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[thats1evildude]

KainD wrote...

Also not all demons are murderous horrors, so far.

Name one that wasn't.

That desire demon from the Circle tower? She was perfectly OK with letting that man starve to death and refused to let him go.

[TEWR]

The sloth demon in the Mage Origin wasn't a murderous horror. He was too lazy to do much of anything except be a bereskarn.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The sloth demon in the Mage Origin wasn't a murderous horror. He was too lazy to do much of anything except be a bereskarn.

Unless you believe (as I do) that he was actually working for "Mouse" and that the whole riddle contest was part of the pride demon's elaborate con game.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 mars 2012 - 10:20 .

[KainD]

It just doesn't make sense. If demons are not interested in experiencing the world for what is is in it's nature sense, then it is completely pointless. If they are just angry at people because maker liked them more, then they wouldn't hurt a person that doesn't consider them inferior. If all they want to do is enslave people, then I don't understand the point of that, and what value it holds.

[thats1evildude]

Your mistake is thinking of these creatures as people. They're not. A demon is simply the personification of an ideal. A pride demon wants to rule over others because it is prideful. A hunger demon wants to consume others because it is hungry. A rage demon wants to kill everything around it because it is enraged. But because the Fade is a realm of pure thought, their actions have no consequence; you could create an entire kingdom and it could vanish the second you stopped thinking about it. The mortal realm offers demons permanence.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 mars 2012 - 10:33 .

[KainD]

thats1evildude wrote...

Your mistake is thinking of these creatures as people. They're not.

But that is exactly what I thought, that is it the OTHER way around. That they all have personalities, but focus on a power source for them to get into the physical world, hense why they can change their focus, their "nature". I believe that rage would be means to enter the mortal realm for a rage demon, and that if the rage demon could stay anyway, it could care less about rage. Desire demon could care less about desire, once she is permenetely in the mortal realm. I think all of those emotions are anchors that give the demons power to sustain themselves through mortals. 

Thus my point - I support the demon in this world with my magic, because I want to, not because I have to, or because I am controlled by the emotion, but because I choose to, and the demons rage/desire becomes null, unless I want to endoulge in it myself. The thing that is going to keep the demon is what I choose myself, as I am a person, and now the demon is a part of me. 

Edit: I mean if demons had no personality what so ever they would talk like Sandal.

Rage demon: RAGE! RAGE!
Desire demon: Your Desire? YOUR DESIRE?? 
Pride demon: I, I, I! ME ME! 

But they can actually hold a conversation. 

Modifié par KainD, 27 mars 2012 - 10:37 .

[KainD]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

The more simplistic the want of the demon the more simplistic their being. If they enter the real world in a body it will become an abomination. If they enter the world summoned by blood magic they are themselves. The host as you would like to be will always be inferior.

Why inferior? Why not a partner? That's what I don't get. I mean, ok if they have no personality then how do you make bargains with them? It would be like telling fire not to burn you, which won't work. 

But if they have personality, you can make bargains with them, and both be happy. I get the fade secrets, they get the mortal realm. Being an abomination shouldn't be a problem. 

[thats1evildude]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

But that is exactly what I thought, that is it the OTHER way around. That they all have personalities, but focus on a power source for them to get into the physical world, hense why they can change their focus, their "nature". I believe that rage would be means to enter the mortal realm for a rage demon, and that if the rage demon could stay anyway, it could care less about rage. Desire demon could care less about desire, once she is permenetely in the mortal realm. I think all of those emotions are anchors that give the demons power to sustain themselves through mortals.

No, it's not like that. Demons don't simply prescribe to a particular emotion as a power source; they become that emotion, and then use it as a weapon against others.

KainD wrote...

That's what I don't get. I mean, ok if they have no personality then how do you make bargains with them? It would be like telling fire not to burn you, which won't work. 

But if they have personality, you can make bargains with them, and both be happy. I get the fade secrets, they get the mortal realm. Being an abomination shouldn't be a problem. 

They have different goals, and they prefer different ways of achieving those goals. They have a sense of self-preservation. But that's where the similariites between mortals and demons end. You have to get over the idea that you can make a fair bargain with a demon — demons will trip you up every time.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 mars 2012 - 11:01 .

[KainD]

thats1evildude wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

But that is exactly what I thought, that is it the OTHER way around. That they all have personalities, but focus on a power source for them to get into the physical world, hense why they can change their focus, their "nature". I believe that rage would be means to enter the mortal realm for a rage demon, and that if the rage demon could stay anyway, it could care less about rage. Desire demon could care less about desire, once she is permenetely in the mortal realm. I think all of those emotions are anchors that give the demons power to sustain themselves through mortals.

