Number one was sufficiently explained for me. Plus, Illusive Man is indoctrinated, so it makes sense that he's alive and on the citadel.
The second on though... I'm not usually the one to say "well why didn't he do this instead" so my problems with the catalyst logic are the thematic incoherence. Not only is it the Quarians that started the war with the Geth (I get the feeling that particular retake on things was shown to make the Geth more sympathetic and muddy the waters... but no thought was given to how it would affect the ending logic), you also have the EDI/Joker storyline.
But since I've already gone to the darkside and started picking apart every little thing about the ending. I might as well just go with a "why not do this instead" complaint...
Why didn't the Reapers just harvest synthetics instead of organics?
"Plot Holes" Debunked
Débuté par
Jonwes
, mars 27 2012 05:31
Retour en haut
#302
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 08:31
Shahadem
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You haven't debunked much and completely failed on the god child logic.
He is presenting a logical fallacy which is essentially saying that because something could happen then it is definitely going to happen. But by this same logic you could say that since synthetics might get along just swell with organics then synthetics are always going to get along with organics.
Yet these two things obviously can't occur simultaneously. You'd think that a being who has been alive for millions of years would be a little smarter.
Plus there isn't much difference between killing someone now verse killing them later because at the end of the day they are still going to be killed,
In fact, having the Reapers only come in once every 50,000 years instead of monitoring the situation could allow synthetics to easily take over the entire galaxy in between a cycle if one of the species finds a tech cache really early on.
The solution itself is a false dichotomy where the only choices he considers are either letting synthetics kill off organic species or sending in Reapers to cherry pick off organic species so they don't build synthetics to kill themselves off.
Why not just have Reapers flying around acting as a galactic police force that make sure no synthetics ever develop enough to kill off organics? I already discussed the problem with the logic that lead to this false dichotomy so not going to discuss it again.
He is presenting a logical fallacy which is essentially saying that because something could happen then it is definitely going to happen. But by this same logic you could say that since synthetics might get along just swell with organics then synthetics are always going to get along with organics.
Yet these two things obviously can't occur simultaneously. You'd think that a being who has been alive for millions of years would be a little smarter.
Plus there isn't much difference between killing someone now verse killing them later because at the end of the day they are still going to be killed,
In fact, having the Reapers only come in once every 50,000 years instead of monitoring the situation could allow synthetics to easily take over the entire galaxy in between a cycle if one of the species finds a tech cache really early on.
The solution itself is a false dichotomy where the only choices he considers are either letting synthetics kill off organic species or sending in Reapers to cherry pick off organic species so they don't build synthetics to kill themselves off.
Why not just have Reapers flying around acting as a galactic police force that make sure no synthetics ever develop enough to kill off organics? I already discussed the problem with the logic that lead to this false dichotomy so not going to discuss it again.
#303
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 08:34
WizenSlinky0
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Controller_B wrote...
Why didn't the Reapers just harvest synthetics instead of organics?
Depends on what you mean. If you mean create reapers from synthetics, it's because it isn't possible under the current reaper framework. Reaper minds are created by pulling together millions of organic minds. In theory, you could make a synthetic reaper would uploaded processes (or enslaved processes, technically). But it would change the goal of the reapers.
If their point is to stop synthetic development then they aren't about to make synthetic reapers.
If you mean why they don't just come in and kill synthetics...it's because they essentially do both. You could actually reasonably frame the current story as "harvesting synthetics" because harvesting space-faring organics would be an essential part of that plan in order to prevent the eventuality of either organcs becoming fearful of the giant cuttlefish stealing all their robots...and try to fight them. Or organics eventually creating synthetics that surpass that of the reapers because their technological level has been left unchecked.
#304
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 08:34
JulienJaden
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sergio71785 wrote...
Two down, a hundred more to go.
Nope, it's not even two down. Sorry, OP, but no debunking for you.
1) Yes, TIM is on the Citadel. But TIM has nowhere to come from, just like there's no place Anderson could have come from. It's a straight corridor with nowhere to hide and no other doors (at least none that connect to your walkway, just doors that open into midair, with nothing but that chasm below). Anderson came after you but was in the room first. You started off in a room full of dead bodies with no other doors but the one you go through, you are second to enter the control and TIM comes in behind you.
It would be logical, if: Anderson came in behind you and the two of you went into the control room together, where TIM is waiting for you. But it's the other way around and that makes no sense at all. None at all.
