349 réponses à ce sujet

[Jonwes]

I thought it would be good to have a thread to debunk some of the "plot holes" that people keep regurgitating because they saw the Angry Joe video or one of the articles that have ripped it off. The fact of the matter is that while there are surely things to be annoyed/disappointed with as far as the ending goes, there are some things people keep bringing up that really don't seem like an issue. There are two that are driving me nuts reading about again and again:

1. Why did the Illusive Man show up? How did he get to the Citadel?
People keep acting surprised that he showed up and wonder how he got there...

BUT

We are told the Illusive Man has gone to the Citadel. We are told this in the game. I wasn't surprised to see him there in the end because as we are raiding Cronos station we are specifically told that the Illusive Man is gone and that he's gone to the Citadel. I can't remember if Kai Leng or EDI said it in my play through, but it was specifically mentioned. He was there to use the Crucible for his own end game plans.

2. The Catalyst's Logic Makes No Sense

Not sure why people are having trouble understand the cycle thing. People keep saying "why do they use synthetics to kill organics to prevent synthetics from killing organics?" The answer - that's not what the Catalyst is saying at all.

The Reapers are "pruning" the populace and getting rid of only the most advanced civilizations and the synthetics (or taking over the synthetics.) This gets rid of the synthetics to prevent them from destroying ALL life and gets rid of the beings capable of producing more synthetics... for a time. They leave the young races. The idea is that in this way non-synthetics are never totally wiped out. Seems clear enough.

Also, using the possible Geth/Quarian peace as an example to say the Catalyst is wrong is silly. The Geth DID rebel against their creators at one point. The fact that Shepard (might have) brokered a peace doesn't change that, nor does it prevent other organics from making other synthetics in the future  that will rebel and destroy all organic life as the Catalyst fears. The Catalyst has seen this happen over and over. His reference point is not as limited as our experience.

Now, whether Shepard should just believe what the Catalyst says is another matter, but what he actually says is not illogical.

[Fogg]

Now try and debunk the Normandy running off with teleporting squadmates

[sergio71785]

Two down, a hundred more to go.

[Arokel]

I agree with you ont these two (I still dont like the endings) but there are still other inconcistencies.

The teleporting squadmates for one.

Modifié par Arokel, 27 mars 2012 - 05:33 .

[MJF JD]

thank you for debunking 2 of the smaller plot holes

[Asari23]

What about the other Billion?

[Vaktathi]

Jonwes wrote...

2. The Catalyst's Logic Makes No Sense

Not sure why people are having trouble understand the cycle thing. People keep saying "why do they use synthetics to kill organics to prevent synthetics from killing organics?" The answer - that's not what the Catalyst is saying at all.

The Reapers are "pruning" the populace and getting rid of only the most advanced civilizations and the synthetics (or taking over the synthetics.) This gets rid of the synthetics to prevent them from destroying ALL life and gets rid of the beings capable of producing more synthetics... for a time. They leave the young races. The idea is that in this way non-synthetics are never totally wiped out. Seems clear enough.

Why don't they just wipe out the synthetics that threaten this instead...?

Also, using the possible Geth/Quarian peace as an example to say the Catalyst is wrong is silly. The Geth DID rebel against their creators at one point.

In self defense, the Creators attacked them *first*.

[Deadly Sniper Goat]

The Geth did not rebel- The Quarians shot first, despite numerous attempts by the Geth and even other Quarians to broker peace. Legion, the servers... Even the choice on Rannoch, all shows clearly the geth would happily stand down if the quarians would just stop shooting at them for five minutes.

[Admiral H. Cain]

The Illusive Mans appearance wasn't a plot hole.

As for your second one, all I see are rationalizations for genocide. We can argue that one in circles all day.

So are you going to address any of the actual plot holes?

[The Angry One]

Jonwes wrote...

Also, using the possible Geth/Quarian peace as an example to say the Catalyst is wrong is silly. The Geth DID rebel against their creators at one point.

No they did not. The creators attacked. They did not want to rebel.
Hell at one point in the Consensus you see the memory of a Geth unit who would rather turn itself in to the Quarian authorities rather than put the Quarian who was hiding it at risk.

The fact that Shepard (might have) brokered a peace doesn't change that, nor does it prevent other organics from making other synthetics in the future  that will rebel and destroy all organic life as the Catalyst fears. The Catalyst has seen this happen over and over. His reference point is not as limited as our experience.

The Geth had total control of Rannoch for 300 years.
There are birds in the sky.
There are trees on the ground.

Organic life = not destroyed. The Catalyst's reference is nebulous and we have only his word to take, when IT is the one causing chaos and destroying organics.

Now, whether Shepard should just believe what the Catalyst says is another matter, but what he actually says is not illogical.

It's completely illogical, and also a lie.

[nitefyre410]

Deadly Sniper Goat wrote...

The Geth did not rebel- The Quarians shot first, despite numerous attempts by the Geth and even other Quarians to broker peace. Legion, the servers... Even the choice on Rannoch, all shows clearly the geth would happily stand down if the quarians would just stop shooting at them for five minutes.