No, it's not like that. Demons don't simply prescribe to a particular emotion as a power source; they become that emotion, and then use it as a weapon against others.

But if you become one emotion then you don't have a personality. How can they even talk? 

I mean take say a Valor spirit from the harrowing ( first one that came to mind. ). Through the conversation that spirit felt - suprise, frustration, anger, fear, acceptance. 
A true spirit of Valor, if it represented emotion would only apear in dangerous situations and without words, if that makes sense. Or would look for dangerous situations just for that second when the situation is encountered, to fulfil it's purpose. 

[KainD]

thats1evildude wrote...

 You have to get over the idea that you can make a fair bargain with a demon — demons will trip you up every time.

Ok then. I just want to understand them. For now the "why" doesn't make sense.

[KainD]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

The why goes back to the envy. The spirits according to the chantry were the makers first childres but they did not satisfy him. That's why he created the world beyond the fade. The spirits were envyous about the beings beyond the fade and entered their dreams and through the mages to try to understand why the maker turned on them.

But then they DO have personality and are as deep as humans, just live in a different world. Also it means that they are all different. 

[thats1evildude]

KainD wrote...

But then they DO have personality and are as deep as humans, just live in a different world. Also it means that they are all different. 

But they aren't as deep as humans. They lack creativity; the most intelligent spirit can still only copy what it sees in the dreams of mortals, and they're shaped entirely by their emotions. Without mortals, demons would be nothing.

[KainD]

thats1evildude wrote...

KainD wrote...

But then they DO have personality and are as deep as humans, just live in a different world. Also it means that they are all different. 

But they aren't as deep as humans. They lack creativity; the most intelligent spirit can still only copy what it sees in the dreams of mortals, and they're shaped entirely by their emotions. Without mortals, demons would be nothing.

Well of course, that is what we all do - copy what we see. That is how a child grows up. Only Spirits don't improvize with ideas, as I understand it. 

But how does that get in the way of them being more humanlike when it comes to companionship? If the host is kind to the demon, why can't the demon show some kindness back, while they both learn from eachother, and share knowledge of the different worlds? 

[thats1evildude]

Because being possessed by a demon is not like sharing an apartment. It's more like a carjacking. The difference between a willing and forcible possession lies in the fate of the driver: in the case of the former, the driver gets tied up and thrown into the trunk of the car, and in the case of the latter, then the carjacker puts a few bullets in the driver's head before speeding off down the street.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 28 mars 2012 - 12:02 .

[KainD]

thats1evildude wrote...

Because being possessed by a demon is not like sharing an apartment. It's more like a carjacking. The difference between a willing and forcible possession lies in the fate of the driver: in the case of the former, the driver gets tied up and thrown into the trunk of the car, and in the case of the latter, then the carjacker puts a few bullets in the driver's head before speeding off down the street.

For beings with no imagination an purpose they sure have a lot then. 

[Gallimatia]

thats1evildude wrote...

They have different goals, and they prefer different ways of achieving those goals. They have a sense of self-preservation. But that's where the similariites between mortals and demons end. You have to get over the idea that you can make a fair bargain with a demon — demons will trip you up every time.

To be fair the PC has had the opportunity to trip the demons up many more times than the other way around. In the Harrowing you can cheat Sloth by not letting him eat you after losing the riddle game aswell as kill Valor and ignore the rules of his duel. You can refuse to set Kitty and Sophia free after agreeing to do that and receiving favors. You can kill the hunger demon in the Primeval Thaig after it has guided you to the exit in exchange for cooperation. You can also steal it's treasures. Similary you can go back on your deal with Torpor after he has helped you deal with the desire and pride demon. The demons are really the ones who ought to be complaining.

[Maria Caliban]

KainD wrote...

I mean, ok if they have no personality then how do you make bargains with them?

Demons have a personality and intellect. Some of them are no more than animals though.

KainD wrote...

Why not honor a mutually beneficial deal?

There are several instances of demons doing just that in the games. People just want Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil devils/demons ala DnD.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 mars 2012 - 03:43 .

[hitenchi]

What i am not sure about is whether all demons are actually evil, or at least the two most powerful, desire and pride, since neither all desires or pride is bad. I mean why do no desire demons have the desire to help people, and while they are called demons, it has been left slightly ambiguous whether all demons are evil, and it while it would probably be extremely dangerous there is techniqually no reason why you could not share your body with a desire or pride demon (the only two which i feel could be interested in such a deal) you would just have to interest them enough not to dominate you.