2) The strategy of coming back every 50.000 years doesn't suit such a goal. If the Reapers wanted to preserve all life, they could simply stay all the time, eliminate synthetics (not organics) as they are invented and possibly destroy the race that invents them. Over time, if there is some sort of community, they will understand; especially when the Reapers TELL THEM why they do things like that.
If the Reapers only show up every 50.000 years, and it is proven (by the Protheans on Ilos) that they can overlook remnants of advanced species, then a synthetic race could survive, thrive and spend the next 50.000 years killing all organic life.
And all that left aside: Their 'strategy' suits a more basic idea (kinda what Drew Karpyshyn had in mind), that of procreation. They return, create new Reapers, take what technology was developed that might fit into their arsenal or makes them more efficient, then they leave and hybernate to preserve energy and to make sure they are safe from any attacks. It's definitely easier than maintaining a galaxywide Empire, and with people knowing as little as possible about them, there is little resistance, while there could be many inventions that would pose a threat if they were there all the time.
Modifié par JulienJaden, 27 mars 2012 - 08:35 .
#305
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 08:35
Comguard2
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Problem with the Star Child's logic is that it is based on mere assumptions.
Synthetics kill all organics > just an assumption unless he witnessed the destruction of all organic life through synthetics. But the existence of other species says something different.
So the "synthetics destroy organics" is not something that will happen for sure, but the Catalyst thinks will happen.
Synthetics kill all organics > just an assumption unless he witnessed the destruction of all organic life through synthetics. But the existence of other species says something different.
So the "synthetics destroy organics" is not something that will happen for sure, but the Catalyst thinks will happen.
#306
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 08:39
J1NG
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My issue with the Star Child, it's logic and the ending bits:
1. My (Immutable) Solution to an Immutable Problem.
The created will always destroy the creator.
My Solution is the Reapers.
Lets look at that.
"The created will always destroy the creator." That's a statement. A fact (supposedly). So there's no arguing involved. From the Star Child's perspective. In short 1 + 1 = 2. (Let's ignore the fact that our own examples of Geth and Edi contradict this for a moment)
So in response to that fact, the solution is provided in the form of the Reapers.
Problem: 1 + 1 = 2, which is > 0, which is the problem.
Solution: - 2 = 0
Excellent. So everything is in order there.
But it's not is it? What are the issues with that?
2. Immutable Problem
1 + 1 = 2, which is greater than 0 = Problem is True (In crude form)
- 2 = 0 = Solution is True
But wait
1 + 1 = 2, which is greater than 0 = Problem is True
+ 1 - 3 = 0 = Solution is ALSO True
As is
1 + 1 = 2 = Problem is True
+ 10 - 13 = 0 = Solution is ALSO True
So... All those other solutions are also true, valid and possible.
So why is the Reapers reaping the advanced civilizations every 50000 years the ONLY solution?
Therefore, to me, Star Child's Logic is flawed. As it can only see one problem and can only see one solution. Or perhaps to it, there is only one problem and can only be one solution for it.
In either case, acceptable (in a way), it is working with the facts it knows after all.
But wait...
3. It's not the only logical problem!/solution?
There's also the Catalyst Device?
If the Problem is 100% and Solution is 100%, then there is no need for a sub solution or backup plan is there?
The Catalyst is either a weapon designed to destroy the Reapers or Control them, created by some race long ago and modified since, fine.
But the Star Child will have ZERO reason to modify the Catalyst or help develop the Catalyst at all over the millennia if the Solution was perfect.
But clearly at the end, the Star Child implies that the Catalyst has several options to UNDO the Reaper Solution or modify it. So... the problem, or indeed the solution is not perfect. So again, why IS using the Reapers to reap the galaxy accepted as the ONLY solution by the Star Child?
Really??? I mean, seriously. REALLY??????
You, the Star Child, who has given blanket and immutable statements that is supposedly fact, is now telling me that you had a backup plan in case you were wrong? Geee, that's really confidence inspiring in believing your logic there. I can't possibly see what could be wrong there(!) *Sarcasm in case it's missed*
Oh but wait, True Believers will say:
"But the Star Child should have a backup plan in case things go wrong."
Yes, the key point there being, "IF" and "things go WRONG".
If either solution or problem can change (go wrong, or in ways that you can NOT predict) then clearly the problem or solution is not perfect. So why in the name of logic and sanity is the Star Child going with only the ONE solution and telling me that it is the ONLY solution?
Leave the Organics in peace damnit!
Or indeed, other True Believers may say:
"But the Catalyst is not the backup solution. There isn't one."