 

Oh don't let the facts get in the way of a good arguement or  a broken AI trying to play at being God. <_<

[Plakmasta]

Those are not the plot holes, nice try though.

[MattFini]

The Catalyst's logic isn't so much the problem - it's his inclusion in the story at all.

It's a pretentious, convenient and anticlimactic way to end a game series that was, on its surface, a rollicking space opera.

[WizenSlinky0]

Vaktathi wrote...
 Why don't they just wipe out the synthetics that threaten this instead...?

It's inefficient and not possible. The reapers are still based on organic minds. Which means organics are more predictable.

On top of this, what if they did swoop in and destroy a synthetic race everytime one started? Do you think nobody would ever notice the hyper advanced warships? Or prepare for them?

Eventually WE'D attack the reapers. Because they are a threat. Even if they outright told us they mean no harm to organics WE would attack THEM. This would either destroy the reapers, if we had advanced far enough, and endanger the long term survival of organcs...or cause them to have to reap us anyway in order to continue.

The reapers CANNOT swoop in and leave people alive who know what they are and what they can do. It would endanger their entire cycle.

[JPN17]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

The Illusive Mans appearance wasn't a plot hole.

As for your second one, all I see are rationalizations for genocide. We can argue that one in circles all day.

So are you going to address any of the actual plot holes?

This was going to be my question.

[The Angry One]

Hell, even in the outcome where the Quarians are destroyed (because they refuse to stand down), what's one of the first things the Geth Prime says? "We regret the deaths of the Creators."

[Sesshaku]

 The Quarians shot first

Modifié par Sesshaku, 27 mars 2012 - 05:40 .

[SlyTF1]

Fine.
Now explain how all the mass relays exploded and didn't destroy the galaxy. Or why Joker went through the relay for no reason. Or how we supposedly saved the galaxy by stranding millions in a desolate system without any kind of transportation back to their homes. Explain why you can't reason with the catalyst if you merge the geth and quarians. Explain that to me, explain it. NAO.

[Cody211282]

:blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink:


No..........just no

[mad825]

Jonwes wrote...

The fact that Shepard (might have) brokered a peace doesn't change that, nor does it prevent other organics from making other synthetics in the future  that will rebel and destroy all organic life as the Catalyst fears. The Catalyst has seen this happen over and over. His reference point is not as limited as our experience.

Still don't see the reasoning behind the Catalyst, it's too self-righteous. How can you justify the continuing death of organics when the outcome is the same when the synthetics rebel?

To try and prevent the inevitable, you need to let the inevitable to happen. It's circular logic, it's stupid and a major cop-out.

Modifié par mad825, 27 mars 2012 - 05:44 .

[JPN17]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...
 Why don't they just wipe out the synthetics that threaten this instead...?

It's inefficient and not possible. The reapers are still based on organic minds. Which means organics are more predictable.

On top of this, what if they did swoop in and destroy a synthetic race everytime one started? Do you think nobody would ever notice the hyper advanced warships? Or prepare for them?

Eventually WE'D attack the reapers. Because they are a threat. Even if they outright told us they mean no harm to organics WE would attack THEM. This would either destroy the reapers, if we had advanced far enough, and endanger the long term survival of organcs...or cause them to have to reap us anyway in order to continue.

The reapers CANNOT swoop in and leave people alive who know what they are and what they can do. It would endanger their entire cycle.

Inefficient and not possible? HUH? The reapers upgraded the geth with reaper code. They could have just as easily given them a virus which destroyed them. Seems very possible and efficient to me.

[DocDoomII]

Indulge me.

If the godbrat has always been inside the citadel, why did Sovereign need to activate it from the central tower?
Not to mention Harbringer creating another Reaper inside galaxy space just so that they could try to activate the citadel again.

Modifié par DocDoomII, 27 mars 2012 - 05:41 .

[WizenSlinky0]

The Angry One wrote...
It's completely illogical, and also a lie.

No, it isn't. You're missing the point. The point isn't that "all synthetics will immediatly attempt to destroy all organic life". It is that "eventually, at some point in time, a synthetic race...no matter how peaceful or tame before hand...will eventually doom all organic life".

The Geth/Quarian peace and the general tameness of the Geth are but a blip in time. 10,000 years down the road they could turn out to be the reason all organic life disappears from the galaxy. Or not. The peace you broker is actually quite irrelevent to the catalysts logic because the reapers are considering a longer stretch of time than we are.

We're looking at the immediate scenario. We're biased. You don't have to agree that a tech singularity is inevitable but it is not illogical. It is one of many logical conclusions. Anything beyond that is discussing probabilities.

[SolidisusSnake1]

You didnt debunk anything and the Geth did not rebel, the Quarians attacked them and they responded. If you paid attention during Legions mission this was made abundantly clear, the Geth even had the opportunity when the Geth tried to flee to wipe them ALL OUT, they chose not to. In other words the Geth showed more compassion and willingness for peace than the Quarians who are Organic.

[Jackal7713]

MJF JD wrote...

thank you for debunking 2 of the smaller plot holes

LMAO!!!