 27 mars 2012 - 10:11 .

[Lynata]

KainD wrote...
Allure has no host, she was feeding in order to surive in the mortal realm.

I don't think so, she was perfectly fine until she was discovered. She survived simply because the Veil seems to have been extremely weak there, or maybe it was the magic - it was a Tevinter ruin, after all. Either way, it was not enough for her to simply "be". She seems to have taken up her old habits quickly.

KainD wrote...
"Simply" getting into the mortal realm already means that she is watching the sunset, feeling the rain, hearing the birds sing, tasting the food, experiencing emotions, the body, the adrenaline, the how magic works in real world, the wind breeze, it's freeking a LOT, actually. And a lot more to discover.

But all of this means nothing to a demon of desire. Desire is their singular focus, this is what it is after and what it will pursue with all her might. And when it cannot feed off you - or when it cannot feed off you as much as it could from the "network" I mentioned, then the only use your body has is to serve as a vessel of transportation.

If demons would be okay with the stuff you listed, don't you think all those abominations would be a little more peaceful?

[TEWR]

It's not speculation. The Baroness wants to enslave the population. Connor's desire demon wants to enslave the population. Sophia Dryden wanted to enslave the population. And other demons have said the same thing

We have numerous demons that all wanted to enslave the population. In their own ways certainly, but nevertheless they wanted to enslave the world.