So the Catalyst is then indeed a weapon?
So why the heck doesn't it do anything? Why does the Star Child then need to come down and have a chat with us, before telling us the ways Shepard can change the Problem/Solution if it's working against the perfect original Problem/Solution of the Reapers in the first place?
If I write 1 + 1 = 2, you can't come in and pencil in a + 1, so it now reads 1 + 1 + 1 = 2 and I'll accept that. So I will erase (destroy) that extra + 1 (the Catalyst) and keep the solution that works. Not try and adapt to it.
To me, that screams of Logic Fail.
Because if I DO think "Hey, wait a minute, maybe we're onto something here". Then either my problem or my solution was flawed.
ie. Flawed Logic.
1. My (Immutable) Solution to an Immutable Problem.
The created will always destroy the creator.
My Solution is the Reapers.
Lets look at that.
"The created will always destroy the creator." That's a statement. A fact (supposedly). So there's no arguing involved. From the Star Child's perspective. In short 1 + 1 = 2. (Let's ignore the fact that our own examples of Geth and Edi contradict this for a moment)
So in response to that fact, the solution is provided in the form of the Reapers.
Problem: 1 + 1 = 2, which is > 0, which is the problem.
Solution: - 2 = 0
Excellent. So everything is in order there.
But it's not is it? What are the issues with that?
2. Immutable Problem
1 + 1 = 2, which is greater than 0 = Problem is True (In crude form)
- 2 = 0 = Solution is True
But wait
1 + 1 = 2, which is greater than 0 = Problem is True
+ 1 - 3 = 0 = Solution is ALSO True
As is
1 + 1 = 2 = Problem is True
+ 10 - 13 = 0 = Solution is ALSO True
So... All those other solutions are also true, valid and possible.
So why is the Reapers reaping the advanced civilizations every 50000 years the ONLY solution?
Therefore, to me, Star Child's Logic is flawed. As it can only see one problem and can only see one solution. Or perhaps to it, there is only one problem and can only be one solution for it.
In either case, acceptable (in a way), it is working with the facts it knows after all.
But wait...
3. It's not the only logical problem!/solution?
There's also the Catalyst Device?
If the Problem is 100% and Solution is 100%, then there is no need for a sub solution or backup plan is there?
The Catalyst is either a weapon designed to destroy the Reapers or Control them, created by some race long ago and modified since, fine.
But the Star Child will have ZERO reason to modify the Catalyst or help develop the Catalyst at all over the millennia if the Solution was perfect.
But clearly at the end, the Star Child implies that the Catalyst has several options to UNDO the Reaper Solution or modify it. So... the problem, or indeed the solution is not perfect. So again, why IS using the Reapers to reap the galaxy accepted as the ONLY solution by the Star Child?
Really??? I mean, seriously. REALLY??????
You, the Star Child, who has given blanket and immutable statements that is supposedly fact, is now telling me that you had a backup plan in case you were wrong? Geee, that's really confidence inspiring in believing your logic there. I can't possibly see what could be wrong there(!) *Sarcasm in case it's missed*
Oh but wait, True Believers will say:
"But the Star Child should have a backup plan in case things go wrong."
Yes, the key point there being, "IF" and "things go WRONG".
If either solution or problem can change (go wrong, or in ways that you can NOT predict) then clearly the problem or solution is not perfect. So why in the name of logic and sanity is the Star Child going with only the ONE solution and telling me that it is the ONLY solution?
Leave the Organics in peace damnit!
Or indeed, other True Believers may say:
"But the Catalyst is not the backup solution. There isn't one."
So the Catalyst is then indeed a weapon?
So why the heck doesn't it do anything? Why does the Star Child then need to come down and have a chat with us, before telling us the ways Shepard can change the Problem/Solution if it's working against the perfect original Problem/Solution of the Reapers in the first place?
If I write 1 + 1 = 2, you can't come in and pencil in a + 1, so it now reads 1 + 1 + 1 = 2 and I'll accept that. So I will erase (destroy) that extra + 1 (the Catalyst) and keep the solution that works. Not try and adapt to it.
To me, that screams of Logic Fail.
Because if I DO think "Hey, wait a minute, maybe we're onto something here". Then either my problem or my solution was flawed.
ie. Flawed Logic.
Modifié par J1NG, 27 mars 2012 - 08:40 .
#307
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 08:42
WizenSlinky0
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JulienJaden wrote...
2) The strategy of coming back every 50.000 years doesn't suit such a goal. If the Reapers wanted to preserve all life, they could simply stay all the time, eliminate synthetics (not organics) as they are invented and possibly destroy the race that invents them. Over time, if there is some sort of community, they will understand; especially when the Reapers TELL THEM why they do things like that.
If the Reapers only show up every 50.000 years, and it is proven (by the Protheans on Ilos) that they can overlook remnants of advanced species, then a synthetic race could survive, thrive and spend the next 50.000 years killing all organic life.
I can't say I agree. We would fear the giant cuttlefish and prepare to destroy them in the future when we thought we were able. We're not about to let a policeforce of cuttlefish judge if we are worthy to survive or not, or if we're allowed to build robots or not. What would ever possess you to believe we'd accept that? We inherently believe we know better. We're smarter than that. There's no way it'd happen to us.
The overlooking of organic remnants is an oversight. But one of the reasons they have a vanguard like Sovereign. The 50,000 years is a general statement. They will come early or late depending on what the vanguard witnesses.
#308
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 08:44
Psychlonus
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Another way to prevent synthetic take over at all costs, is to prevent interstellar travel.
#309
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 08:46
Corrik Ronis
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Have we ever sussed out a reason(other than 'because') that Shepard couldn't have used The Conduit to access the Citadel again? Why did we need to waste the ships and lives in that massive ground assault?
#310
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 08:46
Psychlonus
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WizenSlinky0 wrote...
JulienJaden wrote...
2) The strategy of coming back every 50.000 years doesn't suit such a goal. If the Reapers wanted to preserve all life, they could simply stay all the time, eliminate synthetics (not organics) as they are invented and possibly destroy the race that invents them. Over time, if there is some sort of community, they will understand; especially when the Reapers TELL THEM why they do things like that.
If the Reapers only show up every 50.000 years, and it is proven (by the Protheans on Ilos) that they can overlook remnants of advanced species, then a synthetic race could survive, thrive and spend the next 50.000 years killing all organic life.
I can't say I agree. We would fear the giant cuttlefish and prepare to destroy them in the future when we thought we were able. We're not about to let a policeforce of cuttlefish judge if we are worthy to survive or not, or if we're allowed to build robots or not. What would ever possess you to believe we'd accept that? We inherently believe we know better. We're smarter than that. There's no way it'd happen to us.
The overlooking of organic remnants is an oversight. But one of the reasons they have a vanguard like Sovereign. The 50,000 years is a general statement. They will come early or late depending on what the vanguard witnesses.
The Council outlawed AI, so can the reapers...and with a much more valid explanation.
#311
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 08:47
Saul Iscariot
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Let me try and put in order:
Hammer fails, Joker abandons the battle to look for survivors, not sure if any survived.
Shepard awakens and makes his way into the beam.
Joker arrives, the beam is now closed, there is no sign of Shepard but the other crew mates are recovered. Normandy is damaged in the rescue effort.
Cut back to Shepard and Anderson as we saw them in the game.
Following the conversation with the Space Child Shepard advises Hackett to withdraw the fleet from the battle.
Only the Normandy manages to escape, being as it is the most advanced ship in the fleet.
Joker manages to make an emergency landing, and lives or dies depending on whether you picked the synthesis option from the radiation.
It isn't perfect, but I think the introduction of these cut sceneds make more sdnse than what we have.
Hammer fails, Joker abandons the battle to look for survivors, not sure if any survived.
Shepard awakens and makes his way into the beam.
Joker arrives, the beam is now closed, there is no sign of Shepard but the other crew mates are recovered. Normandy is damaged in the rescue effort.
Cut back to Shepard and Anderson as we saw them in the game.
Following the conversation with the Space Child Shepard advises Hackett to withdraw the fleet from the battle.
Only the Normandy manages to escape, being as it is the most advanced ship in the fleet.
Joker manages to make an emergency landing, and lives or dies depending on whether you picked the synthesis option from the radiation.
It isn't perfect, but I think the introduction of these cut sceneds make more sdnse than what we have.
#312
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 08:48
WizenSlinky0
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Corrik Ronis wrote...
Have we ever sussed out a reason(other than 'because') that Shepard couldn't have used The Conduit to access the Citadel again? Why did we need to waste the ships and lives in that massive ground assault?
Hell if I know.
#313
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 08:51
WizenSlinky0
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Psychlonus wrote...
WizenSlinky0 wrote...
JulienJaden wrote...
2) The strategy of coming back every 50.000 years doesn't suit such a goal. If the Reapers wanted to preserve all life, they could simply stay all the time, eliminate synthetics (not organics) as they are invented and possibly destroy the race that invents them. Over time, if there is some sort of community, they will understand; especially when the Reapers TELL THEM why they do things like that.
If the Reapers only show up every 50.000 years, and it is proven (by the Protheans on Ilos) that they can overlook remnants of advanced species, then a synthetic race could survive, thrive and spend the next 50.000 years killing all organic life.
I can't say I agree. We would fear the giant cuttlefish and prepare to destroy them in the future when we thought we were able. We're not about to let a policeforce of cuttlefish judge if we are worthy to survive or not, or if we're allowed to build robots or not. What would ever possess you to believe we'd accept that? We inherently believe we know better. We're smarter than that. There's no way it'd happen to us.
The overlooking of organic remnants is an oversight. But one of the reasons they have a vanguard like Sovereign. The 50,000 years is a general statement. They will come early or late depending on what the vanguard witnesses.
The Council outlawed AI, so can the reapers...and with a much more valid explanation.
Yeah, they did outlaw AI. And then humans had secret AI research facilities. And probably every other race had them too. All looking for an edge over eachother.
Like I said, we inherently believe we know better. We're too smart to make a mistake that could doom all of us.
The reapers could be the most benevolent force in the galaxy and we'd still seek to destroy them or break out of their control. Nobody is going to be supportive of a race of reapers who tell us what not to do and could destroy us at any time if they "felt like it". We'd most likely put up with it until we could stop them. Then we'd stop them. And the reapers would have failed their mission.
It's the same reason nations get into arm races even when at peace. We're desperate to be "on top" so that we don't have to be vulnerable.
#314
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 08:52
Jonwes
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LOL - well, it's apparent discussion isn't a big thing with a lot of people here. Most people don't bother to read most of the thread. They just respond to the OP even though a number of people have made the same point over and over. Instead, they just want to hit the same talking points, even if the conversation has progressed. Clearly it's more a case of "If I say the same thing over and over and loud enough while totally ignoring any other viewpoint I will be right."
So, the end for me. You may all resume stewing in your juices. I really didn't mean to just stir up things. I was just applying some common sense to some of the silliness, while freely acknowledging there are things that don't make sense. But trying to sift through all the nonsense to actually find people engaging my ideas and thoughts is too hard to do... and frankly, boring. But thanks to everyone who actually engaged in a conversation on this. You brought up a lot of good things for me to think about.
And I didn't even get to why it's very clear Joker wasn't running away...
So, the end for me. You may all resume stewing in your juices. I really didn't mean to just stir up things. I was just applying some common sense to some of the silliness, while freely acknowledging there are things that don't make sense. But trying to sift through all the nonsense to actually find people engaging my ideas and thoughts is too hard to do... and frankly, boring. But thanks to everyone who actually engaged in a conversation on this. You brought up a lot of good things for me to think about.
And I didn't even get to why it's very clear Joker wasn't running away...
Modifié par Jonwes, 27 mars 2012 - 08:53 .
#315
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 08:54
Kalas82
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sergio71785 wrote...
Two down, a hundred more to go.
I don`t see 2 down....so TIM got to the Citadel while the whole battle on earth was going on....dunno wasn`t the biggest plothole for me..but it`s still there.
The TEs-Post doesn`t make the "cycle" thing anymore logic..it doesn`t matter of the cycle contains killing "all" organic life or just "most"..it`s still stupid no matter how you turn it.
Space-God createt machines to kill organic life, which might someday create machines, which might someday kill organic life.
It doesn`t matter if there`s "all" in it..it just makes sense if you are stoned..honestly that`s the kind of logic we are told during our kindergarden or schooltime to stay away from.
a) Space-God (who can alter every living and artifical created thing in the whole universe) needs this stupid ass plan to prevent organic life from beeing whiped out? Realy? Wtf. kind of sense does that make?
EDI and Joker , Geth and Quarians are all exampels of the theory beeing wrong....during the whole ME-Series this topic played a role...and the positive way of thinking bout it....going the renegade-path in the Geth-Quarian-conflict was ment to be ugly...there were so many times you were shown how "human" the Geth are and you were ment to feel pity for them and disgust for the conflict between both...that was so damn obvious.And then, taking all the time these "cycles" were going on, this has never happened before? Seriously?
By playing Mass Effect 1 to 3 you can literaly make this cycle-theory more stupid.
c) If the Reapers were realy ment to keep this cycle, why for gods sake did they not kill Shep? They had him so many times..and didn`t strike once? Why did they nothing to prevent crucible and citadel uniting or preventing Shep and co. from getting there? like..um..i dunno...move the citadel 2inches out of the transportbeam..or like turning the freaking transport beam of?
How the f***k can there be the A,B,C-device ontop of the citadel when the citadel is godcreated reapertech and the crucible was created by it`s very victims? Space-God literaly says Shepard is the first one up there....so Space-God createt this A,B,C-device himself? Logic? Joints?
Why the f***K didn`t this allmighty god-kid just snip his fingers and make Shep go *poof*?
d) Is there a deeper math behind the whole cycle-theory? Like who kills more organic life , the cleansing through the reapers or the organic-synthetic-life-conflict that might someday happen..perhaps...? Perhaps Space-God just forgot his calculator? Perhaps he just forgot that such conflicts ..if they might happen ...can also stop..then continue and then stop again? His reaper-cleaning-crew seems to be extremly more effective in killing organic life.
e) So let say we all forget our deeper cognitive brain funtions and pretend we are 4 year old kids or perhaps braindead and this theory is valid... it needs Shepard to break this cycle which went on for an eternity?
Seriously? I can`t get drunk enough to get behind this logic.
Gods citadel-toy and the device his victims created unite and just need a little Shepard-fuse to break the cycle that went on for eternity...no...just..no...there are no words the describe the stupid logic this story-telling presents.
Stoned i tell ya....someone gotta tell Space-God to stay away from wheed for some time..he just can`t handel it.
#316
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 08:56
Worufu
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If Catalyst's way of thinking is logical, then a question.
If they're exterminating advanced organic life to stop them from creating synthetics that could kill all organic life, basic and advanced...
...then why won't the Reapers just kill all AI synthetic life when it starts endangering the organic life?
Though it might be easier doing just 'oh well, fekk it, let's kill the squishy things when the clock goes ding' than 'synth-wait for it...-thetic AI, ka-BLAM!'.
If they're exterminating advanced organic life to stop them from creating synthetics that could kill all organic life, basic and advanced...
...then why won't the Reapers just kill all AI synthetic life when it starts endangering the organic life?
Though it might be easier doing just 'oh well, fekk it, let's kill the squishy things when the clock goes ding' than 'synth-wait for it...-thetic AI, ka-BLAM!'.
#317
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 09:00
Psychlonus
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WizenSlinky0 wrote...
Psychlonus wrote...
WizenSlinky0 wrote...
JulienJaden wrote...
2) The strategy of coming back every 50.000 years doesn't suit such a goal. If the Reapers wanted to preserve all life, they could simply stay all the time, eliminate synthetics (not organics) as they are invented and possibly destroy the race that invents them. Over time, if there is some sort of community, they will understand; especially when the Reapers TELL THEM why they do things like that.
If the Reapers only show up every 50.000 years, and it is proven (by the Protheans on Ilos) that they can overlook remnants of advanced species, then a synthetic race could survive, thrive and spend the next 50.000 years killing all organic life.
I can't say I agree. We would fear the giant cuttlefish and prepare to destroy them in the future when we thought we were able. We're not about to let a policeforce of cuttlefish judge if we are worthy to survive or not, or if we're allowed to build robots or not. What would ever possess you to believe we'd accept that? We inherently believe we know better. We're smarter than that. There's no way it'd happen to us.
The overlooking of organic remnants is an oversight. But one of the reasons they have a vanguard like Sovereign. The 50,000 years is a general statement. They will come early or late depending on what the vanguard witnesses.
The Council outlawed AI, so can the reapers...and with a much more valid explanation.
Yeah, they did outlaw AI. And then humans had secret AI research facilities. And probably every other race had them too. All looking for an edge over eachother.
Like I said, we inherently believe we know better. We're too smart to make a mistake that could doom all of us.
The reapers could be the most benevolent force in the galaxy and we'd still seek to destroy them or break out of their control. Nobody is going to be supportive of a race of reapers who tell us what not to do and could destroy us at any time if they "felt like it". We'd most likely put up with it until we could stop them. Then we'd stop them. And the reapers would have failed their mission.
It's the same reason nations get into arm races even when at peace. We're desperate to be "on top" so that we don't have to be vulnerable.
My point was that an organization that outlaws AI is not automatically rebelled against militarily; especially if they have a superior perspective on the technological singularity. The Council did it, so can the Reapers. But unlike the council, the Reapers have control of the relays.
#318
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 09:03
Anacronian Stryx
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JulienJaden wrote...
And all that left aside: Their 'strategy' suits a more basic idea (kinda what Drew Karpyshyn had in mind), that of procreation. They return, create new Reapers, take what technology was developed that might fit into their arsenal or makes them more efficient, then they leave and hybernate to preserve energy and to make sure they are safe from any attacks. It's definitely easier than maintaining a galaxywide Empire, and with people knowing as little as possible about them, there is little resistance, while there could be many inventions that would pose a threat if they were there all the time.
Indeed up until ME 3 the reapers did seem to have a large scale parasitic relationship with the galaxy and it's really sad that ME 3 didn't go the route of exploring this instead of just making the reapers reasons ..well actually nonexistent since they are reduced to mere tools which is sad.
#319
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 09:04
WizenSlinky0
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Psychlonus wrote...
My point was that an organization that outlaws AI is not automatically rebelled against militarily; especially if they have a superior perspective on the technological singularity. The Council did it, so can the Reapers. But unlike the council, the Reapers have control of the relays.
Right, but it is not a sustainable solution for any great period of time. The reapers main weapon is that organics are limited to 50,000 years worth of technological devlopment. Without the cycle they could feasibly become stronger than the reapers in just 100,000 years. Create synthetics stronger than the reapers in just 100,000 years.
If you don't limit our technology we will surpass any arbitrary limit on what we can and can't do. The protheans built a relay in one cycle. We'd break from those bonds as well.
#320
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 09:05
Keladis
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Yeah there is no way Joker and your crew would of flee leaving earth! They signed up to support Shepard and his mission to the end.
So please try and explain that plot hole to me
So please try and explain that plot hole to me
Modifié par Keladis, 27 mars 2012 - 09:06 .
#321
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 09:07
weltraumhamster89
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The Angry One wrote...
Jonwes wrote...
Also, using the possible Geth/Quarian peace as an example to say the Catalyst is wrong is silly. The Geth DID rebel against their creators at one point.
No they did not. The creators attacked. They did not want to rebel.
Hell at one point in the Consensus you see the memory of a Geth unit who would rather turn itself in to the Quarian authorities rather than put the Quarian who was hiding it at risk.
The fact that Shepard (might have) brokered a peace doesn't change that, nor does it prevent other organics from making other synthetics in the future that will rebel and destroy all organic life as the Catalyst fears. The Catalyst has seen this happen over and over. His reference point is not as limited as our experience.
The Geth had total control of Rannoch for 300 years.
There are birds in the sky.
There are trees on the ground.
Organic life = not destroyed. The Catalyst's reference is nebulous and we have only his word to take, when IT is the one causing chaos and destroying organics.Now, whether Shepard should just believe what the Catalyst says is another matter, but what he actually says is not illogical.
It's completely illogical, and also a lie.
#322
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 09:08
lillitheris
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WizenSlinky0 wrote...
Right, but it is not a sustainable solution for any great period of time. The reapers main weapon is that organics are limited to 50,000 years worth of technological devlopment. Without the cycle they could feasibly become stronger than the reapers in just 100,000 years. Create synthetics stronger than the reapers in just 100,000 years.
…Why can't the reapers develop their own tech?
If you don't limit our technology we will surpass any arbitrary limit on what we can and can't do. The protheans built a relay in one cycle. We'd break from those bonds as well.
I think it's…highly unlikely…that we (or any other race) has limitless potential.
#323
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 09:09
Shahadem
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plot holes:
1) The beam which teleports you to Earth. According to the story that beam was meant to bring dead bodies to the Citadel for harvesting. However the Citadel only arrived on Earth within the past 5 minutes to keep everyone from attaching the Crucible to it. Further there were still tons of people on it. You are telling me none of them were able to walk over and open the doors? Or maybe they could have shot TIM when he dried docking with the Citadel...
Oh speaking of doors, there is a huge hole in the back of the Citadel that is still open even when the wings are shut.
2) How is it that no one managed to find those plans in all the years humans were scouring the Martian archives for more Reaper tech but Liara manages to find the plans in a matter of days? Oh and nobody even thinks of making a backup copy. And the Reapers knew about this device through indoctrination yet did nothing about it.,,
3) Javik...How does his pod survive for 50k years with no external power supply when the Ilis pods which do have an external power supply only survive for a few hundred years? Or how is it that he even knows English? You watch two videos on human computers that don't possess the memory transferring tech he would have needed to learn English. The fact that his body was frozen also raises questions about this. Reapers would have also learned of this plan through indoctrination and likely searched for his pod.
4) Shephard handing over the Normandy. Why? She's a council Spectre on a mission to stop the Reapers. Her ship does not belong to the Alliance nor does she report to them having left to work with Cerberus earlier while still retaining her Spectre status.
5) Anyone caring that 100k Batarians died. Nobody likes the Batarians.
6) Synthesis ending. How does green light cause organics and synthetics to suddenly possess synthetics which are integrated down to the molecular level if they are organic and organic parts integrated down to the molecular level if they are synthetic. Can the Geth now give birth to and nurse Geth babies? Can a Quarian copy her soul into a brand new body to exist in two places at once?
7) Control ending: This ending is basically just the god child (not the child of Bhaal from BG, or is it?) deciding not to harvest anyone for another 50k years. They didn't need the Crucible for this one.
Many more.
1) The beam which teleports you to Earth. According to the story that beam was meant to bring dead bodies to the Citadel for harvesting. However the Citadel only arrived on Earth within the past 5 minutes to keep everyone from attaching the Crucible to it. Further there were still tons of people on it. You are telling me none of them were able to walk over and open the doors? Or maybe they could have shot TIM when he dried docking with the Citadel...
Oh speaking of doors, there is a huge hole in the back of the Citadel that is still open even when the wings are shut.
2) How is it that no one managed to find those plans in all the years humans were scouring the Martian archives for more Reaper tech but Liara manages to find the plans in a matter of days? Oh and nobody even thinks of making a backup copy. And the Reapers knew about this device through indoctrination yet did nothing about it.,,
3) Javik...How does his pod survive for 50k years with no external power supply when the Ilis pods which do have an external power supply only survive for a few hundred years? Or how is it that he even knows English? You watch two videos on human computers that don't possess the memory transferring tech he would have needed to learn English. The fact that his body was frozen also raises questions about this. Reapers would have also learned of this plan through indoctrination and likely searched for his pod.
4) Shephard handing over the Normandy. Why? She's a council Spectre on a mission to stop the Reapers. Her ship does not belong to the Alliance nor does she report to them having left to work with Cerberus earlier while still retaining her Spectre status.
5) Anyone caring that 100k Batarians died. Nobody likes the Batarians.
6) Synthesis ending. How does green light cause organics and synthetics to suddenly possess synthetics which are integrated down to the molecular level if they are organic and organic parts integrated down to the molecular level if they are synthetic. Can the Geth now give birth to and nurse Geth babies? Can a Quarian copy her soul into a brand new body to exist in two places at once?
7) Control ending: This ending is basically just the god child (not the child of Bhaal from BG, or is it?) deciding not to harvest anyone for another 50k years. They didn't need the Crucible for this one.
Many more.
Modifié par Shahadem, 27 mars 2012 - 09:11 .
#324
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 09:09
Anacronian Stryx
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Also If the catalyst thinking is logical in nature why would it even be concerned about preserving biological life in the first place?
If it's assumption is true and artificial life will wipe out all biological life then why would it care, This happening would be an act of pure evolution.
In Fact the catalyst "imposing order" results in disorder in a system that was orderly to begin with.
If it's assumption is true and artificial life will wipe out all biological life then why would it care, This happening would be an act of pure evolution.
In Fact the catalyst "imposing order" results in disorder in a system that was orderly to begin with.
#325
Posté 27 mars 2012 - 09:11
Psychlonus
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WizenSlinky0 wrote...
Psychlonus wrote...
My point was that an organization that outlaws AI is not automatically rebelled against militarily; especially if they have a superior perspective on the technological singularity. The Council did it, so can the Reapers. But unlike the council, the Reapers have control of the relays.
Right, but it is not a sustainable solution for any great period of time. The reapers main weapon is that organics are limited to 50,000 years worth of technological devlopment. Without the cycle they could feasibly become stronger than the reapers in just 100,000 years. Create synthetics stronger than the reapers in just 100,000 years.
If you don't limit our technology we will surpass any arbitrary limit on what we can and can't do. The protheans built a relay in one cycle. We'd break from those bonds as well.
The reapers are evolving AI as well and have quite a head start and the reason the protheans built a relay is because they had the galactic economy to do so. But that galactic economy wouldn't exist without reaper supplied relay usage.
